• henfredemars@infosec.pub
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    23 days ago

    I understand the frustration, but I can’t help but feel that their anger is misdirected. Do we really think video games are promoting violence?

    […] playing the game led the teenager to research and then later purchase the gun hours after his 18th birthday.

    I’m getting a sense that there are other steps that could have been taken to prevent this tragedy aside from this video game that features guns.

    • octopus_ink
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      23 days ago

      They voted back in all the same leadership at an election not long after. Having made that decision, I find this to be less surprising than it might have been.

      • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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        23 days ago

        I remember reading about that. All I could conclude is that the voters must approve in some sense of those actions. In which case, I’m afraid your peers have spoken and clearly indicate that it’s not a priority. It’s a shame.

    • onlinepersona@programming.dev
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      23 days ago

      What about all the movies with guns? It’s much more normal to see a movie about someone getting shot or otherwise killed than see even a titty, much less any genitalia. I’d argue that many more people watch media than play games, if that’s the logic they’re going for.

      Their frustration is completely misdirected also because it’s friggin’ Texas! What do you need to get a gun in that state? A pulse?

      Edit: the dude was 18, how did he even get a gun? You need to be at least 21 to have one. How did he even get an semi-automatic weapon? The fuck?

      Anti Commercial-AI license

          • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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            21 days ago

            Where are you from, exactly?

            There’s no classes of licenses like that in the US. If you are 18 and meet the minimal legal requirements, you can buy a long gun of any type in most states. (Some states are trying to move that age to 21.) That means a single shot, break action, lever action, bolt action, pump, or yes, semi-automatic. Once you hit 21, you can buy handguns. Again: that includes break action, revolvers, and normal semi-automatics.

            The only real restriction in all of this is machine guns; to get those, you need to come up with the $20,000+ that a legal one will cost, and file a transfer application with the BATF, pay a $250 fee, and wait to see if your application is approved or denied. There are some states that prevent individual ownership of machine guns entirely.

      • Railing5132@lemmy.world
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        23 days ago

        I hear what you’re saying, but how many hours are logged by some swimming in images of fps games? I’d argue, from my interaction with teens, that there are far more hours logged than passively watching any media. But that’s not the point anyway.

        Our American society is swimming with a gun obsession. Whether it’s via video games, movies, social media, politicians, the NRA, “2nd ammendment cities” (wtf), and too many more avenues to think of. Games are just one vector of marketing guns to a maleable population. The core of this suit is that a manufacturer was pushing their models within the game in collusion with Activision. I believe advertising guns to a kids demographic is prohibited. I’d search it, but I’m lazy and the AI results would be wrong anyway.

    • dev_null
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      22 days ago

      Do we really think video games are promoting violence?

      No, that’s not their argument. They are saying the gun manufacturer advertised their real life gun in the video game. They don’t have an issue with video game violence, they have an issue with advertising weapons to children.

    • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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      23 days ago

      I’m getting a sense that there are other steps that could have been taken to prevent this tragedy aside from this video game that features guns.

      Do you ever get the sense that it’s possible for more than 1 thing to contribute to an event?

      • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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        23 days ago

        Certainly. Hence, steps. Although, video games is probably not where I would begin if we wish to take this problem seriously. It should be part of a complete plan to address violence involving guns.

    • CharlesReed@kbin.social
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      23 days ago

      People have always blamed video games for violence, even all the way back to Columbine. This isn’t a new argument.

      • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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        23 days ago

        Those arguments were weak then and they are no better now after years of research trying to test whether video games cause violent behavior. I don’t think there’s a need to revisit the same argument — unless of course new information or context that changes things has been found.

        • CharlesReed@kbin.social
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          23 days ago

          Oh, I’m not disagreeing at all. Even with all the evidence that video games aren’t the problem, it’s a convenient scapegoat to point a finger at while ignoring those who actually need to be held accountable.

      • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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        23 days ago

        I’m not sure I understand. When was the last time a video game was used to go on a killing spree?

        The same argument can be used in one context and be wrong, yet used in another context and be right.

        The object in the argument matters. For example, the argument that punishment reduces undesirable behavior. This could be true in criminal justice, but it’s absolutely not true when applied to early child development. It just teaches them to be scared of you if the child isn’t old enough to understand.

        There might be an association between guns and violence. Is that even true for video games?

        • mister_monster@monero.town
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          23 days ago

          That’s not the argument though. The argument is “videogames don’t cause this problem” which is true in both cases.

          • Butt Pirate@reddthat.com
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            23 days ago

            “Of course guns don’t cause this problem says the only country in the world where this regularly happens.”

          • VoterFrog@lemmy.world
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            23 days ago

            Guns may not cause the mental health issues that make people turn violent, but they do allow violent people to become mass murderers. Video games do neither.

      • teawrecks@sopuli.xyz
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        23 days ago

        That’s like saying, replace “video games” with “cars and alcohol” to understand the MADD argument.

          • teawrecks@sopuli.xyz
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            23 days ago

            Sorry, you can’t propose an analogy and expect others to think about it for themselves, but then when presented with a nearly identical analogy, expect others to spend time explaining it to you.

            • mister_monster@monero.town
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              22 days ago

              Oh I can’t ask how it’s identical?

              “Drinking and driving doesn’t kill people, people kill people” oh wait, that’s senseless and they’re not identical… Maybe you responded with this instead of answering my question because you know that.

              “Cars and alcohol don’t kill people people kill people” yeah that’s why it’s drinking and driving that’s illegal, not cars and/or alcohol. But you thought of that already and realized your mistake, which is why you’re dodging.

              Try harder, it’ll do you some good.

              • teawrecks@sopuli.xyz
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                22 days ago

                No no, keep going, you’re so right. It sounds like you agree that demonstrating competency before being granted a driver’s license is useful? And you agree that revoking these licenses when they have demonstrated that they are a risk to public safety is also working out for us?

  • kingthrillgore
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    23 days ago

    “No way to prevent this,” says only country where it happens every fucking day

  • mechoman444@lemmy.world
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    23 days ago

    My heart goes out to the parents of this horrible tragedy and they deserve compensation for their torment.

    But this just feels like a sleazy law firm looking for a quick settlement by exploiting the emotional turmoil this horrible event has caused.

    • TheDarksteel94@sopuli.xyz
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      22 days ago

      That, and probably a lot of untreated and undiagnosed mental health issues. Honestly, I think guns are pretty cool (from a mechanical standpoint) but I would never even want to own one irl or kill anything with one. 'Cause, you know, I’m somewhat sane.

    • Railing5132@lemmy.world
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      23 days ago

      I get what you’re saying, but in the case of the games in question, it’s a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, don’t you agree? Get them while they’re young and impressionable?

  • bblkargonaut@lemmy.world
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    23 days ago

    Star wars has been effectively marketing me lightsabers for years, and I can’t even carve a turkey with mine.

  • thesmokingman@programming.dev
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    23 days ago

    I did some cursory searches to find the actual arguments and came up blank. It’s important to note this isn’t the standard “video games cause violence” lawsuit that has absolutely no merit. This is different. The summary presented in articles is that this gun manufacturer explicitly marketed their product for things like this using a sophisticated campaign. If I understand the summary correctly, it therefore hinges on both the marketing of this specific gun and its presence across the digital landscape. The parents aren’t going after shooting in games; they’re going after a company that actively markets its products on social media and in video games.

    It’s novel. I’m kinda skeptical because the solution would have to limit product placement and advertisement which has a massive lobby. There’s also nothing that really says “this specific gun leads to violence” without implicitly relying on the whole “video games cause violence” which is bullshit.

    • Timecircleline@sh.itjust.works
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      21 days ago

      There’s precedent though. Alcohol and tobacco have significant restrictions on marketing material. I would argue that firearms should fall into the same category.

      My impression was the same- eye roll at the “videogames cause violence” argument that’s been beaten to death, but I actually think they may have a point when it comes to marketing.

      Sadly, I also think that COD is a military recruitment strategy (Boy Boy did a video breaking down the way the American recruiters use COD to capture a certain demographic) so I don’t think this lawsuit will go anywhere. Thought-provoking though.

  • CharlesReed@kbin.social
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    23 days ago

    Every time I think we’ve moved passed this as an argument, it pops back up. They’ll blame anything but those they should be holding accountable.

    • MarjorineFailureGroan@lemmy.world
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      22 days ago

      It seems like they’re saying that it markets guns, not the typical argument that it makes kids violent. This argument seems less crazy to me.

      • CharlesReed@kbin.social
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        22 days ago

        It’s still not a convincing one though. If it wasn’t this weapon used, it would have been another, regardless of where the perp first saw it. I’m not a fan of Activision, but this isn’t on them.

      • abbenm
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        22 days ago

        So I’m not a fan of guns but, “marketing guns” is not per se illegal nor unique to video games. Yet the lawsuit separates out video games specifically. So I am not sure I agree that it’s less crazy at the end of the day.

  • jet@hackertalks.com
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    23 days ago

    This kinda happens when your part of a three trillion dollar company. Those deep pockets attract nuisance lawsuits

  • تحريرها كلها ممكن
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    23 days ago

    They should have sued the coward police department. The rest of the world plays the same games people play in the US. I grew up playing GTA, didn’t steal or shoot anything.

    • MeetInPotatoes
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      23 days ago

      Exactly. And the entire reason I like to kill stuff in video games is that I have zero desire to do it in real life.

  • CaptObvious@literature.cafe
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    23 days ago

    Video games do not promote violence according to any modern ethical research on the question.

    I can’t imagine the pain of these families, and I’d want to lash out at any available target, too. They might even get lucky and have a settlement offer from Activision rather dragging everyone through a trial. But if this even makes it into a courtroom, I would bet that it will ultimately go nowhere. There’s just no credible evidence to support the claim.

    • Certified Asshole@sh.itjust.works
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      23 days ago

      I mean, some game studios consult child psychologists and lawyers to better implement addictive gambling-like mechanics without being liable for that. Media does impact the consumer, and the bigger the initial predisposition, the worse the effect, and kids like shiny animated casino boxes. But violent games that do reach the market and aren’t dead on arrival are mild in that and can only supplement other, more real problems like mental health issues, trauma, neglect, bullying. And in 99.9% cases it’s just an excuse to push them under the carpet. Like, from drawing a line to what makes older demographics cause daily mass shootings. Not videogames, not even guns mostly, but the environment and culture as a whole.

      • CaptObvious@literature.cafe
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        22 days ago

        game studios consult child psychologists and lawyers to better implement addictive gambling-like mechanics without being liable

        For example?

      • CaptObvious@literature.cafe
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        22 days ago

        I mean, some game studios consult child psychologists and lawyers to better implement addictive gambling-like mechanics without being liable for that.

        For example? They couldn’t consult child psychologists for this purpose. It would be an ethics violation of the highest order and would get any license revoked.

        Media does impact the consumer…

        What kind of media? Evidence?

        But violent games that do reach the market and aren’t dead on arrival are mild in that and can only supplement other, more real problems like mental health issues, trauma, neglect, bullying. And in 99.9% cases it’s just an excuse to push them under the carpet. Like, from drawing a line to what makes older demographics cause daily mass shootings. Not videogames, not even guns mostly, but the environment and culture as a whole.

        Again, videogames simply do not influence social behavior. It’s difficult to find credible non-biased research, but here are a couple of relatively recent articles:

        • Tear, Morgan J., and Mark Nielsen. “Failure to Demonstrate That Playing Violent Video Games Diminishes Prosocial Behavior.” PLoS ONE, vol. 8, no. 7, July 2013, pp. 1–7. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0068382.
        • Goodson, Simon, et al. “Violent Video Games and the P300: No Evidence to Support the Neural Desensitization Hypothesis.” CyberPsychology, Behavior & Social Networking, vol. 24, no. 1, Jan. 2021, pp. 48–55. doi: 10.1089/cyber.2020.0029

        What “older demographics”? “Daily mass shootings”? Where do you live?

        All that said, environment does seem to impact social behavior. It’s likely a much stronger influence than a recreational activity.

    • chadac@beehaw.org
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      23 days ago

      There’s evidence that they’re linked to additional violent thinking, but not a sole factor in making a sane, healthy person into a killer. The former is more nuanced than simply "ban because bad correlation’ though

      One thing I wish we could ban are opportunistic suits from hungry law firms that are just hoping that these companies will settle rather than fight an obviously frivolous suit. This is an insult to the civil legal system

      • CaptObvious@literature.cafe
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        22 days ago

        What evidence links video games to violent thinking? I’m unaware of any.

        That question aside, there’s simply no evidence that gaming impacts behavior, which as you suggest is the major interest here.

        One thing I wish we could ban are opportunistic suits from hungry law firms that are just hoping that these companies will settle rather than fight an obviously frivolous suit. This is an insult to the civil legal system

        Agreed on all points.

        • chadac@beehaw.org
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          22 days ago

          So here’s an article on a meta-analysis that covers the a positive correlation. You can also see some newer individual studies that link it to certain violent behaviors such as the treatment of firearms.

          Of course, media often overblows such studies because they don’t understand what a strong or weak correlation is and what behaviors these studies are correlating against, which leads to a lot of misunderstanding. Social science may be among the most difficult of the sciences simply because it is measuring patterns with unique biases in their subjects, such as the Hawthorne effect, and extremely high variance that can be difficult to address. For example, the frequency at which and types of games people play now vs 30 years ago is radically different. This is why meta-analyses that examine results across many studies can be valuable, as it often takes repeated studies under changing methodologies and populations to get a proper idea of a social correlation.

          I should also emphasize that a positive correlation doesn’t really imply games need to be banned or controlled. In fact the articles linked above mention exactly that – the real concern with a lot of studies is the influence of violent video games on children and their propensity to bully. This doesn’t necessarily imply that video games should be banned, but it can be helpful for guidance to counselors to understand how even minor factors influence social dynamics.

  • PowerCrazy
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    23 days ago

    If and only If this law suit leads to the banning of advertisements across all media, I’d be 100% for it. But that isn’t the purpose, it’s purpose is a cash grab for a law firm.

  • Katana314@lemmy.world
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    22 days ago

    The most agonizing debate is one you agree with, but not nearly to the extreme degree of the position you’re responding to.

    There are some nuts out there that literally only buy a certain gun because “it’s in Call of Duty and it’s cool.” Worse, this demographic are not likely to be responsible gun owners - they are not buying for any perceived need. They don’t lock their guns correctly, or keep ammo separate. Those guns are the type most likely to be stolen for use in a mass shooting (or used by their owners). Arguably, those guns are designed to appeal to this exact crowd, not serve as a functional tool or hobby item.

    That said, there are much better targets for gun legislation than “scary looking black guns” or Call of Duty’s choice of theme.

  • adderaline@beehaw.org
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    22 days ago

    some of y’all definitely aren’t reading the article. this isn’t a “video games cause violence” thing. they are suing Activision and the gun manufacturer Daniel Defense for marketing a specific model of gun in Call of Duty, and maybe? that the Uvalde shooter used that same model of gun in the shooting. i dunno if there’s merit to the argument, but like, categorically, this isn’t the “video games cause violence” argument y’all seem to think it is. its about a gun manufacturer advertising their product in a video game.

    • abbenm
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      22 days ago

      So I did read the article, and… I’m not understanding a word you are saying. The families are suing a video game company for a gun in their video game. Also the article is not at all making the emphasis that you are making between marketing a specific game and video games writ large (the article kind of speaks to both of those at the same time and isn’t making any such distinction), so I don’t know what you are talking about. As far as the article is concerned this has everything to do with the fact that the gun was in a video game, and even Activisions statement in response was to defend themselves from the idea that their video game is a thing that pushing people to violence. So even Activision understands the lawsuit as tying their video game to violence.

      I’m not saying I agree with the logic of the suit, but I literally have no idea what you think in the article separates out video games from the particular model of gun because that is just not a thing the article does at all.

      • adderaline@beehaw.org
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        22 days ago

        I’m not understanding a word you are saying

        that makes two of us, i guess? i don’t know what it is you’re trying to say i was saying. to be more clear, i’ve been seeing a lot of talk in this thread arguing against the “video games cause violence” claim, as if that was what the lawsuit was about. i don’t think the contents of the article present the families’ lawsuit as primarily concerning that particular claim. i then attempted to describe what i believe their actual claim to be.

        i’ve emphasized the words i think are relevant here:

        These new lawsuits, one filed in California and the other in Texas, turn attention to the marketing and sale of the rifle used by the shooter. The California suit claims that 2021’s Call of Duty: Modern Warfare featured the weapon, a Daniel Defense M4 V7, on a splash screen, and that playing the game led the teenager to research and then later purchase the gun hours after his 18th birthday.

        that Call of Duty’s simulation of recognizable guns makes Activision “the most prolific and effective marketer of assault weapons in the United States.”

        the fact that Activision and Meta are framing this as an extension of the “video games cause violence” thing is certainly what they’ve decided to do, but it seems to be talking past what the complaint and lawsuit are about, which is the marketing of a Daniel Defense M4 V7 in 2021’s Call of Duty: Modern Warfare.

        the reason i emphasized the gun model is that that seems, to me, to be the core feature of the case the families are trying to make. not that video games cause violence, but that Activision bears responsibility for the actions of the shooter because the shooter played their game, then proceeded to kill people with the specific model of gun that was being advertised in that game. the fact that the article takes the time to reference another case where the specific naming of a gun model lead to a sizable settlement, and says this

        The notion that a game maker might be held liable for irresponsibly marketing a weapon, however, seems to be a new angle.

        seems to support my reading. that isn’t the same thing as saying video games make you violent, which is the claim a bunch of people in this thread seem to be shadowboxing.

        i dunno, maybe there’s some ambiguity there? are you arguing that the lawsuit is about rehashing the video games make you violent claim, or what? i genuinely don’t know what you’re trying to communicate to me. i hope this clarified my stance.

  • Bookmeat@lemmy.world
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    23 days ago

    Gun makers in the USA cozying up to government law makers to keep gun laws loose especially with respect to export and control is the force driving gun violence in the USA. Follow the $$$.