The nyt(yea I know) deep dive convinced me at least a large part of killings were carried out by Russian soldiers. Tying phones, street cameras and other evidence to specific deaths was fairly exhaustive. It seems a case of revenge killing and is still a war crime. Massacres do happen and soldiers who commit them should be prosecuted, although I doubt the nyt would spend the hours to do this and call for the prosecutions on Americans for the millions who died in the middle east.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/21/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-massacre-victims.html
You can say well the Ukrainian push for regular people to fight back or whatever leads to things like this and you can be right. I don’t think that gets these soldiers off the hook.
I’m reading through it through firefox’s reader to bypass the paywall and most of their stories are conjecture (I read most of them and skipped the rest). Even worse, they’re just that: stories. They have no dates attached, just a name, age, and “was never seen again”. I don’t doubt these people were in Bucha in March, but beyond that the NYT is not tying them to the massacre itself. Just that they were in the fighting. Like there’s telegrams screencaps saying “this person was killed march 5 can you help me move their body” but the message itself isn’t dated, very amateur.
NYT is the journal that has been cheering for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan for decades, they have a very high bar to clear if they want to be taken at face value.
The part about how they reported this is word salad, it’s the exact same method Buzzfeed used to find the “Uyghur concentration camps” that were actually factories and schools: google maps and their “sources”
There are literally videos of Russian bmps shooting people in the article I linked, maybe the ad block is blocking it. The video done with the article maybe presents it in a more digestible format.
Yeah I saw some of those videos, but Ukraine has been known (and indeed as far back as the early days of the war) to impersonate Russian soldiers and film propaganda videos.
We’re talking about the country that had a guy proudly cook human skulls in soup on video. There was also the video where a driver got scared in town and drove his armored vehicle over cars in the city trying to get away and the propaganda machine instantly claimed he was Russian, but it turned out to be UA forces.
I don’t personally know enough about Russian/Ukrainian armoured vehicles to say if they’re similar or Ukraine had somehow seized one back in March of last year but again, NYT has a very high bar to clear if they want to be taken seriously. And then we went from “Russia didn’t commit the Bucha massacre” to “oh but they did kill civilians even if it wasn’t a massacre” which I don’t know what the goal of this reframing is :/
I don’t understand are you saying these videos are fake? I understand there is propaganda I’m saying in this instance it seems pretty cut and dry.
I never changed my stance as you suggesting. With
And then we went from “Russia didn’t commit the Bucha massacre” to “oh but they did kill civilians even if it wasn’t a massacre” which I don’t know what the goal of this reframing is :/
My second comment is addressing this from your 1st response
Even worse, they’re just that: stories. They have no dates attached, just a name, age, and “was never seen again”. I don’t doubt these people were in Bucha in March, but beyond that the NYT is not tying them to the massacre itself.
The video ties many of these people to specific videos of their deaths, their phones to specific calls made to Russia by soldiers who took their phones along with eyewitness accounts. Your assertion that its just stories is not accurate. It would be valid to say the article does not account for every death (I don’t think that is what you are trying to say?) but I do feel like that line of discussion is really bad faith and gets away from the core of what we are discussing by moving the goalposts.
My second reply I made in good faith, maybe nyt was fucking with the ad blocker or you simply missed the embedded media accompanying the article. The article clearly shows more evidence than:
They have no dates attached, just a name, age, and “was never seen again”.
It often identifies multiple cctv shots of a killing and contemporaneous photos taken by hidden residents in the neighboring buildings. It doesn’t just list their name, it states the circumstances of each death and accompanies many of them with photographic and video proof to corroborate testimony and phone records.
In my personal view of the event as a whole, the evidence doesn’t show a picture of genocide that libs like editorialists at the nyt would attribute to it. It does show a specific military reprisal against civilians done by a military unit that would constitute a war crime. War crimes committed by Russia and Ukraine are not unique and a consequence of the wests utter genocidal (in this case it’s genocidal bc slavs historically and today are viewed as lesser, see “asiatic horde” portrayals online) meddling.
It feels really disheartening the way in which you have mischaracterized not only the article but what I’m trying to say. By accusing me of reframing the conversation for some unnamed “goal” it feels like you are basically calling me a fed or ignorant.
Overall im contesting that it is not correct to claim “These civilians were killed by Ukraine” As you did in your original comment. I think the proper analysis of the event is that it was a crime but it as not endemic as evidenced by comparing this conflict with one like Iraq or Vietnam.
I’m sorry in advance if I was clear or am missing the point your trying to make.
The nyt(yea I know) deep dive convinced me at least a large part of killings were carried out by Russian soldiers. Tying phones, street cameras and other evidence to specific deaths was fairly exhaustive. It seems a case of revenge killing and is still a war crime. Massacres do happen and soldiers who commit them should be prosecuted, although I doubt the nyt would spend the hours to do this and call for the prosecutions on Americans for the millions who died in the middle east. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/21/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-massacre-victims.html
You can say well the Ukrainian push for regular people to fight back or whatever leads to things like this and you can be right. I don’t think that gets these soldiers off the hook.
I’m reading through it through firefox’s reader to bypass the paywall and most of their stories are conjecture (I read most of them and skipped the rest). Even worse, they’re just that: stories. They have no dates attached, just a name, age, and “was never seen again”. I don’t doubt these people were in Bucha in March, but beyond that the NYT is not tying them to the massacre itself. Just that they were in the fighting. Like there’s telegrams screencaps saying “this person was killed march 5 can you help me move their body” but the message itself isn’t dated, very amateur.
NYT is the journal that has been cheering for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan for decades, they have a very high bar to clear if they want to be taken at face value.
The part about how they reported this is word salad, it’s the exact same method Buzzfeed used to find the “Uyghur concentration camps” that were actually factories and schools: google maps and their “sources”
There are literally videos of Russian bmps shooting people in the article I linked, maybe the ad block is blocking it. The video done with the article maybe presents it in a more digestible format.
Again nsfl bc dead bodies ect https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000008299178/ukraine-bucha-russia-massacre-video.html
Yeah I saw some of those videos, but Ukraine has been known (and indeed as far back as the early days of the war) to impersonate Russian soldiers and film propaganda videos.
We’re talking about the country that had a guy proudly cook human skulls in soup on video. There was also the video where a driver got scared in town and drove his armored vehicle over cars in the city trying to get away and the propaganda machine instantly claimed he was Russian, but it turned out to be UA forces.
I don’t personally know enough about Russian/Ukrainian armoured vehicles to say if they’re similar or Ukraine had somehow seized one back in March of last year but again, NYT has a very high bar to clear if they want to be taken seriously. And then we went from “Russia didn’t commit the Bucha massacre” to “oh but they did kill civilians even if it wasn’t a massacre” which I don’t know what the goal of this reframing is :/
I don’t understand are you saying these videos are fake? I understand there is propaganda I’m saying in this instance it seems pretty cut and dry.
I never changed my stance as you suggesting. With
My second comment is addressing this from your 1st response
The video ties many of these people to specific videos of their deaths, their phones to specific calls made to Russia by soldiers who took their phones along with eyewitness accounts. Your assertion that its just stories is not accurate. It would be valid to say the article does not account for every death (I don’t think that is what you are trying to say?) but I do feel like that line of discussion is really bad faith and gets away from the core of what we are discussing by moving the goalposts.
My second reply I made in good faith, maybe nyt was fucking with the ad blocker or you simply missed the embedded media accompanying the article. The article clearly shows more evidence than:
In my personal view of the event as a whole, the evidence doesn’t show a picture of genocide that libs like editorialists at the nyt would attribute to it. It does show a specific military reprisal against civilians done by a military unit that would constitute a war crime. War crimes committed by Russia and Ukraine are not unique and a consequence of the wests utter genocidal (in this case it’s genocidal bc slavs historically and today are viewed as lesser, see “asiatic horde” portrayals online) meddling.
It feels really disheartening the way in which you have mischaracterized not only the article but what I’m trying to say. By accusing me of reframing the conversation for some unnamed “goal” it feels like you are basically calling me a fed or ignorant.
Overall im contesting that it is not correct to claim “These civilians were killed by Ukraine” As you did in your original comment. I think the proper analysis of the event is that it was a crime but it as not endemic as evidenced by comparing this conflict with one like Iraq or Vietnam.
I’m sorry in advance if I was clear or am missing the point your trying to make.