Hello, comrades. I was wondering why we allowed “liberal” to become a dirty word? A “liberal” is someone favorable to progress or reform, and also someone in favor of individual rights and liberties.

I understand American fake liberals largely discredited the word, but in Lemmygrad forums, I see true liberalism every day: people discuss progressive ideas all the time, and are very tolerant of each other. Why do we allow American fake liberals to ruin the experience for us all? The word “liberal” should once again ring positive, while fake liberals should be called “faux liberals” which they are, don’t you agree?

  • loathesome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    24
    ·
    2 years ago

    The liberal ideology was a product of the shifting class structure with the advent of industrialisation. The emerging capitalist class wanted to wrest itself free from the tyranny of the feudal and monarchist structures that were dominant at those times. At that point, liberalism was a revolutionary force towards restructuring of classes, but now that capitalism is the dominant ideology it is a reactionary force.

    Progressivism is not an inherent part of liberalism. Progressivism as we see in mainstream discourse is a product of the combination of oppressed minorities having fought to secure rights for themselves and some sections of the ruling class trying to capitalise on their momentum to gain an upper hand their inter-bourgeoisie conflicts.

    I see true liberalism every day: people discuss progressive ideas all the time, and are very tolerant of each other.

    On what basis are you calling it true liberalism? Progenitors of the liberal ideology were very adamant that it was their right to own slaves.

    Tolerance can be and has been engendered without liberalism. Women has much better rights in the USSR compared to the United States at the same despite patriarchy still being dominant. More women were educated and working.

    • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      2 years ago

      I believe the use of the term “liberal” is highly dependent on which country or region you’re coming from. Where I live (Yugoslavia), the liberals didn’t advocate owning slaves and those that call themselves “liberals” today are very different from, say, those calling themselves “liberals” in the US. In some places, liberalism evolved and can no longer be described using the same ideological framework from over a century ago.

      I think we need some way to distinguish between American style liberals and those who are really progressive even by today’s standards, but who also describe themselves as liberals. Please note that the “mainstream discourse” is different in different parts of the world.

      • I think you’re just fundamentally misunderstanding what liberalism is in regards to socialism. Liberalism is an ideology that is the product of bourgeois control of society; it is at odds with socialists because socialists desire a proletarian controlled society. You’re describing at best social Democrats, liberals who “really aren’t that bad guys”!

        Liberalism isn’t some undefinable and regional term for Marxists like it is for, well, liberals, because we have a real definition for what it is. It is idealistic, creates a dictatorship of capital,and preserves the monstrous status quo. The status quo is bad and kills people and their souls, there are no good liberal politicians period.

        • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          2 years ago

          we have a real definition for what it is. It is idealistic, creates a dictatorship of capital,and preserves the monstrous status quo

          I understand. If you insist on this definition, then it is a problem, I agree.

      • jamabalayaman@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        2 years ago

        Lol, how is there anything at all positive about the Ex-Yu liberals? Liberal politicians in the ex-Yu countries just simp out really hard for the West, they’re all pro-EU, pro-Western, supporting US imperialism - basically looking to sell out their country to the West. Why would you support those people?

        • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          2 years ago

          There were two types of communists in ex-YU. One group advocated the Soviet style, less liberal ideas, following the Soviet lead. The other, Tito style, described themselves as more liberal.

  • boston_key_party@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    2 years ago

    Liberalism has a specific, well established ideological definition. It sells itself as progressive and it was coming from feudalism but is now a regressive force. Combat liberalism.

    • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      9
      ·
      2 years ago

      When you say “liberalism”, do you only have American liberalism in mind, or liberalism in general? I take it you don’t believe in the ability of American liberalism to reform itself?

      • stella_midnight@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        2 years ago

        You are asking a lot of questions and making many rhetorical points but it seems like you’re not reading the answers to your statements.

        Liberalism is an idealist, not materialist, perspective and it is the ideology of capitalism. This is not specific to America. It is not specific to any country. It has no place in Marxist discourse except as a point for understanding its flaws and inability to explain organized society.

        You basic question has already been answered and if you continue further down the assumption and rhetorical questioning path with these comments it’s going to sound more like someone who’s trolling rather than actually wanting more education on the term.

        • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          2 years ago

          I understand the point. It’s just that I believe things have evolved over time, and liberalism is not the same thing it once was, but I will not insist on that if people really think it is trolling.

          • Comically_Large_Tank@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            We do not, at least most here don’t, accept that there can be multiple definitions for terms.

            While of course, many people think liberalism is (____), such as the US, wich you’ve mentioned, we do not consider their definitions. To us, their conservative/liberal divide is almost non-existant.

            And when it comes to other countries, being “liberal” many times means capitalist hell - most of the West and its victims are part of “liberal capitalism” for a reason.

            For example, while everyone can laugh at the “liberals” in north america, the liberals in Fr*nce, England, Germany etc. are all sending weapons to nazis in ukraine rn. They’re causing the destabilization of most countries in the world with their sanctions. They are in no way tolerant or non-hostile.

            The values you ascribe to liberalism, tolerance amd progressivism, can only be achieved by surpassing it, by achieving socialism. Liberalism is the status quo, it’s not getting any better, only worse.

  • PorkrollPosadist@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    14
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    As others have pointed out (but it bears repeating), the distinction between idealism and materialism is fundamental. Essentially, idealists believe that ideas are the driving force of history. That the world we live in is shaped by our thoughts. On the other hand, materialists believe that history is a process of change in the material conditions, and that our thoughts are simply a reflection of these conditions.

    Why is this important? Well, Liberalism is an idealistic framework. It starts with notions like republican democracy, rule of law, free markets, civil liberties, property rights, etc. and assumes that if enough people embrace these ideas, the conditions of the world will change to reflect them. However, a careful enough reading of history would indicate that in the past two and a half centuries since the “Enlightenment,” this has never been the case. Powerful liberal institutions such as the legislatures, the courts, public executives, the press, and the armed forces they assemble to preserve their power have always served as perpetrators, enablers and apologists for the state’s most heinous atrocities.

    As materialists, we don’t look to these institutions and “great men” to deliver us to the promised land. We see these institutions as an outgrowth of the underlying material conditions and social relations. Further, we see the whole canon of Liberal philosophy as an outgrowth of the ascendent Bourgeois class’s triumph over feudal monarchy. The limited opening of civil liberties and indirect democracy suited them just fine, as their wealth and power was based in commodity production rather than direct subordination of peasants by their lords. The introduction of legislatures and due process was a benefit to this new class of Capitalists as well, by creating a regulatory board which the class could use to limit the action of individuals from leading to their collective destruction.

    As materialists, and as Marxists in particular, we see class struggle as the primary contradiction in society and the driving force of history. We do not think communism can be achieved by rhetoric, but by action. Not by convincing the oppressors to treat the oppressed more nicely, but by attacking the material basis which makes systemic inequity possible in the first place. This often puts us at odds with the hegemonic Liberal institutions which exist to carefully curate the status quo, defending capital accumulation and private property above all else.

    There are some good things which have come out of Liberalism, as Liberalism was a progressive force in its time (things like The Declaration of The Rights of Man and the Citizen, and Civil Disobedience come to mind). But that time is long past. Liberalism has completely transformed the world, and there is nothing more we can get out of it by doing more Liberalism. We are straining the limits of proletarianization and capital accumulation, and any ideological framework which centers individual liberty above collective wellbeing is woefully inadequate to deal with the situation.

    • VictimOfReligion@lemmygrad.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 years ago

      One more thing: those ideas are also the platonic ones, regarding even supernatural elements. Idealists not only form with “ideals then matter” like in “action” but literally that ideas came before even the first time they wete thought, and they form their “physical equivalent”.

  • Comically_Large_Tank@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    11
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    Not even gonna bother with why liberalism is garbage, since others have already done so.

    But this idea of “rescuing words”, “we can’t allow them to take (label) from us!” is nonsense, and will always sound as ridiculous as “let’s take back the swastika! We can’t allow the nazis to ruin it!” Symbols are meaningless for the most part.

    If you’re talking about a specific party in your country - then I’m aware many places have outlawed communist party of (country), worker’s party of (country). That is a shame, and if a genuinely good party resorts to calling itself a liberal one, we shouldn’t discard them. Yet we don’t have to cry tears for the word liberal. Those parties, either they’d call themselves communists if they could, or they’re misguided.

    • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      2 years ago

      I think I understand. The word “liberal” appears to have been thoroughly discredited for most Western leftists.

      • TheConquestOfBed
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        2 years ago

        For the past 150 years, yes. Also, see Mao’s “COMBAT LIBERALISM” to see it’s not just a western thing.

  • Redp@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    9
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    You’re the one who’s using the american definition of “liberal” as the progressive side of a conservative or liberal dichotomy, but like many pointed here, liberal also has a materialist historical definition and was a progressive force in the past but now it’s a reactionary ideology that seeks to defend capitalist institutions and offer only symbolic and hyper-individualistic “solutions” to social problems (it mainly does that in order to coopt social anxieties and protect the system) our world view and political doctrine is a complete rupture of liberal ideology and we seek to end those institutions that were historically formed (liberal democracy, private property, market economy, the bourgeois capitalist press, liberal economic “freedom”). Stop saying we’re the extension of liberalism, you almost sound like fucking Vaush, and we don’t want to retorically present ourselves as the extension of liberalism either because we want to completely disrupt the liberal world view, not build a bridge while slowly progressing foward on their failed institutions. i’ll leave here an infographic from leftypol i found on gzd, i’s not perfect and looks a little class reductionist but it might help.

    • Redp@lemmygrad.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      i feel like i should put it in another way, think like this: liberalism was a progressive force in the past creating the democratic institutions we live in today and abolishing the previous monarchist and feudal order, but nowadays, even when they see the same social symptons and anxieties as us, they want to deal with those problems by EXPANDING and “democratizing” those institutions further, either because they’re stupid and idealist or they don’t want to sacrifice the privileges those institutions provide them, it is completely opposite to us because we want to completely ABOLISH those same institutions, you can still argue reformists (“democratic socialists”) are marginally better and opposite to liberals because they supposedly want to change those institutions through liberal democratic reform, but it should be very clear why liberals are reactionary opposition for revolutionary socialists.

    • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      2 years ago

      I got used to different meaning of those words. In my country, the Communist Party was the ruling party up to the early 1990s, so for me, “reactionary” means someone who wishes to restore the communist rule. In a similar way, I interpret the word “liberal”, but I understand most people here adhere to the US-centered interpretation.

      • Redp@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        no, stupid mfer, YOU are the one using the “popular” american definition, which is liberal = socially progressive and is very overly simplistic and disconected with historical materialism. it feels like you don’t even read what people are telling you in the comments of this post, and that definition of “reactionary” doesn’t make sense either because reactionary means to move back according to the dialectical model of history, not to a more progressive country, i can only assume this is a product of westernization and decommunization that was forced on every country of the eastern block.

        • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          no, stupid mfer

          Well, clearly I was wrong, esp. when I said “people discuss progressive ideas all the time, and are very tolerant of each other.”

          disconected with historical materialism. it feels like you don’t even read what people are telling you

          I’m beginning to understand how the lack of tolerance for alternative interpretations among the leftists caused the 1948. split between Yugoslav brand of communism and the one in the Eastern Bloc. Thankfully we never followed a prescribed recipe about how we should design our own leftist state.

          “reactionary” doesn’t make sense either because reactionary means to move back according to the dialectical model of history

          To me, reaction simply means movement in the reverse direction.

          • Redp@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            Creating socialism is not about interpreting a bible and it has nothing to do with this, you’re using different meaning for a word that has a well stabilished meaning and you keep insisting on it like it changes anything in the material world, not to mention you keep conveniently ignoring half the shit people tell you and then act in so much bad faith, let me explain it again: reactionary does mean going in a reverse direction but acording to a dialetical understanding of models of production, going back from capitalist to becoming socialist is not reactionary, i feel like you have such an insanely idealist world view when you act like the word you use shapes the material reality. And again you ignored what i said about you’re being the one using the United States definition of what is liberal.

            • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              0
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              2 years ago

              you keep conveniently ignoring half the shit people tell you and then act in so much bad faith

              I have not ignored, but tried to understand what people told me. How exactly did you conclude I did anything “in bad faith”? What is wrong with you?

              you have such an insanely idealist world view when you act like the word you use shapes the material reality

              That’s not my world view. Physicists are materialists, yet they can also insist on alternative interpretations. For example, energy is the ability to do work, but according to a relativistic interpretation, it is also equivalent to matter.

              you’re being the one using the United States definition of what is liberal

              I learned that interpretetion long before I even heard about the US definition.

              • Redp@lemmygrad.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                2 years ago

                That’s not my world view. Physicists are materialists, yet they can also insist on alternative interpretations. For example, energy is the ability to do work, but according to a relativistic interpretation, it is also equivalent to matter.

                …that’s just not how natural sciences work, that’s not even what energy is, those are not different interpretation for the same thing and i’m afraid to ask how that translates into politics, that’s the dumbest thing i’ve read, i’m just done with you. This isn’t even about what liberalism is anymore, so whatever.

                • overseer@lemmygrad.mlOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  That’s exactly what energy is. Energy is a property of a body which becomes apparent when it is doing work. Work is, then, the amount of energy transferred to or from a body. In relativistic terms, E=mc^2 a.k.a. mass-energy equivalence. That relation tells you a completely different thing about energy.

                  This doesn’t translate to politics, but goes to show that completely different interpretations of the same thing can exist in materialist sciences.

  • VictimOfReligion@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    9
    ·
    2 years ago

    Because “liberal” comes from “libre marché”, more than “libertine”, since we talk about politics, not personal inclinations regarding traditions.

    And no, liberal is not the semantic opposite of “authoritarian”, since “authoritarian” is a meaningless buzzword therm.