• demizerone@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    We need a new party for the working class. The democrats are no longer that party and it cannot be saved.

    • OceanSoap
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      6 days ago

      You’re right. MAGAxMAHA has absorbed the working class and is in the process of shedding the RINOS. Looks like Dems have scooped the RINOS up

      • Formesse@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        You can’t tax an economy into prosperity, you can’t regulate a nation into prosperity, and you can’t export your industry and become prosperous.

        The Democrats and Republicans since about 1965 have worked in concert to offshore industry, tax and regulate domestic businesses out of profitability, printed more money then you can imagine - driving inflation. And the crowning jewel of all of this was killing to gold standard, with a nice improvement to the display of the crown through implementation of Free trade.

        If we had a Fair trade arrangement - that allowed for Tariffs that explicitly were put in place to undermine the value of subsidizing foreign production that is exported to your nation, we would have a very different story. If we had an explicit way or costing up production that is done to the detriment of environmental standards - China and such would have had actual pressure to clean up their environmental standards.

        Lets explore something that demonstrates the missunderstanding:

        I want to talk about China, It’s National Security concern, and Renewables. And yes - these three things are linked HEAVILY.

        A lot of people who are pro Renewables will point to China: They can do it. And sure - they can. But what they entirely miss out on, is that to China Renewable energy is THE ONLY OPTION FOR ENERGY INDEPENDENCE. And Energy independence is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIALLY if you want to be a global power. Energy independence allows the nation to be more aggressive without risk of embargo - for if China were to engage militarily in Taiwan, the shipping lanes in and out of china could be put under blockade, western insurers would basically kill the option to use them to ensure the ships going to/coming from the region - and that would dramatically reduce the amount of oil/gas coming into the nation. It would also limit food entering the nation.

        See: A Nation like Canada, or the US, who are each are (or capable of being) food AND energy independent - you can’t exactly siege them. While the last several decades manufacturing in these nations has been lacking, these nations also have tremendous mineral resource availability if they ever choose to start exploiting it at scale again: China has none of this.

        Traditionally, this is why China has a strong incentive to facilitate the power of their Empire through Trade (ex. Silk Road). Because they have such need of importing food (especially over the last couple of decades), trade is the only option China has for expanding it’s influence. China CAN NOT use military force without fear of retribution that literally starves out it’s populace of energy, and food. Basically: China is vulnerable to a nation wide siege. And China’s potential greatest Rival: The US, has the absolute means to do this.

        So, in order to solve ONE of these problems, China needs Energy Security through renewable. Oddly enough - in the mid term, as China’s populace begins to shrink it will become feasible for China to become food independent as well. Once that occurs, we may very well see China become more aggressive militarily.

        Now: Take that same principle and apply it to EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL ISSUE.

        When you start to see the agenda’s being pushed - and start ripping down and looking at the underlying motivations which come down to “we don’t want to die” and a couple other core ideas - each of which is very immediate - what we find is both Republicans, and Democrats are prone to ignoring the details in favour of pushing their agenda.

        See: Climate change is very much real - the only question is, how much is it human caused? See - the big forest fires in Western Canada/US come down to a couple of things that are piling up over the last 5 or so years. 1. Beavers killed in massive quantities through the 1700’s and 1800’s. 2. Then we have massive fire suppression. 3. Then we have clear cutting of forests. Beavers seems odd - but beavers build damns out of wood, wet wood takes A LONG time to dry, like - from green wood to dry we are talking a year of air drying in near ideal conditions per inch of thickness and the beaver damns are… wet, covered in part by silt, and it’s deep. From the time the water ways start re-routing we are probably talking like 100-150 years for that material to dry out, break down and rot, and otherwise cease helping to maintain moisture in the area. When you suppress fires heavily - underbrush builds up and as it dries, becomes perfect fuel for a forest fire. Then you have the clear cutting which accelerates the drying of the area out. Look at the time lines and: Yep, forest fires will probably remain a problem for another decade or so.

        What is going to fix the forests is: Removal of artificial damns (more fish in the water ways), Recovery of Beaver populations (they slow water ways and redirect them - they don’t stop them and control them the same way artificial ones do), and ceasing clear cut in favour of selective cuts and thinning (doing it this way does cost more per log, but - it actually can help the forest grow more lush, and a more limited area of forest support more life as more shrub and such is capable of growing in a way that allows safe spaces for wild life while providing food sources in the form of berries etc).

        You know what WILL NOT fix the forest fire situation? Fighting carbon emissions. But that is exactly the argument.

        I don’t see republicans, or democrats arguing for sensible long term models for dealing with the problems in a sensible way that can actually solve the problem. I see radical climate denial, and radical human caused arguments - and they aren’t useful, nor helpful but it’s what the media focuses on, it’s what gets spouted, because: It’s easy.

      • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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        7 days ago

        You likely won’t get another that isn’t a complete sham like they have in Russia

    • OceanSoap
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      7 days ago

      Yes, they’ll have the choice to do so for many, many years to come. :)

  • NutWrench
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    7 days ago

    You don’t get to have a “perfect” candidate. Most of the time, your choices are between which choice you dislike the least. And when the choices are between Harris and another 4 years of Donald farking Trump . . . well holy jumping shitballs . . . that should have been the easiest choice in the world.

    Fark EVERYONE who made this possible. And enjoy your precious little “protest vote” Dems. This is your fault, too.

    • Grayox
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      7 days ago

      No its the DNC’s fault. The onus is on them to win votes. I voted for Harris, but i wasnt excited to do so. That lack of excitement kept people home. Harris ran to the right and didnt give a fuck about winning leftists or the working class, banking on Liz Chaney to win her Republican votes. It didnt work. The dems need to focus on being progressive, not being slightly less worse than Republicans in the grand scheme of things.

      • federal reverse@feddit.org
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        5 days ago

        Your assignment of blame assumes that most people shouldn’t be involved in their democracies at all. But that’s kinda not how democracies are supposed to work. For the people, by the people.

        No doubt, the parties and the system share a large degree of the blame and they’re extremely far away from being perfect — but the notion that politicians have to come to you and dazzle you as a citizen is not excusable either.

        • Grayox
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          5 days ago

          Harris was literally choosen by the DNC. She’s never won a presidential primary.

  • wpb@lemmy.world
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    6 days ago

    Ah nice, you’re getting a head start on the “blame the voter” strategy for the next election. Good job!

    • ltxrtquq
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      8 days ago

      Taking the data from here and throwing it in a spreadsheet, Trump got more votes than everyone else combined, including the Libertarian party, RFK Jr, and Write-ins.

      • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.worldOP
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        8 days ago

        Looking at that chart, she would have won in Wisconsin and gotten their ten electoral votes.

        What does it look like for the rest of the states?

        • ltxrtquq
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          8 days ago

          Across the country, it was Trump: 71,825,780 Everyone else: 69,303,000

          It says at the top of the page it was last updated a day ago, but I kind of doubt the numbers will change too dramatically.

          • ABCDE@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            67m for Harris to 72m (rounded up) on the BBC; it was really not close eh.

          • AFK BRB Chocolate@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            The other person was making the point that you can’t do it by total popular vote, you have to do it by state and then look at their electoral college votes.

            • ltxrtquq
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              8 days ago

              But the electoral college is dumb and pointless. This is the first time a Republican won the popular vote since 2004, or since 1988 if you don’t want to count an incumbent victory. That alone should tell you plenty about the state of the country right now.

              • AFK BRB Chocolate@lemmy.world
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                8 days ago

                It’s dumb and pointless, but it’s literally the way a president is elected today. We have had many instances of people being elected president who didn’t win the popular vote. So if you want to try to figure out if third party candidates caused Trump to get elected, you have to look at it state by state.

              • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                8 days ago

                But the electoral college is dumb and pointless

                And its also how a president is elected in the United States, or 2016 would have gone a bit differently.

      • Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works
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        8 days ago

        But how do you count “didn’t vote”? And what about “voted on other parts but not for President because genocide or whatever”? That second group might be countable, but the first is like proving a negative

    • Darorad@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      Honestly, it doesn’t matter, even if every single 3rd party voter went for Harris, Trump still wins

        • normal_user@lemmy.one
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          7 days ago

          Maybe the Democratic party should have been better st convincing these people that didn’t vote, instead of alienating them on both the economy and foreign policy.

          But sure, go out and scream at people for not supporting Genocide and for feeling worse off financially after Biden. I’m sure that will convince a lot of people to vote for your party at the next election.

          The US is really the only country where, the more people despise the party that they vote for, theore they are told they are protecting “democracy” and “freedom”. Freedom and democracy for who ? Clearly not for the average person that felt completely left out by the only 2 electable parties.

          • WrenFeathers@lemmy.worldM
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            7 days ago

            Hope those people enjoy what trump has to offer them for the next four years, and possibly longer.

            Also- no one supported genocide. You can stop now.

            You won.

            • normal_user@lemmy.one
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              6 days ago

              If voting for a party (and maybe even telling others to vote for them) is not supporting their current action (especially when the candidate that is running is currently in power) than I don’t know what your definition of “support” is.

        • Kalysta@lemm.ee
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          7 days ago

          Some of them tried but state shenanigans prevented their ballot from counting.

  • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    Big thanks to all the Americans who voted in favor of another trump presidency. He couldn’t have won without them.

    • Empricorn@feddit.nl
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      7 days ago

      Like every election, only about 1/3 of eligible voters did. I will never again listen to a single fucking thing people who didn’t vote or those who threw theirs away on a 3rd-party candidate have to say.

      There are people in fascist authoritarian countries (incoming in 3, 2, 1…) who would love to vote and have it matter. They would even choose to die for it…

      • shapis
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        8 days ago

        You really should listen to them though. They are telling you exactly what they want.

        Ignoring them and then being surprised and mad they didn’t show up wasn’t the play. And it will continue not being the play.

        • Empricorn@feddit.nl
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          7 days ago

          What are you actually talking about? See, this is the exact disconnect I’m referencing. “Listen to them”? How can I, when they have voluntarily made themselves voiceless. Say what you will about the maga freaks, at least they believe in something and do the bare minimum for their cause by voting.

          I completely understand being disillusioned with the election process or even thinking bOtH SiDeS are the same, but… In an election for President, Senators, House and local Representatives, ballot measures, etc, if you’re eligible to vote and don’t, you’re part of the problem. Even if you’re okay with the status quo for yourself, children, friends, family, and vulnerable people, you’re still taking a large risk in such a close election as it’s a transitional time and no one knew what the exact results would be…

          I know that’s quite a rant. But all I’m really saying is they have no right to complain after sitting on the sidelines when it mattered, and I simply won’t listen to a thing they say now

          • normal_user@lemmy.one
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            7 days ago

            Why would anyone vote for the Democratic Party ?

            Like sure, you need to be racist and almost a Nazi to vote for the Republican Party but what did the Democrats bring to the table ?

            Nothing, Kamala was campaigning on nothing because she told everyone she was going to be like Biden. By looking at polls you will we that people are feeling economically worse off right now that 4 years ago. Biden did this, the Democrats did this, if they wanted to win they would have run a different candidate (or actually done the primaries) that would become a symbol for change.

            But instead they just decided, undemocratically, to run the VP, the one person other than Biden that is responsible for the policies of the last 4 years. And then Kamala H. even said to people at rallies that she was going to be like Biden !? Thats crazy, it really makes you wander if the Democratic Party even cares about winning or if they are just controlled opposition at this point. After what they did to Bernie Sanders twice, I think we all know has things really are.

            Also let’s remember that Harris also decided that she would campaign in favor of Genocide ! How crazy is that, the party supposedly on the left was already completely supporting Israel and they said they were going to be supporting them.

            But unlike the Republicans, K. Harris would also say some empty words about how bad killing Palestinians was. Then she would obviously reassure everyone that she still wanted to support Israel until the end, because she can’t risk people confusing her for an actual leftist.

            After all they were trying to convince this inexistent moderate suburban white republican that actually wants to vote Dems. And for that they abandoned their whole base.

            Trump is going to be worse ? Yes, for sure. Did Kamala Harris offer any alternative, anything at all to convince people to go out and vote ? Did she actually convince people she would be more than just slightly less evil ? No, she did not.

            Also if you go back and listen to her plans for immigration and the border, there is literally no difference from how she talks and how a Republican talks.

            That’s why she lost. She didn’t care about the Democratic voters, and for this reason they didn’t show up. It is up to the political party to convince people of their policy. Democracy dies when you can’t vote for what’s important to you, because at that point, why even vote ? The politicians don’t care about you anyway.

            Blaming voters is wrong, it is the fault of the Democratic Party and it deserve to loose every election until the reallign with their voters. Until they propose to them popular policies and show interest in their support.

      • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        And despite that he still got millions of votes. Millions of Americans want this. We’re a country of terrible people.

      • htrayl@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        It doesn’t matter. You are ignoring the rot at the core. Even if people turned out and kamala won - it Trump should have broken the Republican party. It should not have been a competition.

        • nzeayn@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          trump voters don’t make any* deflections on who they are. the cruelty IS what they vote for. it’s not gonna break the republican party, it’s what they’ve been asking for. Trump just tapped into it. can’t do anything about those fuckers and trying isnt worth it.

          I want to look at the people who just sat this round out because it wasn’t exciting and wouldnt really harm them. going back to “this isnt who we are” as a culture and pleading with them is not gonna work.

          • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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            8 days ago

            They haven’t finished counting the votes yet. Unless you are somehow comparing to the exact point in the count 4 years ago, this type of analysis is very premature. Except even that would be a bad idea because covid made things weird in 2020.

            It’ll be a little while until we get a good handle on turnout. Until then don’t read too much into it.

  • IHeartBadCode@fedia.io
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    8 days ago

    Yeah, both parties went down from 2020 counts. We literally had something like 18m or 20m who didn’t show up combined.

    Wild stuff. Oh well, we rode this roller-coaster once, we ride it again. Maybe this round we don’t lose 2% of our population?

    • snooggums@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      I’ll bet we never find out how many were denied the ability to vote because of registration purges, bomb threats, and other malicious voter suppression.

      But the fact that states both voted for abortion access at the state level and then also voted in all Republicans who will pass a national ban shows the voting population is stupid enough that this was the likely outcome anyway.

      Fuck this country.

      • evidences@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        I think the Republican voters are to stupid or just in denial that Congress would ever vote for an abortion ban, even though they’ve clearly signaled they would. My boss is very right wing and last night he said to me that he thought it was weird all the commercials he saw for Sherrod Brown here in Ohio mentioned protecting abortion when it’s legal here. When I said a nation ban would supercede our state constitution he just straight told me Congress would pass a national ban.

      • GraniteM@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        I literally heard an interview with a woman who said she voted Republican because, on the one hand, abortion “isn’t that big of a deal” and ought to be left up to the states, but on the other, “doctors shouldn’t be allowed to abort babies after they’re born.”

        So this person thinks that doctors are murdering babies… and that should be allowed on a state by state basis. Which… boy oh boy, I’m not sure what to even do with a mind that works that way.

        • MutilationWave@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          I saw a comment earlier from a person who thinks abortion is chopping up a baby inside the womb and then sucking out the pieces.

    • sudo_shinespark@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      Nah, those are rookie numbers. Gotta pump those numbers up. And they have a whole playbook ready for it this time, so things are gonna get interesting and tragic sooner than later.

      Bonus points that if we make through, we can look forward to new exciting wars about water resources and inhospitable climate problems

    • FenrirIII@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      Honestly, I’m praying for another pandemic. This world is so broken that it needs a reset.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      Maybe this round we don’t lose 2% of our population?

      Definitely not.

      It will be much higher than that this time.

    • theparadox@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      I’m not seeing turnout down by 20m. Where are you seeing this data? Note, we haven’t even finished counting all the votes.

      Admittedly, I was expecting there to be overwhelmingly high turnout and there wasn’t that from what I’ve seen.

      The dude won the popular vote. I’m sure a lot of the shady bullshit that happened all around the country to suppress voting inflated his lead a little bit but I don’t think it was substantial enough to explain this.

      • kn0wmad1c@programming.dev
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        8 days ago

        Nearly every news outlet has reported record voter turnout, but look at the vote counts from 2020 vs this year.

        • theparadox@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          Wait until all the ballots are counted. Ballots still being counted aren’t in those totals but, obviously, they finished counting 2020. Shit, California is still like 60% counted at this point. And they’re at 10 million votes counted… that’s like 6.5 million more votes just estimating CA.

  • BigDiction@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    When you lose an election this badly, people are clearly not buying you’re selling.

    But damn I did not expect so many people to sit out against the guy who did the coup and amongst all the other shit. If there is any light ahead, I think it’s that this L forces the Democratic Party to lean back left with their campaign promises, and whatever power they have left to affect policy.

    • KimjongTOOILL@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      They are fucking incapable of learning this.

      Bernie polled great against Trump but they snubbed him for Hillary and we lost because of it.

      The only reason Biden won was because he wasn’t Trump and we were tired of him at that point.

      Kamala had a chance to swing a little more left but continued to try to court moderate conservatives and the suburbs instead.

      They just can’t get it through their heads that: Trump and maga are winning as a reaction of “fuck the system”. This mostly stems from corporations and the filthy rich not being taxed enough and us not spending enough on social programs. That energy could have been captured and utilized by running a leftist.

      But instead we get milquetoast business as usual bullshit

    • SimplyTadpole@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      8 days ago

      If there is any light ahead, I think it’s that this L forces the Democratic Party to lean back left with their campaign promises, and whatever power they have left to affect policy.

    • bitwaba@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      I think it’s that this L forces the Democratic Party to lean back left with their campaign promises, and whatever power they have left to affect policy.

      Yeah, that’s what everyone thought after 2016 as well.

    • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      If they go far left they’ll lose all backing and funding, making them completely useless. It’s just the way the system is built. I’m Canadian but I see you guys had a choice to pick a bad but fixable administration, and instead just let the fascist through. I mean you can chide the Democrats all you want for the result, but it was the left who sat out and it’s those same people who are gonna suffer

      • Cataphract
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        7 days ago

        Bernie Sanders set records for both 2016 and 2020.

        The number of Democratic voters is reported to be around 49 million. (link) As of 9 a.m., Vice President Kamala Harris had 66.5 million votes to Trump’s 71.56 million. (link)

        Plenty of the left showed up, in 2020 biden got 81,283,501 in the popular vote. That’s near 15 million disenchanted voters who didn’t return to the polls for this administration. But let’s blame the 15 million people, surely they must all be wrong and not the DNC’s strategy or anything.

      • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        Meeting Arab American voters is not “far left.” Biden actively diverted his campaign stops in Michigan to avoid meeting them and Harris campaign refused to let Palestinian-Americans endorse her on camera at the DNC.

        It’s nor far left to meet Palestinian-Americans and Lebanese Americans who lost loved ones in bombings. Biden routinely met with Israeli-Americans in the White House and family members of hostages and posted photos with them on his instagram. Meeting just ONE Arab-American family is something he never did, and saying that would be a far left thing to do is frankly offensive.

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    8 days ago

    Yes, a Very Special Thanks to the morally pure angels who refused to vote for Kamala Harris because they were standing on high ground about some issue they disliked her on. Well done, fuckheads.

      • Barbarian@sh.itjust.works
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        It really was (or at least the Democratic party’s fault). If you take every single third party voter, assign them to Kamala, she still loses.

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          8 days ago

          The real problem here is that people needed to be convinced that voting was worth it when Trump was a candidate. How the fuck do you even reach someone with such a pathetic lack of concern for the world? Seriously you people think if she vowed to stop Israel, magically these dip shit knuckle dragging morons would’ve jumped at the chance to vote for her. Millions of people told us they give zero fucks. And fuck them for that.

          • Barbarian@sh.itjust.works
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            7 days ago

            American voters in general dgaf about things that don’t affect them. Israel is irrelevant to your median American voter.

            • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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              Yeah I agree. After this result you cannot argue that Americans in general give a flying fuck about their neighbor. It’s fucking pathetic. Zero faith in America, maybe humanity, left here.

  • Ioughttamow@fedia.io
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    Hey, at least Palestine won’t be a stumbling block next election. 1 state solution it is I guess, sigh

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      Trump is going to have/help Israel just erase Gaza and the Palestinians as a people, there will be no need for any “solution”. And this is apparently what all these people sitting out wanted in the end. Hope they enjoy the view from their high horse.

        • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Lying is cheap, especially when the media just repeats your rallies without issue.

          The moment trump got free press in 2016 was the worst point. They could have ignored him and we would have been doing Clinton vs Cruz.

          • ryathal@sh.itjust.works
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            Truth is literally free…

            He got press because Clinton wanted it that way and he was the candidate, you can’t just not cover them.

            • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              He wasn’t always the nomation. It should have been:

              “Wow Trump is trying to run. Weird. Anyways, moving on.”

              You look at all the people giving “commentary” as they play his full speeches of racism and go “lol no one will listen to that”. When clearly a lot of networks covering an (at the time) niche candidate gave him more attention.

              Also, lying is cheap. Investigating the truth costs time and labor. I can just say “The president is actually always mind controlled by Jews who are actually aliens” and it will take reasonable people longer to explain why that’s stupid, or look into why someone says it.

    • 4oreman@lemy.lol
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      8 days ago

      to be fair, the other candidate only had a few months. Biden is largely to blame.

  • BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    “If liberals are so fucking smart why do they lose so goddamn always?”

    • Will McAvoy “The Newsroom”

    I don’t think it’s fair to blame voters when it’s the politician’s job during s campaign to convince people they’re worth voting for.

    Adopting unpopular centrist policies and aligning more and more with centrist Biden’s policies as the campaign went on is just going to fill voters with apathy.

    The Democrats, once again, didn’t give us a candidate to vote for, only one to vote against. And I think the American people are sick of that carrot-stick routine, the Dems need to actually adopt popular policies.

    And the establishment Dems are going to fight that tooth and nail.

      • BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world
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        I voted for Harris. Roughly 60% of American voters who are eligible don’t vote.

        Harris needed to convince those voters that she was either worth voting for, or Trump was worth voting against.

        She failed to convince them of either, so they stayed home, along with 14 million Dem voters she failed to convince to vote blue like they did in 2020.

      • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        We didn’t. Most people did. Candidates running for office are a popularity contest. Biden has low approval ratings, Harris said she’s Biden and wouldn’t change most polices.

        Trump is much much worse, and I voted for Harris in California despite knowing it didn’t change how North Carolina or Iowa could have gone.

        At some point “I’m not Trump” gets tired and going “I’m just like the guy in office who was so unpopular he dropped out, but I will give Republicans what they want on border policy and appoint them to my cabinet” reads more like Diet Trump than “I will give you policies that sway people away from fascism.”

        • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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          Even a single life less harmed is worth it for that vote. People clearly arent that ethically committed if they needed to be convinced to vote against this

      • BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world
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        You have every right to be angry, but your anger is pointed at the wrong people. Just like the elite divide the masses with bullshit culture wars, the Democratic party elite want you to blame your fellow voters rather than their unpopular platform and abysmal campaign.

        If you can vote, you’re a fucking adult. stop acting like a fucking god damned spoiled child.

        I’ve seen this attitude repeated ad nauseum these last few weeks, from people discussing Harris with conflicted undecided voters. And your attitude and aggression is exactly what all of them received, and yet you all wonder why people may have stayed home?

        People were vocal about their complaints regarding the Democrat’s platform, and they were ignored. If democracy is so important, why the fuck couldn’t the Democratic party adopt more progressive policies?!

        Like, apparently it’s completely reasonable to expect people to do what you say with no promise of even addressing their concerns, nevermind actually addressing, but it’s completely unreasonable to just choose not to participate in the system?

        You’re not entitled to someone’s vote, regardless of the circumstances. Stop blaming your fellow countrymen and women for not feeling represented, and start screaming at the party who fucking refused to represent them.

        Stop blaming your fellow Americans for the Democrats running a platform so unpopular, 14 million Democrats that voted in 2020 chose to stay home.

        Stop blaming your fellow Americans for the DNC hiding Biden’s mental acuity issues for well over a year, humiliating himself (and our country) on stage at his debate before hastily cramming a candidate the party didn’t have a say in, and running her on policies that their constituents were vocally against.

        As a trans woman, you’re damn right I’m fucking terrified, and I’m fucking angry.

        But my anger is at the Democratic party, who decided that spending decades appeasing the Republicans and giving the American people nothing that they’ve been promised, who knew the consequences of this election and decided a 2016 rerun was the only viable option, who paraded Republican after Republican across the DNC stage while snubbing Palestinian Democrats from speaking, and then sending Bill Clinton to lecture the electorate about why Israel has the right to genocide Palestine.

        The Democratic party had fascism at the gates, and passed all responsibility onto their voting base instead of checks notes listened to their fucking constituents.

        So don’t get angry at your disillusioned and apathetic neighbor, they’re a symptom of the system being unrepresentative of the people for so many years.

        Direct your anger at the DNC, demand they start listening to their base, demand that they start trying to garner non-voters with popular policies instead of moving further right to appeal to moderate Republicans.

        Or better yet, send them letters regularly, like I plan to do, reminding them that all of the awfulness the American people are living through is a direct result of their entitlement and hubris. Maybe throw in their that they could probably get elected if they actually listened to the American people and ran on policy that reflected what they want.

        But that’s probably too radical, let’s just keep blaming the electorate for wanting to participate in a system that represent them, not one that runs on “Please, we promise, last time we’re delaying fascism/the other guy, for realz for realz this time, we’ll totally enact all the laws, just give us more money you don’t have and give us four more years.” But, I’m clearly not as educated and smart as the people running the DNC, I mean, I haven’t lost 4 out of the last 7 elections trying to run the same playbook everytime,

        They just have to run a candidate people want to vote for, not a candidate people have to vote for. But they won’t, because the DNC seems to think they know what people need better than they do. And their voting results this year clearly show that…

        • futatorius@lemm.ee
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          7 days ago

          How much did voter purges and other voter-suppression measures contribute to the lower turnout?

        • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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          A reasonable person votes against the enemy after a certian point, even if that means electing a fucking banana. Why did you need to convinced to vote against Trump? Why wasnt that a given? One of you answer us that please

          • BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world
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            A reasonable person understands running the same strategy over and over and expecting different results is literally the definition of insanity.

            But it’s perfectly ok for the DNC to trot out nothing but the status quo for their voters? After over a decade, they can’t promise anything beyond “not fascism” to their voters and the rest of the population?

            And I already answered you: Harris needed to convince voters to vot for her, or against Trump. That’s a politicians job during a campaign, and she failed miserably.

            So now explain to me why the average voter has to keep swallowing a shit sandwich, but the political party that keeps failing using the same failed strategy, why don’t they have to change? Why is it so unreasonable for them to adopt more popular, progressive policies that voters actually want?

            I’ll wait, you can go ahead and explain that.

            • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.worldOP
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              People weren’t happy so the DNC booted Biden and put in Harris who is a strong candidate given the situation.

              Still the fickle left wasn’t happy and over ten million voters who voted Biden before wouldn’t turn out for her.

              I wouldn’t blame the democrats for going harder right now to both eat away at the republican’s support and target the people who actually turn out to vote.

              Trump got less votes in 2024 than 2020.

        • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
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          your response is tone-deaf and meaningless.

          this election was an armed robbery and 20 million witnesses just watched it happen because they wanted to “teach the victim a lesson.” how fucked up is that?

          I blame the DNC, I blame them for dragging us to this point.

          I blame the RNC, I blame them for pushing us to this point.

          But most of all, I blame Americans that idly stood by and let this happen. You had the opportunity to swing everything blue. had the opportunity to pressure them for four more years. had the opportunity to set the stage for some real change in 2028.

          you fucks sold us up the fucking river for your pride and arrogance.

          I’m fucking mad as hell, and you want to tell me where I need to direct my anger? Fuck your arrogant idealistic dream. You want me to direct my anger? How about I direct my fucking anger at you? The one who’s trying to fucking manipulate me into attacking their opposition. I fucking know who I’m mad at.

          fuck you, and fuck those 20 million Americans that willfully withheld their votes. I hope every single one of you chokes on your arrogance and pride when you’re fucking starving in the camps those monsters are going to put us in.

            • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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              This is just ridiculous, it was not an “armed robbery.” You don’t need to exaggerate to try and make your misguided point.

              Its called a metaphor

              How fucked up is it to demand someone’s vote while telling them they’re families lives don’t matter? The DNC did that, not anyone else. That’s been their whole play entire fucking campaign.

              Answer me this. How fucked up is it to tell women and lgbt people that our lives are worth less than people halfway across the world who hate us just as much as Republicans. Because thats what you abstainers did.

              They pressured them the last two years and the DNC refused to budge on damn near anything.

              If you tried for two years and got nowhere, maybe the blame circles back to yall not accepting a clear “no”.

              It wasn’t non-voters who lied about Biden’s mental health. It wasn’t non-voters who pushed him through the majority of the primary while keeping pertinent health information of his secret. It wasn’t non-voters who humiliated their candidate, party, and country during a national debate because they thought they could hide his mental health decline. It wasn’t non-voters who then pushed through a candidate the constituency didn’t nominate, on a platform they didn’t want, while suppressing any criticism of the DNC.

              It wasnt the DNC either. Biden chose to try to run, against the advice of basically everyone around him. On the other hand, you might be the only person who isnt a Republican to give a shit about wanting a primary. Definitely the first Ive encountered.

              100,000 people cast protest votes in Michigan alone over the Palestinian genocide, which is more than the number of votes Harris lost Michigan by. They put pressure on the DNC to take them seriously and heed their concerns, and what did the non-voters, I’m sorry, the DNC do in response?

              See what I said above about ignoring a clear no, and telling the rest of us marginalized Americans we matter less than Palestine.

              The Democrats have promised “real change is just four years away, we promise this time” since I was fucking born. Guess what? That bullshit excuse isn’t flying anymore. Being sold the fucking status quo every fucking election cycle is old, and it’s cost the DNC 4/7 the last elections.

              The reason the DNC doesn’t push progressive candidates, above all else, is that progressives cannot be counted on to vote. Why would they appeal to you when they know the moderate conservatives will at least show up.

              You all demanded everyone vote the way you wanted, regardless of how they felt. So yeah, I am telling you where to direct your fucking anger, and it shouldn’t be at people like me.

              We demanded people vote against an obvious evil which would be worse for Palestine than Harris. That was never up for debate. The most basic of realpolitik should’ve told you all to vote for her regardless if saving Palestinian lives was your goal. As evidended by…

              Who voted fucking Harris, btw, you fucking twat.** Begrudgingly, despite my displeasure with almost everything she stood for. And if you look at my comment history, you’ll see I remained adamant that no one should vote for Trump while still trying to paint a fucking realistic picture of the situation.

              Congratulations, you get a cookie. Now why couldnt the other 14,999,999 work that one out?

              Didn’t realize “maybe the DNC should have platformed on policies that their constituents were vocal about during the campaign” was an arrogant idealistic dream.

              Guess I should just settle for the status quo and hope the party that just showed me they wouldn’t budge will maybe budge in four years.

              Wanting the DNC to field a more progressive candidate isnt wrong. Expecting them to do so in response to not voting is an idealistic dream, and blaming them for siding with the faction that can be trusted to show up is the arrogance.

              You want some hard fucking truths from someone who’s supposedly your fucking enemy?

              NO ONE fucking owes you anything in life. They don’t owe you their protection, they don’t owe you the truth, they don’t owe you fucking anything.

              Noone owes us protection, but we owe Palestine? That makes sense/ And, tell me again, which candidate was better for them?

              So when you entitled fucking children scream and shout about all the people who didn’t vote, you need to remember that they don’t owe you fucking shit.

              You weren’t entitled to anyone’s vote simply by virtue of wanting to stop fascism, so fuck right off with this entitlement that all fucking liberal elite assholes seem to think they deserve.

              So Im not entitled to anyones vote, as an American trans woman. But Palestine is? You are at best inconsistent, and at worst a hypocrite. And the fact stopping fascism wasnt a good enough sell to earn those votes says more about you than our entitlement

                • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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                  So what would you want people to do when their kids/grandkids ask them what they did to stop a genocide? Isn’t Lemmy always screaming about, regardless of the reasoning, a Nazi is a Nazi.

                  I cant have kids, but if Im ever in that position Ill tell them exactly what I told you: I did not believe that position politically viable and am perfectly willing to gamble in lives because you have to be in politics. Thats alot of what politics is. Additionally, they sure didnt give af about preventing my genocide at home. In fact, alot of them probably support it if anything, so why tf should I care about theirs halfway across the world?

                  So it’s ok to force me to support a genocide, rather than shift your p[arty’s platform to reflect what the voters actually want?

                  “Your issue clearly didn’t matter, so stfu and blame yourself for having fucking convictions.”

                  Or, here’s an idea: if the same people are bringing the same concern to you consistently over the course of two fucking years, maybe you, the candidate, need to rethink your. policies.

                  Or, maybe they kept it up despite being ignored for two years because it was that fucking important to them as an issue.

                  What a fucking joke, you seriously read what you’re writing here and go, “Oh yeah, I am so smart, I know everything.”

                  Im gonna come back to this alot. But yes, sometimes it IS inconvenient. You clearly either do not understand or reject the idea of realpolitik.

                  Your issue clearly didn’t matter, so stfu and blame yourself for having fucking convictions."

                  Or, here’s an idea: if the same people are bringing the same concern to you consistently over the course of two fucking years, maybe you, the candidate, need to rethink your policies.

                  Or, maybe they kept it up despite being ignored for two years because it was that fucking important to them as an issue.

                  What a fucking joke, you seriously read what you’re writing here and go, “Oh yeah, I am so smart, I know everything.”

                  It clearly was ONLY important to you. Maybe that’s an unpleasant reality, but its the one we get to deal with. Much like the fact that most Americans are either facist, stupid, or both. Thats a horrible situation that makes politics real unpleasant, but pretending it isnt is not exactly a winning strategy. Most of us either dont care about Gaza enough to change our position, or dont think doing so is actually a viable strategy rn.

                  Look at exit polls, most people cite the economy and immigration as concerns, Palestine isnt even on the chart. Obviously we cant poll voters who didnt vote, but Trump actually lost votes from 2020, just not as badly. Unless we assume that all 15 million of those dropped voters stayed home over Gaza- which isnt likely given said exit polls- there are more Americans voting FOR Fascism because they blame Dems for the economic effects of the pandemic, and cant stand sharing the country with Latin Americans; than there likely are Americans who stayed home over Gaza. If you have a poll which suggests orherwise, Id love to see it

                  And the primary thing makes zero sense to me, the Dems haven’t had an actual primary since Obama. 2016 they fucked Bernie over despite his popularity and forced Clinton on us, they basically forced through Biden by keep Warren in long enough to leech voters off a second Bernie run, and then we didn’t even have one.

                  So the DNC tells the American people, “You don’t get a say in who your candidate will be, and your candidate will also ignore you completely, but you have to vote for them.” And you blame the voters for being apathetic? Yeah, makes sense, it’s the fault of those not being represented for not being represented.

                  This used to be how both parties worked just as a point of fact. Primaries are a fairly new thing in the grand scheme. Its not your fault for not being represented, but it is for not taking the lesser evil. You chose not to vote, and that is your right. But that enables the worse candidate to win sometimes, you cant pretend like that isnt the case. Your vote and the DNC do not exist in a vacuum.

                  This is just elitist entitlement, “sEe WhAt i SaId AbovE aBoUt a ClEaR nO,” fuck off. You don’t get to dictate yes and no, the voters told the DNC how it would work: you change your policy on Palestine, or you don’t get our votes.

                  That wasnt me trying to dictate anyway, I just had already spoken on the subject and didnt want to repeat myself. Its not elitist to not say the same thing twice.

                  The DNC, through their arrogance, hubris, and entitlement, decided they felt the voters were bluffing, and called them on it.

                  And the voters didn’t bluff. Sure sounds to me like they all told the DNC “no,” and maybe y’all need to fucking get over it and accept that No you got from your base.

                  Again, exit polls. Palestine wasnt a big issue to anyone except you, and the Dems are a big tent party with liberals, never-Trumpers, proper Socialists, ect to try to appeal to. Thats what being in a coalition is. Sometimes you have to make big compromises. Or you can choose not to vote and risk sinking us all, which- to reiterate- is your right, but seems like a tactically foolish decision when Trump is objectively going to be even worse. Why, if you care so much about this genocide and are so unwilling to compromise, would you rather risk selling them out completely instead of mitigating the damage. Whether you like it or not, whether it was wise or not, the DNC was not going to compromise. An explicitly anti-Israel position was not on the table. So why would you risk electing the candidate who is even more pro-Israel if you care so much about Gaza?

                  And since we’re gonna play this bullshit “Explain to me why women’s and LGBT lives matter less than Palestinians,” I want you to explain to me why you weren’t standing with your Arab American brothers and sisters demanding their voices be heard? Where was your support of their concerns, I mean, it’s only fair you supported them like you’re demanding they support you, right?

                  I voted for Harris because, among those concerns for LGBT and womens rights, I also understood Trump would be even worse for Gaza. Would an explicitly anti-Israel candidate be nice, sure. But that wasnt on the table. That is me standing with those people affedtee in the most effective way available to me.

                  And then I want you to explain to me why those Palestinian lives matter less than American LGBT and women’s lives, because I sure would love to know why you feel entitled to their vote but they aren’t entitled to their lives.

                  Theyre not entitled to my vote either, and you cant be surprised a trans woman doesnt feel much sympathy for people whos religion is explicitly misogynistic and transphobic. Setting that aside, again, I did vote in the best way available to me for them.

                  And hows their strategy of trying to win moderates over instead going? Lost four out of the last 7 elections? Real winning strategy there, maybe it’ll work if we just double down and try to win even more moderate voters.

                  And the DNC doesn’t push progressive candidates because they don’t want progress, you fucking muppet. They’re the other side of the conservative coin, they only care about the status quo.

                  They have to compromise, the DNC, the voters are done and aren’t going to compromise anymore. And you can plug your ears and “but but but,” all you fucking want: Harris didn’t convince people she was worth voting for, full stop.

                  She fucking failed, she ran a loser campaign, and she fucking lost. And you’re so “vote blue no matter who” you can’t, or won’t, understand that people aren’t going to vote unless there’s something worth voting for.

                  Every policy was “Well, we’re just not gonna be as evil,” basically. And people were expected to save democracy based on that? They had a fucking grand slam lined up (I know you like metaphors and such) ready to go, and Harris decided to bunt instead of swinging for the fences.

                  Considering you’re so concerned about Gaza, I would think preventing the situation from getting even worse would be enough of a sell. If you think democracy is a good- and Im inferring you do- theb saving democracy should’ve earned your vote completely irrespective of who was running or what their policy was provided they will in fact save democracy. A rotten ham sandwhich shouldve earned your vote if you were being logically consistent. But you arent.

                  First: I’m a piece of shit when you think I haven’t voted for Harris, and then when I tell you I do, you mock me as if that was the bare minimum and I’m an idiot for think it means anything. So which is it, do you want to celebrate those who did vote for Harris, or was that just the expectation that you felt entitled to?

                  Second: I’ve already answered this and you just keep plugging your ears and screaming it’s the voters

                  Apparently Americans are so unhappy with the status quo, 14 million Dems chose to stay home. Maybe the Dems need to figure out what they did that made them so unpopular, and stop blaming their voting base for their failures.

                  One can do idiotic things without being an idiot. That being said, you want me to stand with Arab-Americans and Palestine by extension, here you go. Why should they trust voters like those who stayed home to advocate for them when- if your demands for justice are not conceded to- you would then elect the zionists over the status quo? Gaza is not a boolean vairable where things are so bad it doesnt matter what you do if you dont get justice, things can still get even worse. And you- who cares so much about advocating for them- would rather that happen if immediate justice is not onbthe table. You arent an idiot, but thats an idiotic position. (1/2, second part later. Im at work)

  • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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    For a non-American this thread and other like this are hilarious: the people who spent the last year campaigning “Vote Not Trump” now blame everybody else but themselves for how their strategy of having a candidate who did nothing to appeal to voters and sold fear of the other instead, failed miserably.

    So they post tons of such “it’s the fault of everybody else” memes as topics were they and other members of the tribe make posts with wild ass reasons for why it really is everybody else’s faults and responding to such posts from others by basically saying “yeah, you’re so right”, like one gigantic circle jerk, pretty much a continuation of what they were doing for a whole fucking year - a big fat circle jerk whilst not paying attention to anybody else - only now they’re doing it with sad faces.

    Sure, it’s the 14 millions who stayed home that are to blame, not the massive incompetence of the DNC and the mindless tribalist muppets trading dumb Trump and Vance memes whilst thinking that their “leaders” deserved a win merelly for wearing the right pin on their jacket and not being Trump, without needing to actually have policies that appealed to their natural voters.

    “Bloody natural Democrat voters, not going to polls and doing what they’re supposed to do!”

    What a heady, heady mix of stupidity and sense of entitlement.

    Reminds me of the whole saying: “Only two things are infinite - the Universe and Human Stupidity - and we’re not sure about the first”

    • Saryn@lemmy.world
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      Here’s the thing though - more than one thing can be true at the same time (some people even say that three things can be true at the same time - shoking, I know).

      DNC incompetent? Sure.

      How about not voting against a fascist because “DNC incompetent”? Sounds like “a heady mix of stupidity and sense of entitlement”.

      Sincerely, A fellow non-American

      • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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        You’re participating in the same circle jerk.

        You’ve concluded that Trump is a huge Fascist and a danger beyond all other considerations (but not the Democrats, even though they’re giving weapons to an ethno-Fascist regime committing Genocide which is literally “supporting Fascism”) and you reached that conclusion from consuming Democrat propaganda in places like Lemmy with no actual use of skepticism, so now you repeat it.

        Meanwhile all those people who don’t think like you and all the posters whose posts you read here, had very different levels in the like-hate Trump scale, and the like-dislike Democrats one, and the trust-distrust what the Democrats/Republicans say scales, the politically engaged scale, the thinking that my vote makes a difference to my life scale, the what matters to me most in life scale and other such scales in human belief and behaviour that together add up to make them or not go vote and for whom they vote, which in this election also included things like the flexibility or inflexibility of one’s principles thanks to the Democrats activelly breaking a really strong set of principle for lots of people when they supported with weapons the commiting of a Genocide in first Gaza and now also Lebanon.

        The “incompetence” was the Democrats with their words and actions targetting a point in all those scales that turned off a lot more people that it turned on. The 14 million less Democrat votes make it undeniable that it wasn’t Trump that conviced those votes to flip, it was the Democrats that failed at convincing enough people to vote for them, so clearly their words and actions turned off from voting a lot of people.

        The “entitlement” is the idea that everybody is equally politically aware as you, trusting about what the Democrats say of Trump as you, fearful of Trump as you, trusting that voting maters as you and so on. I’ve been a member of two different political parties over the years (in two different countries) and this blindness is incredibly common amongst party members: such strongly politically active and highly tribalist people just don’t get it that most of voters don’t think like them, not even close and it gets worse when they end up in circle jerks like the one here in Lemmy during the US Presidentials - they basically just strengthen each other’s beliefs in that what’s right or wrong, what will work or not work to help their side and what people think or don’t think, all with no actual proof being involved just the say so of like minded people, a pretty straighforward “groupthink” situation.

        (In fact it was my experience with canvassing and leafletting in those two parties and countries that opened my eyes to the reality that in terms of engagement and trust in politics most people are nowhere like you and me.)

        Even more “entitlement” is the idea that your values, forecasts and interpretation of the world are the right ones and those of the ones who didn’t vote are wrong, then compounded with the idea that others should just do as you think they should and if they don’t they’re wrong (all of which on display in this meme and all the type of posts here blaming the 14 millions) - this a pretty straightforward “I know best and others should follow my lead”, pure entitlement.

        The “stupidity” is that the kind of people that have been engaging in this sort of thinking and posture are unable to, now that it has been shown beyond doubt that is complete total bollocks, review their own beliefs, behaviour and ideas in light of it. Instead they just blame everybody else like self-deluded simpletons.

        • Saryn@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          Whole lot of conjecture and presumtions, barely any substance to reply to.

          Have a good one. Make sure you stay away from that “democrat propaganda”.

    • Formesse@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      Lets be honest: The Not trump vote, probably made the election results as close as it was. And that might be difficult for some to wrap their head around - trump is unlikable, but: To anyone dealing with the fall out of certain choices Biden made attacking trump era policies (I’m thinking of one in particular), it’s a bit of a no brainer. This brings us to three key issues that are causing problems in US politics, but western politics in general:

      1. The Stay in Mexico agreement is the perfect example of how Opposing political representatives have a “everything the opposition does is mostly evil and bad, and it needs to be killed as soon as possible” - and this goes for EVERYTHING. If we could have sane, nuanced discussions and come to agreements and policies we would see a LOT less whip lash, and a LOT MORE cooperation. But people who think they have the moral high ground - doesn’t matter the side - uses that as a justification for their actions, no matter how harmful those actions are. To say that illegal immigration is a problem is an understatement - it creates downward pressure on ceertain wages, which is then used as justification because hard working americans don’t want piss poor wages.

      2. We have seen migration problems bleed into regional crime issues, tent cities, and so on.

      3. There are a handful of very democrat cities that are suffering dramatically from catch and release policies to the point that corperations that provide necessary essential services to make a city viable are leaving the city. They are simply closing up shop. And the attitude from the democrats is not to solve the underlying problem - it’s to try to make it illegal to close up shop in the city or area. Well: The only other option is to drive up prices, or basically make it impossible to get in and out without exactly what you have paid for.

      All of this comes to a reality that we have seen a march towards Institutional Authoritarianism for DECADES, since about 1970… well, a little sooner, but if you look at a lot of shifts you are going to find that about 1965 through to about 1975 is a big shift in a lot of governance decisions, and this is no different. More, and more federal agencies were created - and laws were more and more written such that it was agency rules that dictated the specifics instead of clear written law by congress. In function, it was a divestment of power from Elected officials to Appointed agencies - and over time, the Bureaucracy has been ever more empowered to dictate the direction of many of these organizations, not the elected officials or congress: And yes, Democrats are the biggest fault in this, though republicans are… barely better in this regard.

      So: How do we fix this?

      The answer is: Smaller government. Simpler regulations are cheaper and easier to be in compliance with, and require less resources to audit. Simpler taxes are this with added benefits - in that, by simplifying, you crush the legal loopholes used to hide money from scrutiny. And part of the simplification is you remove basically everything that is eligible as a tax credit.

      And this applies for EVERY SINGLE regulatory body, every government agency, all of it.

      You can’t tax a nation into prosperity, you can’t regulate it into prosperity. You can tax a society into equality by making everyone miserable - but since the politicians are human beings as well, you can bet they will NOT be living a miserable life meaning it will never happen. Those two things are the core of stratifying a society - and again, they have increased in count and size consistently. And if you think taxing the rich is a great idea - income tax on the rich was the first income tax in the US, levied to pay the debts of the civil war. Pretty soon governments decided that taxing everyone else would be better then taxing just the rich: After all, it’s just fair… right? And pretty soon, the regulations, and rules shifted such that the rich pay significantly less as a portion of their income as does literally everyone else: Oops?

      It’s almost like Equal opertunity serves society better then trying to force equitability. It’s almost like Free association, is better then trying to force everyone to associate. It’s almost like Freedom from government oversight is better then a government up in every bit of your business. And it’s like Free trade is good for the wealthy - and bad for about everyone else in the long term: Because it’s not about YOUR benefit, it’s a bout the owner classes benefit.

      • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        I think it would be obvious after 4 decades of Neoliberalism that you can’t deregulate your way into prosperity and in fact the very opposite happens: you end up with consumers constantly swindled, widely sold products that cause long term problems like cancer, all manner of systemic problems having grown uncontrollably (most notably Negative Externalities) and lots of markets turned into cartels and monopolies (with prices up, quality down and improvement stopped) - enshitification is the product of deregulation, as is the housing market bubble, the internet access local monopolies in large parts of the US (and associated high prices for shit service compared to the rest of the World) and a lot of other things.

        “Small government” is a content-free slogan rather than a solution: absolutely, in some areas there is too much “government” (for example, the oversized military spend), yet in others there is too little (a National Health Service would literally make Healthcare in the US consume half of what it does in GDP terms so “big government” there would actually be the smart solution business-wise). It’s a problem of how Government is managed, which is a hard thing to do and solve and were the devil is in the details, not just a simple sounding “solution” of “just make it smaller” that sounds good but solves nothing.

        Migration is a complex problem. I think that legal immigrants should be treated as guests because they were literally invited in, but that does not extend to illegal ones.

        Immigration (as an economic strategy of a country) can indeed be a problem, especially if it’s done too fast and with low integration because whilst immigrants bring themselves as workers, they also bring their needs for products and services and that’s more works that needs to be done or in other words, more jobs - so when they arrive they are workers competing for jobs but over time they also cause more jobs to be created because they too are consumers buying products and services which have to be produced by even more workers - whilst the low integration is a problem because of cultural clashes between the immigrants and the locals (maybe more of a problem in Europe than the US) because people coming from different countries don’t have the same assumptions as the locals on how on is supposed to behave in certain situations (some being small details and other much bigger) and hence can behave in ways that other see as weird or even anti-social, which in large numbers generates conflict. With time living in a new country an immigrant will adjust to be a lot more like the locals, but if the influx of immigrants is too many in too little time there are too many clashes with those freshly immigrated who haven’t learned to behave more like the locals and people in a host country end up feeling that immigrants are unpleasant people , even bad people.

        Immigration (the legal kind, approved by Governments) is being used to paper-over flaws in the way a country is being managed (for example, in my own country politicians caused massive house price inflation and other problems, mainly affecting young adults, so the end result is lower birth rates and hence an aging population, which is then made up with immigration, and this is so extreme that in this country literally half of university graduates leave the country and then they’re replaced with immigrants with much lower educational levels) plus it’s massively good for the wealthy (both because it increases worker competition for jobs when they arrive and because it eventually pushes up the size of the Economy as a whole, and whilst normal people’s prosperity relates to the size of the Economy per-capita, the wealthy are the ones taking slices from the whole of the Economy so for them and them only, growing the Economy by adding more people is a gain), so problematic Immigration is really a consequence of problems at a political level (and that includes Corruption) - the country is not being managed for the good of most people and high Immigration is both part of that directly (it makes the Wealthy wealthier) and indirectly because it’s used to paper over problems caused by that political mismanagement (like in my country young adults leaving or having fewer children because life is way too expensive for them here and salaries are low, so then immigrants are imported because there is a lack of workers).

        Immigrants themselves, however (as I say, the legal kind, hence people like you and me who were invited and changed their whole lives and invested time and effort in the country they came to) shouldn’t be treated as the problem - they’re just people doing their lives the best they can in a perfectly legit way. Look at the Politicians for the people to blame for Immigration reaching problematic levels.

        Anyways, the more general point I’m making is that a lot of the problems you see have been created by very much local people in positions of power doing what’s best for themselves and for those who will pay them (and most definitely politicians in the US are Corrupt as fuck), and afterwards scapegoating the problems they themselves caused on something or somebody else and the easiest target there is are the most powerless people in the country (who don’t even have a right to vote) - immigrants.

        • Formesse@lemmy.world
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          I think we are on the same page as Immigration: Can be good, too much is generally bad, and the Immigrants unfortunately get flack when the problem is the government. And unfortunately - fixing the problem is going to suck for a wide number of prospective immigrants. What so many on the left don’t seem to get: It is not the American tax payers job to give a rats ass about people who WANT to move to the US. It is the US’s duty to ensure the people being allowed to come in WILL BE a NET BENEFIT to the society. And this means: They must end up being a net contributor. As it stands - we see government funds going to support migrants illegal or legal. We see growing crime rates - with information coming out that statistics were manipulated purposefully or accidentally to look better: But the truth wins out.

          Smaller Government - not small government - I want to clarify this: I don’t think a small government works. I mean, if you are in a hamlet where everyone knows everyone, everyone comes together to solve issues as they crop up in a big town hall that encompasses everyone: Sure, small government works. But we are talking about an entity that has to deal with hundreds of millions, over a vast area, with various regional concerns and interests… it’s a NIGHTMARE. But Big government is also not the answer.

          When I talk about reduced regulation - I’m not talking NO regulation. I mean: If you want to tax - flat rate it, have it low, get rid of as many deductions as you reasonably can. No longer do you have “I pay 35% income tax in my bracket but have 23000$ in deductions” - instead you have “I pay 20% tax rate on everything made over 30,000$”. And that can work - really damn well. You can do it for business as well - first, I dunno, 500,000$ in revenue isn’t taxed, at all - anything over 500k is taxed at 3%. I know - insanely low. But a company right now that makes 50 billion in revenue through tax games and loop holes can end up paying 0%… and that is more common then not when you get into large corporations. So: Simplify the tax code. People will be mad at first, until you state “This will help small business by reducing their tax burden, while ensuring large corperations like Google, Microsoft, Wallmart, and so on will pay their share for the benefits they reap for operating within this nations economy. We understand that some of them may feel the need to pass the costs on - but we strongly feel the market can, and will be better able to compete with these entities as a result - which will, in time get you better paying jobs, better prices on your products, and more option in where you shop”. And for once - the argument that corperations are greedy assholes might have some merit.

          Why I like Medium Sized Governments

          Maybe I should define what I mean.

          If small Government is one that does basically nothing, and Big Government is one that expands itself whenever it wants to do more - then Medium Government is a government that looks at it’s current activity list and decides: Is any of this non-critical? Can we simplify and attain the objective?

          to me: That is what government should be constantly doing - If it has staff pushing paper around for all intent and purpose, and that paper needs 5 signatures, and it needs 8 audits before it’s approved: Why? Can you do it with 2 audits, and 2 sign offs? Well: Probably. And considering the sheer amount of errors and mistakes that make it through the overly bloated systems we have today - my guess is less is actually more, and the entire reason? Because with less - people are forced to take ownership: They can’t just pass on the buck, they are accountable to what they sign off on, what they do.

          And so we get to the core of it: Big Government is accountable to no one and no one person is accountable to anyone. Small Government does so little it doesn’t worry about accountability. And so, we get to another reason why medium sized governments are better: They are, by their nature, far more accountable to the people.