Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team.
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
The security issue is very likely scenario. If you’re in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.
Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
I’m well aware that liberalism is an international term.
Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense
I haven’t said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
It’s not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
I think Palestinians have a right to be angry at Israelis, even to the point of potential violence.
And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
Much in the same way I think Russians have long passed a historical threshold for which we should consider whether they are compatible with civilized society.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
We gave them a shot after the USSR fell, they didn’t take the opportunity to clean up their act.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
So now we’re going back to it, confrontation.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
Only this time we’re not 2-3x stronger than them, we’re 10-20x. I like those odds.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Just Russia? Or all countries with the same violations that outrage you? What about those with even worse? Are you excited for justice in all cases?
And a world War?
Yes.
With Russia and whose army?
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory. Starting am open war with Russia would drag in all nations that have sought independence and needed to build up a military to prevent being overcome by the domjnant superpower. Eventually it would drag in every major state. It is hard to say how all of the chios would fall, but the conditions under which Russia were openly targeted for destruction would immediately create alarm in China, Iran, and most of Africa. That bloc has an order of magnitude more productive capacity and manpower than the “good guys” you would have in mind.
Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own.
Russia could destroy and overtake UA at basically any time but is instead choosing this status quo as achieving a strategic objective, namely bleeding UA of manpower and weapons stocks. Russia has notably not used the scorched earth approach that NATO and NATO ally countries have consistently taken during their invasions, one where mass civilian destruction and terror are the main components of victory and control, where their forces fall apart the minute theyvlack air superiority. UA does not have sufficient air defenses to prevent such attacks, Russia simply chooses not to make them.
If things turn south, I have no doubt Russia would adopt the more NATO-ie “make the civilian population scream for mercy and then push them even harder” approach.
Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
You might as well just write, “I am easily misled by propaganda”. Since the beginning of the war, the false prospect that Ukraine could win has been essential for manufacturing consent for every ask made by Kyiv and the US government, up to and including mass deindustrialization of regions of Europe and making the EU dollar dependent again. Just follow the sources of what you read and ask what they choose to report on vs not and who pays them. It will be revealing.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
Save them from what? If China is in a world war you can kiss any semblance of normalcy in your life goodbye. You should fear these prospects, not LARP about how much you will win. These are all nuclear powers with greater industrial capacity.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with what shock therapy refers to in this context. No lectures from you about this if you don’t know something so basic. But, in short: the oligarchs were created by this shock therapy, of mass privatization, and it was done by US policy in the region. Modern Russia is a direct consequence of US shock therapy treatment.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
Silly little fairy tales.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
What about a disaster in Russia makes you excited?
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’.
Justice is not abstract, it has a grounding in ending injustice, creating accountability, and making whole. Given that you seem, unprompted, pretty stoked for war, I don’t accept your claim to not have thirst for blood.
Re: Europe being victims of imperialism, what on earth are you talking about? I assume you are referring to the Warsaw Pact but I can only guess at what comic book-esque brainworms are at work.
Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
So you wish suffering on the Russian people? Sounds pretty Russophobic.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that ‘being European’.
Ah, sounds like you hang out in ethnic supremacist spaces. It’s all making sense now.
It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.
Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don’t see any if you saying, “Fuck America” and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
The US is backing Israel’s genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?
Decent part of america was not larping the war either.
Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.
But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.
It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
Can I get a “Fuck America”?
Hopefully never again but who are we kidding…
Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
Buy I don’t see any if you saying, “Fuck America” and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel… I don’ think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
You should be if you respect your own thoughts that you are sharing.
Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia. Liberals taking their opportunity to be racist and xenophobic without being singled out as problematic.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel…
It is below the bare minimum, it is just slightly less jingoistic than in spaces curated by monopolies and staffed with literal feds. Pro-genocide discourse is strong here, it just hides behind electoralism discourse and feigned reluctance.
I don’ think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
It won’t be a mainstream opinion in US-centric spaces without political education of such people.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
It was a very small part of it, really. Liberals rewrote their histories about their support for wars of aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan. They pretend to have been against it when they were actually part of their version of the “silent majority” and rampant islamophobia. The protests rapidly ran out of steam as Americans don’t even know how to fight against their state.
Of course it is not. By definition. Russia is conducting a conventional war and with far less indiscriminate bombing than typical Western “interventions”. But it would be amazing to see your logic and then try to apply it consistently.
And invasion.
Like that of Gaza? Lebanon? Syria? Iraq? Afghanistan? Haiti? Are you consistent in your hate?
And mass rape.
There is no evidence of systemic mass rape by Russia in Ukraine.
And a huge litany of human rights abuses.
Well yes that is definitely true. But again, are you consistent in your hate? Because if the object is human rights abuses Russia is nowhere near the top.
I don’t care for your whataboutism (a common soviet tactic, interesting).
Inconsistency in pursuit of chauvinism is so common that one must regularly try to reorient the confused and biased framings. If you have this much vitriol for Russia and thr people in it despite other countries doing more and worse why do you not hate those countries and everyone in them just as much? It more?
It reveals that, despite the pretenses and rhetoric, none of that really matters to you. It is just an excuse for getting to be chauvinist.
Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y’all are bleating “good, fuck Russia”.
Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.
Nobody has stated any actual reason. Based on Linus’ comments, Russophobia is the likely answer.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I’d consider that a very rational fear.
I’m sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
This country attacked me. Should I allow their enemies to reach them through my territory? Sure.
“USSR correctly predicted this!”
The timeline is fuwky wucky in your argument mate
Ah yes, the famed “reluctant” Nazi collaborators that just had to help Nazis and build death camps to get revenge on the Russkies.
I wonder why all of these liberals here keep making excuses for Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
What on earth are you talking about?
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The security issue is very likely scenario. If you’re in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.
thank you… now this makes sense.
so presumably this applied to Russians nationals living within Russia.
If that’s accurate, the measure is proper IMHO
Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
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Liberalism is primarily an international term. You are very confused if you think it is just about US “left” politics.
And I said that there are Ukrainian Nazis whose racism is repeated by liberals. This is a simple fact.
this propaganda is no longer any good bro… 2014-22, it was decent engagement slop for the westoid but it don’t work. why are y’all still using it?
Because it is established fact, as even Western mainstream media has reported.
Because liberals repeated and repeat the talking points of Ukrainian Nazis.
You seem to be under the midapprheen that they either didn’t exist or went away. That would be incorrect.
i trust you bro
No need for trust, it is public record
I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
When he says “Liberals love collective punishment…” he is not saying left wing, he is saying loudly right wing.
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Dude I’m not endorsing his comment, I’m saying what he means with “Liberals”
Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
You absolutely were using it in that sense.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
I haven’t said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
It’s not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
The ones that are, are.
Only love speech for Banderites, please.
lmao
I mean, I hate most Russians, but only since they invaded Ukraine.
Russia whines endlessly about ancient wrongs against them, the Finns have a lot to remember about Russia too.
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
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And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
I’m excited for Russia seeing justice.
And a world War?
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that ‘being European’.
Just Russia? Or all countries with the same violations that outrage you? What about those with even worse? Are you excited for justice in all cases?
Yes.
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory. Starting am open war with Russia would drag in all nations that have sought independence and needed to build up a military to prevent being overcome by the domjnant superpower. Eventually it would drag in every major state. It is hard to say how all of the chios would fall, but the conditions under which Russia were openly targeted for destruction would immediately create alarm in China, Iran, and most of Africa. That bloc has an order of magnitude more productive capacity and manpower than the “good guys” you would have in mind.
Russia could destroy and overtake UA at basically any time but is instead choosing this status quo as achieving a strategic objective, namely bleeding UA of manpower and weapons stocks. Russia has notably not used the scorched earth approach that NATO and NATO ally countries have consistently taken during their invasions, one where mass civilian destruction and terror are the main components of victory and control, where their forces fall apart the minute theyvlack air superiority. UA does not have sufficient air defenses to prevent such attacks, Russia simply chooses not to make them.
If things turn south, I have no doubt Russia would adopt the more NATO-ie “make the civilian population scream for mercy and then push them even harder” approach.
You might as well just write, “I am easily misled by propaganda”. Since the beginning of the war, the false prospect that Ukraine could win has been essential for manufacturing consent for every ask made by Kyiv and the US government, up to and including mass deindustrialization of regions of Europe and making the EU dollar dependent again. Just follow the sources of what you read and ask what they choose to report on vs not and who pays them. It will be revealing.
Save them from what? If China is in a world war you can kiss any semblance of normalcy in your life goodbye. You should fear these prospects, not LARP about how much you will win. These are all nuclear powers with greater industrial capacity.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with what shock therapy refers to in this context. No lectures from you about this if you don’t know something so basic. But, in short: the oligarchs were created by this shock therapy, of mass privatization, and it was done by US policy in the region. Modern Russia is a direct consequence of US shock therapy treatment.
Silly little fairy tales.
What about a disaster in Russia makes you excited?
Justice is not abstract, it has a grounding in ending injustice, creating accountability, and making whole. Given that you seem, unprompted, pretty stoked for war, I don’t accept your claim to not have thirst for blood.
Re: Europe being victims of imperialism, what on earth are you talking about? I assume you are referring to the Warsaw Pact but I can only guess at what comic book-esque brainworms are at work.
So you wish suffering on the Russian people? Sounds pretty Russophobic.
Ah, sounds like you hang out in ethnic supremacist spaces. It’s all making sense now.
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Get that homophobia out if here
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Of course there was and it is why their comment was removed.
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That is of course a homophobic insult
I didn’t think that being murdered by Putin’s thugs is specifically Homophobic, but do let us know in the comments.
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It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.
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Hmm yes, we all remember when noted liberal Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat facing the US.
Mitt Romney is a liberal, yes.
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Tragically unfunny deflection
All it takes is reading the article to see why it was done. You clearly did not do that and instead inserted your own agenda.
I did read the article and drew the conclusion I just stated. Feel free to offer your own take.
While he certainly wasn’t sensitive about how he said it, he did state is was sanctions related.
He was not clear on that at all. For all we know it could be an excuse among the several vague ones he gave or a reference to pressure from Feds.
The “various comoliance requirements” are unstated. Everything here is being left to a vague implication.
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It’s actually just my analysis but okay
Fuck Russia. Pretty good reason.
For what reason do all Russians deserve to be punished and excluded as pariahs?
Being obediet dogs like germans during nazi regime.
Nearly all citizens are obedient to their countries. Why single out Russians?
Becuase russia and israel are causing seriouss issues currently.
Before you do america too… Decent part of america was not larping the war either. It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
Hopefully never again but who are we kidding…
Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don’t see any if you saying, “Fuck America” and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
The US is backing Israel’s genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?
Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.
But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.
Can I get a “Fuck America”?
Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel… I don’ think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
You should be if you respect your own thoughts that you are sharing.
Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia. Liberals taking their opportunity to be racist and xenophobic without being singled out as problematic.
It is below the bare minimum, it is just slightly less jingoistic than in spaces curated by monopolies and staffed with literal feds. Pro-genocide discourse is strong here, it just hides behind electoralism discourse and feigned reluctance.
It won’t be a mainstream opinion in US-centric spaces without political education of such people.
It was a very small part of it, really. Liberals rewrote their histories about their support for wars of aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan. They pretend to have been against it when they were actually part of their version of the “silent majority” and rampant islamophobia. The protests rapidly ran out of steam as Americans don’t even know how to fight against their state.
There it is, .ml maga losers raising their heads off the mud again
I think you are confused. Being against the genocide of Gaza is not a MAGA thing.
They keep bringing up how small the protests were and how they “ran out of steam” or w/e. It really shows how little they actually know about the US.
Because Russia has invaded another country and is currently committing a genocide. Christ 🤦♀️
Russia is not committing a genocide. However, the US and Israel are have been invading Lebanon and Syria.
Do you support removing all Americans from the maintainer lost? Can I get a “Fuck America”?
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Of course it is not. By definition. Russia is conducting a conventional war and with far less indiscriminate bombing than typical Western “interventions”. But it would be amazing to see your logic and then try to apply it consistently.
Like that of Gaza? Lebanon? Syria? Iraq? Afghanistan? Haiti? Are you consistent in your hate?
There is no evidence of systemic mass rape by Russia in Ukraine.
Well yes that is definitely true. But again, are you consistent in your hate? Because if the object is human rights abuses Russia is nowhere near the top.
Inconsistency in pursuit of chauvinism is so common that one must regularly try to reorient the confused and biased framings. If you have this much vitriol for Russia and thr people in it despite other countries doing more and worse why do you not hate those countries and everyone in them just as much? It more?
It reveals that, despite the pretenses and rhetoric, none of that really matters to you. It is just an excuse for getting to be chauvinist.
This is not collective punishment.
Of course it is. It is punishing all members of a nationality for the actions if their government.
I didn’t realize all Russians were in the Linux kernel maintainers file. Silly me.
A trivial bad faith reading. Think about it for a few seconds more: what qualified their removal?
Read a newspaper some time. You might learn a thing about that.
lmao what kind of zinger is that
We aren’t talking about “all Russians”. What thread are you watching?
Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y’all are bleating “good, fuck Russia”.
Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.
What in the hell are you arguing for here?
lmao what a load of crap.
But anyways thanks for contradicting yourself.
If I’m saying this, and the founders and mainters of the Linux Kernel agree, it really seems like I’m not wrong here.
Might be time reevaluate some stuff.
Believe or not both you and Linus Torvalds can be wrong. Shocking, I know. I don’t know how you’ll break the news to your loved ones.
Yes, like you contradicting your entire previous comment and then continuing on like nothing happened.
Linus is just following the law, the law != doing the right thing.
He just applied Russians’ favorite soviet era saying “those who is not with us is against us”
Who did that? And that is a cartoonish an embarrassing thing for you to say I’d a soviet saying, let alone a popular one.