A top economist has joined the growing list of China’s elite to have disappeared from public life after criticizing Xi Jinping, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Zhu Hengpeng served as deputy director of the Institute of Economics at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS) for around a decade.
CASS is a state research think tank that reports directly to China’s cabinet. Chen Daoyin, a former associate professor at Shanghai University of Political Science and Law, described it as a “body to formulate party ideology to support the leadership.”
According to the Journal, the 55-year-old disappeared shortly after remarking on China’s sluggish economy and criticizing Xi’s leadership in a private group on WeChat.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/Rqsfm
Hmm, strange? How could that have happened? 🤷♂️
Wow, what a useful state-sponsored think tank.
I’m sure everyone else who works there will make sure to be completely honest with their findings going forward, regardless of how it might make the Party look.
Oh bother!
Where do people think the honey used to feed Xinnie Jinping comes from?
I already see tankies making up some of the most delusional excuses youve ever heard.
Idk why he assumed the private chat was actually private and not fully monitored.
Lol he does look like that fucking bear
You have been banned from lemmy.ml for violating rule 2
ML anxious attachment style. Banning people for comments they make on other instances is some weeeird little dog behavior.
Already been down voted by a .ml user that got offended by me daring to insult their precious instance. Fuck .ml and their trash mods and admins lmao
Eh, that’s a bit much. Let’s remember that they created Lemmy in the first place, and for that I’ll always be grateful.
At least they’re slightly better than Truth Social. Apparently that’s literally a completely defederated Mastodon instance.
Is that why I got banned? Makes sense, I do have a tendency to refer to him as Xi Xinpooh
Oh bother…
Wait but Hexbear said that China is a democracy? Did they lie?!??
I’ll have you know that America did some bad stuff so that justifies literally any amount of authoritarianism from China.
Do you actually realize how little sense this makes?
Yes.
Sorry, I read it too quickly and didn’t notice that it was sarcasm.
I had the most hilarious discussion with a Tankie about China a while back. They refused to accept that China is pretty much communist in name only. I pointed out that they had billionaires, privately-owned companies, a stock exchange and private property, meaning you can earn capital in China.
The Tankie actually said something on the lines of, “If you would JUST READ MARX you would know that earning capital is a fundamental cornerstone of communism!”
I mean, you definitely should read Marx. China is Socialist, guided by a Communist Party. It hasn’t reached Communism, and when they tried to jump to Communism under Mao and the later Gang of Four, they ran into massive issues because the Means of Production weren’t developed enough.
Marx maintains that the next Mode of Production emerges from the previous, dialectically. That doesn’t mean China needed to let Billionaires run rampant, doing whatever they want, it means that it was the correct gamble to heavily industrialize and interlock itself with the global economy while maintaining State Supremacy over Capital, focusing more than anything on developing the productive forces.
Like it or not, the USSR collapsed due to trying to stay isolated from the West, which legitimately led to dissatisfaction towards the lack of consumer goods. They had strong safety nets and all the necessities they needed, but lacked the fun toys. The PRC watched this in real time, and didn’t want to repeat it.
In that manner, the PRC is Socialist. It maintains a Dictatorship of the Proletariat over Capital, Billionaires fear persecution, state ownership is high and growing, the Proletariat’s real purchasing power is growing. The bourgeoisie exists, but has been kept no larger than can be drowned in a bathtub, in terms of power relation to the CPC, so to speak.
There is risk of Capitalist roading, and the bourgeoisie wresting control from the CPC. This risk is real, and is dangerous, but it hasn’t happened yet. Wealth disparity is rising, so we must keep a careful eye on it.
The greatest analytical tool of a Marxist is Dialectical Materialism. When analyzing something, it isn’t sufficient to take a present-day snapshot, you must consider its history, its relations to other entities, its contradictions, and its trajectory. Engels was a Capitalist, was Marx hypocritical for keeping Engels as his closest friend and ally? No. Class reductionism is dogmatic, we must analyze correctly.
Wall of text
Circular logic
Not going to readWhere, exactly, was the circular logic? Choosing not to read is your right, of course, but if you saw an error in my comment I’d like to know what it is.
Not reading that either.
Peak liberalism, lmao. Even when I ask for a critique, I can’t get any.
2·16 minutes agoThe first comment is self-contradictory, “not going to read” yet there is “circular logic”. If they haven’t read it, how can they know that it is there?
Why make a comment if you aren’t going to engage in good faith? What is the point?
Marx maintains that the next Mode of Production emerges from the previous, dialectically.
Ah, okay. Well, the previous mode of production involved no private property and no accrual of capital. Now there is both. So do please point out where Marx talks about how things go from not earning capital to earning capital to not earning capital again.
I did. Mao tried to jump ahead to Communism, without developing the Means of Production. This was misguided. Deng noted the failures of the Gang of Four:
During the “cultural revolution” the Gang of Four raised the absurd slogan, “Better to be poor under socialism and communism than to be rich under capitalism.” It may sound reasonable to reject the goal of becoming rich under capitalism. But how can we advocate being poor under socialism and communism? It was that kind of thinking that brought China to a standstill. That situation forced us to re-examine the question.
The PRC had eliminated Private Property, but were poor. The people were struggling. They had not actually developed the Means of Production to the level they needed to be.
Here’s a Marxist “test,” if you will. If you take expert Marxists and place them in an entirely new Earth-like planet, with no tools, what would their course of history look like? Would they be able to achieve Communism through fiat, or would they have to go through similar stages of production as we did in history?
The Marxist answer is that, while they may be able to go through the process of development more quickly, with the knowledge of key technologies like agriculture and the steam engine that allowed for major leaps in Mode of Production, they would not be able to achieve Upper-Stage Communism outright, and would have to develop Modes of Production alongside technological development, just like you can’t skip from wooden pickaxes to diamond pickaxes without iron pickaxes in Minecraft, if you’ll forgive the analogy.
No you did not. You did not point to where Marx said it or what he said despite me asking you to multiple times. That is just a lie. You are clearly here in bad faith and this discussion is over. And I better not see this kind of trolling from you to other users.
In my opinion, I did provide it. I could link The German Ideology and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, and if you read them you would perhaps understand Dialectical and Historical Materialism better, but we are having a discussion on Lemmy. The capacity for sharing information and the expecations for a single thread of replies are very low.
Marx was incredibly intelligent, but he couldn’t predict the future, thus, like I have linked in Critique of the Gotha Programme, the closest we can get is his insistence that the next Mode of Production emerges from the previous. Asking for a quote for him saying “communism is when you eliminate private property, struggle a ton, then bring it back in a controlled manner and gradually increase public ownership” won’t happen, because the initial failure isn’t necessary.
Imagine trying to build a modern cell phone with bronze-age technology. You can’t, just like you can’t materialize Communism through fiat without developing the Means of Production. Marxism isn’t Utopian, ie it isn’t about picking a good society and forcing it into existence, regardless of the level of development of the Means of Production. Marxism is Scientific, ie it focuses on historical developments, the Mode of Production is tied to the technological level of the Means of Production. Feudalism disappeared after the Industrial Revolution, largely, and not earlier. Having achieved a backwards, idealist, impoverished “communism” like under Mao and the Gang of Four goes against Marx’s theory of historical development of class society, and China paid the price for ignoring that.
Theory must meet practice, and practice must inform theory. The PRC tried to establish Communism without developing the Means of Production adequately, readjusted, and has now rapidly developed. Holding an ultra-Maoist line like the Gang of Four that insisted it is better for the Proletariat to be poor under Socialism than rich under Capitalism is Revisionism. Maoist Theory regarding Class Struggle did not meet practice, therefore the correct choice was to take a gradualist approach while maintaining CPC control so that when the Means of Production are more developed, they can be more Socialized in turn as Socialism emerges from Capitalism.
You are clearly here in bad faith and this discussion is over. And I better not see this kind of trolling from you to other users.
This is insulting, especially considering you haven’t attempted to respond to the rest of my comment, where I try to actually engage with modern analysis of a country Marx never lived to see and actively analyze. If clearly high-effort replies are considered “trolling” and “bad-faith” by your standards, then how can you consider your “gotchas” any better?
You want quotes? Here are quotes
That’s an extremely long article. Can you point out where he says that communism is developed through eliminating capital, bringing it back again, then eliminating it again?
The Tankie actually said something on the lines of, “If you would JUST READ MARX you would know that earning capital is a fundamental cornerstone of communism!”
I’m a communist who doesn’t want to call China a communist country, so I don’t really agree with the person that you were talking to, but your second paragraph does show you haven’t researched communism or its history. The debate of whether societies need to undergo capitalist capital accumulation first to enter communism is about as old as communism, and the history of communism is full of examples of this. It’s the ideological reason why the Russian Socialist Democratic Labor Party split into two wings: the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks, the former believing that the Russian Empire had to undergo capitalism first in other to become communist, and the latter wanting to implement socialism to the primitive almost feudalist Russian empire. Some similar split happened more discreetly inside the Communist Party of China, with Mao implementing socialism directly to the extremely underdeveloped Chinese society, and later Deng Xiaoping opting for the more market-socialism (known now to many as "socialism with Chinese characteristics).
So you may or may not agree whether china is communist, but from your comment it’s clear that you’re very oblivious to the historical and ideological reasons for the argument as to whether china is or isn’t a socialist country and whether they’re on the path to it. It’s good to discuss things and to have opinions, but please get informed before dismissing other people’s opinions on topics they’ve probably dedicated more time than you to studying.
So you may or may not agree whether china is communist, but from your comment it’s clear that you’re very oblivious to the historical and ideological reasons for the argument as to whether china is or isn’t a socialist country and whether they’re on the path to it.
Weird how this path went from a communist country under Mao to a capitalist one under Xi. I guess it goes back again?
How exactly do you achieve communism via billionaires, a stock exchange, private ownership, etc.? That’s ludicrous.
I’m not myself trying to make the assertion that china is communism or that it will achieve communism, I’m saying that what you consider “ludicrous”, has been a hotly debated topic for the past 100 years with many proponents on both sides, many of them with much more knowledge of socialism and revolutions than you or I possess.
Yes. I stand by my statement that it is ludicrous to go from no private property to private property and still call yourself communist.
No, no, you see, people who Read Theory™ have taken a side, therefore, the position is valid. Like how the value of the holsum Khmer Rouge is debatable instead of gruesomely apparent!
And I’m saying that you have clearly not dedicated much time to thinking about or studying the issue. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, so I’m not very supportive of Dengism, but if you listen to Dengists and Mensheviks they will tell you that China still has a communist party in power (as does Vietnam and as does Laos) whereas the former USSR has a capitalist proto-fascist in government. Only time will tell who’s really right, and whether china shifts to a less market-socialism society and more towards a democratic centrally planned economy in the hands of the workers and the state.
I’m not saying China isn’t a country, I’m just saying it’s hotly debated whether or not it should be called west Taiwan. Only time will tell whether the CCP admits defeat and hands over control in line with their one China policy.
Man, making shit up is fun.
Do show me where Marx said that the path to communism is eliminating private property and the ability to accrue capital and then bringing it back again.
If the Bolsheviks didn’t believe that Russia had to undergo capitalism then why did they implement, and I quote Lenin, state capitalism.
Also there’s already a term for socialists who tolerate capitalism, it’s social democrats. Maybe the “democrat” thing is the issue MLMs have with the whole concept, not the tolerating capitalism part.
there’s already a term for socialists who tolerate capitalism, it’s social democrats
Social Democrats don’t want a transition to communism, not even ideologically. Dengists and Mensheviks do, at least ideologically. Whether you believe that or not is a different debate, but equating socialdemocrats with mensheviks is dumb, not a dunk.
why did they implement, and I quote Lenin, state capitalism
Look, I’m not here to argue for Marxism-Leninism against you because you’re obviously trying to be smug, not trying to have a civilized discussion. If you actually want some good (in my opinion) analysis of actually-existing socialism, there are plenty of Michael Parenti videos online, or you can pick up his book “Blackshirts and Reds”. But I suspect you’re just here to punch to those communists that are further left than you are. If you do want to have this discussion let me know.
Social Democrats don’t want a transition to communism, not even ideologically.
Last I checked the SPD’s party program still speaks of socialism.
But I suspect you’re just here to punch to those communists that are further left than you are.
I’m an Anarchist. Council Communists are generally to the right of me, quite adjacent but not quite there, Tankies somehow managed to seat themselves at the very other side of the plenum.
Last I checked the SPD’s party program still speaks of socialism
I’m sure the SPD party program talks about the end of capitalism /s
Again, not here to engage with smug factionalists. Have a good day
I’m not a factionalist you’re the factionalist. Just agree with me and be done with it!
Tankies are just communist cosplayers.
Where are the “real” Communists? What draws the line between a Marxist and a tankie?
I mean you can still have private property under communism, it’s the capital making property that’s more owned by the workers themselves, but you can still own things under communism.
Similarly, you can earn capital under communism too, it’s just that the tools for earning said capital aren’t owned by corporations under corporations under CEOs under the 1%. It’s not a cornerstone for sure, but it’s not like communism is anti capital and growth and owning things
A bit nitpicky here, but personal property isn’t Private Property. That being said, Marx and Engels maintained constantly that Private Property cannot be abolished in one sweep, that goes fundamentally against Historical Materialism. Socialism emerges from Capitalism, you can’t establish it through fiat, hence why the Cultural Revolution wasn’t a resounding success. Mao tried to establish Communism immediately, misjudged, and then Deng stepped in.
Thank you you’ve put the difference in better terms than I did
No problem. Marxism is pretty difficult for most people to understand entirely without reading far more than you would expect, it isn’t simply criticism of Capitalism or advocacy for Socialism and then Communism, but also Dialectical and Historical Materialism, which is where people can easily trip up.
Directly from The Communist Manifesto:
In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
Read a bit ahead if you may:
Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.
Okay? That doesn’t change the summary about private property, which is a thing in China. It wasn’t under Mao, it is now.
And then the adherents fought over the means and meaning, and everybody else threw their hands up
Tbh Marx is intentionally questioning definitions and such so it makes sense, simplifying it down to terms we use isn’t very productive in that sense, because what he argues for is the abolishing of “private property” as we know it, but without removing the fruits of labour from its people, so if you and your mates worked for your house you can have it, until the moment you start making a business out of it then it’s less ok.
That’s probably the smartest tankie in existence
This is actually hilarious
Private property as in land or a house? Because that’s not how it works in China. You can only buy it for a specific set of time. Besides that it is indeed just a capitalistic country with an oppressive state.
something on the lines of
Any time someone describes something that happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they are misrepresenting what happened 100% of the time.
Hahaha, are you saying that because it was you on the other end of that discussion? I know you love China so much that you are willing to praise their genocide of Uyghur people.
Maybe you could distill the theory for us a bit so we can decipher why “socialism” is producing hundreds of billionaires.
Hahaha, are you saying that because it was you on the other end of that discussion?
Not to my knowledge, but there’s no way for anyone to know what incident it’s referencing so it could be any conversation they had with anyone, or made up whole cloth. I say this exact thing every time I see someone claim something happened on the fediverse without providing a link 1 2 3, and I haven’t been wrong yet. And that’s not really surprising, why wouldn’t someone provide a link to something that made the other side look bad, unless it didn’t actually play out the way they claim?
For example, when you say that I “praise the genocide of Uyghur people,” that is a lie, and it should be obvious that it’s a lie from the fact that you didn’t provide a link to it.
I’d be happy to have a good faith discussion regarding China’s economic policies and how they relate to socialism. Just not with someone who I already know is going to lie, misrepresent whatever I say, and act in bad faith, as I know you will.
For example, when you say that I “praise the genocide of Uyghur people,” that is a lie, and it should be obvious that it’s a lie from the fact that you didn’t provide a link to it.
That’s right! OBJECTION! is just a genocide denialist, like Holocaust denialists! Much better.
From the position of your acceptance of Uyghur genocide and pretending that China is anywhere near the left, it’s astonishing you are comfortable accusing anyone else of bad faith.
There’s simply no way to have a serious discussion with you regarding anything about China. That’s why you have chosen the lemmy.ml instance, it is a hivemind of like thinkers all sheltered from the truth by fragile admins.
Oh, look at that, you can’t provide a link. Because you’re a liar. And once again my rule is proven true.
Oh, you want links? I can give you links.
Here you are linking to an article saying it isn’t genocide: https://lemmy.world/comment/12211000
Here you are refusing to accept the genocide is happening despite a huge number of links: https://lemmy.world/comment/11959309
And as a bonus here’s some trollish avoidance of admitting that the Tienanmen Square massacre happened: https://lemmy.world/comment/12256833
You do know there’s a search function, right?
I don’t feel like wandering your comment history looking for what you’ve had to say about China’s treatment of Uyghurs. Unless you’re not the same Objection I saw posting anime cartoons?
maybe they’re just trying to avoid dissapearing
Reminds me of the Clinton Death List, where anyone tangential to Bill and Hilary who had a bad turn was allegedly victimized to cover up an even more insidious crime.
Free West Taiwan! Hopefully, the CCP built dump will implode.
Things are afoot in the Hundred Acre Wood.
If you think the Chinese economy is bad now, wait 15 years. No amount of sending economists to the gulag will hide this disaster.
Edit: tankie downvotes are like nectar of the gods to me. Your precious CCP will wither like a plant in the desert.
Who thinks Chinese economy is bad now??
Lots of people, especially the Chinese. The sentiment about work, investment, economic prospects, consumption are all quite bad. The central bank is cutting rates. Just today the government dipped their toes into the helicopter money game. The only thing keeping the party going is exports
especially the Chinese
Source?
The sentiment about work, investment, economic prospects, consumption are all quite bad
Source?
92 upvotes would suggest a lot of people.
But everything you could say about China rings just as true in Europe, in Japan and Korea, in India, in Russia…
Global populations are heading for a heavy sag, but westerners only know how to heckle the Evil Foreigners.
Funny because I’m European, and the GDP per capita levels of most EU countries are at 2008 levels.
As for a population pyramid, China will face the same problem as other countries as you say, possibly more magnified.
EU countries are filling up with war and climate refugees. And… 2008 is one hell of a year to pick as your benchmark.
Yeah, blame the immigrants. Very .world thing to do lol. Taking Germany, for example, according to Wikipedia, 0.17% population growth per year between 2010 and 2020 doesn’t seem too great for me, compared to China’s yearly >4% GDP growth for example they’d reduce per-capita growths by an insignificant amount. I’m European myself, and I can tell you that the lack of GDP per capita growth between 2008 and 2024 isn’t due to population reasons either, and I’m guessing it’s the same for the bigger EU economies like France,Italy and Spain but feel free to correct me otherwise.
2008 as my benchmark is exactly my point: the European economy has only now economically recovered from the effects of its own self-imposed policy of austerity and deprivation of worker rights and welfare, without having restored said rights or welfare to pre-2008 levels. And we see countries like the UK under “labor” administration falling to the same policy again as soon as they enter the government. In the meanwhile, without falling into such policy (although without many significant victories for welfare and labor AFAIK), China has grown its per-capita GDP threefold since 2008.
So no, I don’t think “Chinese economy looks bad”, I wish my European country’s economy would mimic a fraction of the Chinese growth actually
I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted that much
I’ve already been banned from Hexbear. Bunch of assclowns over there.
Lemmy.ml next?
Why do you think Israel needs a fucking iron dome? Bunch of virgin clowns in here.
This you?
What a stark example of Mao’s legacy (look at the dip between ages 60 and 65).
read and weep little dronie
- https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108900118
- https://asiatimes.com/2023/07/chinas-demographic-doomsayers-cite-the-wrong-data/
oh yeah, and the problem in the US is worse 😂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj_go157Rf0
Ah, I was wondering when you’d show up. The second link is paywalled, and the first says nothing of substance other than vague hand-waving about the problems somehow being dealt with in due course. Not only that, but it fails to mention how, even if that were to work, China would keep up with countries that also can do the hand-wavey stuff but with the added benefit of a healthy population curve.
Imagine being so computer illiterate as not to be able to paste a link into the archive to get around the paywall. Certainly explains why you’re such an ignoramus. 😂
What is this supposed to show?
This is what a healthy population looks like:
Even then, it isn’t healthy, just healthier. The USA is still going to going to experience economic issues of a growing elderly population, it just won’t be as bad.
The US have the benefit of essentially limitless immigration that they can adjust at will. On the other hand, China’s leadership, being Han supremacist, is not receptive to immigration at all.
The US have the benefit of essentially limitless immigration
Except that even in the Americas the population is declining. There is a limit to it. The US can outlast many other countries because of immigration but it too has to face the same problem as everyone else.
Not really. They are the #1 immigration destination. If the US runs out of potential immigrants that means every other country is far worse off. This game is like the old joke about outrunning a bear: you don’t need to run faster than the bear — you only need to be faster than the guy next to you.
The US have the benefit of essentially limitless immigration
glances at US immigration policy
Does it?
China’s leadership, being Han supremacist, is not receptive to immigration at all.
Wit drier than a lint trap.
Does it?
People still pay upwards of $10,000 US to get smuggled into the country that they will only work in for 4 years as basic farm and factory workers in a house of 20 people.
The world is a mess and America is the gold mines of california with no gold in it. But a lot of people are getting rich selling immigrants the shovels.
People still pay upwards of $10,000 US to get smuggled into the country that they will only work in for 4 years as basic farm and factory workers in a house of 20 people.
You’re just describing human trafficking. This is modern slavery. Might as well brag about all the Africans who moved here in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The world is a mess and America is the gold mines of california
Who can forget the huge influx of East Asian immigrants flooding into the California gold mines to be worked to death in the mines? Another excellent example of American prosperity.
Coming from one of the foremost resident tankies here, that’s a glowing compliment. Thank you.
Immigration definitely helps, especially compared to China. I’m just noting that there will still be some decrease in the ratio of retired workers to current workers.
Have you… have you seen how Americans have been talking about the border? Especially this election cycle? I don’t know if would characterize either party’s constituencies as “receptive”.
It’s all talk. Corpos crave dirt cheap desperate immigrant workers and will make sure neither party messes this up.
According to the United Nations, in 2019, the United States, Germany, and Saudi Arabia had the largest number of immigrants of any country
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_immigrant_and_emigrant_population
Was there supposed to be some argument or statement attached to this source, or…?
You realize there’s more to immigration than the border between Mexico and the US, right?
I know they ignore it, but you don’t have to follow along with them.
50 million immigrants in the US, and that data is 5 years old. Germany comes in second with 13 million. It’s not even close. I don’t see how a demographic crisis could happen, even if they hypothetically cut immigration in half
it just won’t be as bad.
glances at Ferguson
glances at Columbia
glances at the NYC subway
How bad are we talking?
I don’t see how any of that relates to a potential demographic crisis
thicc
Basically, yes. The sides are nearly parallel, which is great. Compare with China’s, which forms a steep V. Once GenX hits retirement age they are completely screwed. The CCP’s recent push for “traditional family values” and increased birth rates is no coincidence.
The birthing rates are only dropping, in 15 years all of those people will be to old to work but there are not nearly enough to replace them.
Thank you for the clarification.
Sure, China will certainly collapse, as they have said since the 1990s.
Still waiting
The glorious economy is always in the shitter it seems.
Enjoy the 996 becoming 7-10-7
What gives workers even less time to be consumers, making China even more dependant on overseas markets.
What does this mean?
996 = working from 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week, work schedule practiced currently in many companies in China
7-10-7 = I’m guessing 7am to 10pm, 7 days a week because of worker shortage?
Old enough to remember people talking about a 4 day work week and complaining about how many bullshit jobs our economy is swamped with.
But I guess we actually do have a sever labor shortage and all that surplus manufacturing jettisoned out into the global market simply isn’t enough.
996 is a term the Chinese use to describe working 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week.
People complain when Trump and Biden puts tariffs on Chinese products or try to ban Chinese software, or invest hundreds of billions into bringing manufacturing back to the US, but it’s like they just can’t comprehend what a horrific government China has, between an authoritarian police state and leveraging slave labor to take over global industries, they’re a huge threat to freedom everywhere.
Guess Winnie-the-Pooh: Blood and Honey was closer to the real story than the originals by Milne…
