Because what the US considers left (universal health care, helping the poor, school lunches and affordable education) is considered middle of the road normal stuff in Europe and other developed countries.
Even the historical, biggest right wing party in Denmark would not remove any of the things you mentioned, except school lunches.
A lot of people have left-leaning economic views ( tax the rich ) but there’s basically no political or media representation of those views. ( because the rich run the media and government )
This is the correct answer.
There is social liberalism to satisfy mainstream liberalism but there is little to no representation on behalf of fiscal liberalism.
Easy: even if you vote for Bernie that’s still at best center-left. The US just really, really leans right overall: there’s center-right (democrats) and far-right (republicans) and that’s about it.
You guys are so afraid of socialism no party dares venture the true left.
Americans being afraid of socialism is proof that propaganda works. It’s literally for the people.
As does decades of systematically defunding education. The decades of leaded gas/paint by prior generations probably weren’t helping…
Joe Biden is now the Nickelback /Big Bang Theory of Presidents.
There’s nothing really bad about him, nothing really great, but they’ve been told to hate on him, so that’s what they’ll do.
Ill hate his fucking guts as long as I live for his handling of Israel and Gaza
Fair enough.
I think your statement is true in a purely national sense. We’ve had better but we’ve had worse. Globally, he’s majorly dropped the ball and caused too much suffering to ignore.
nothing really bad about him
Uh, except his racism? FFS, we can demand better.
the genocide doesnt count?
Here in Czechia, we had socialism a few decades ago. Pretty much everyone old enough to remember it hates it.
Socialism is not a ‘one thing’ . It’s a concept as a whole. You can have good or bad socialism and everything in between.
The world is far more nuanced than that.
Do you have working examples of good socialism?
I’ll give some examples of great implementations of socialism that drives welfare in today’s democracies, as I personally believe that socialism can’t exist without democracy, as it’s one of the core values of the concept, that’s it’s controlled by the people.
One of socialisms ultimate goals are also equality, which my examples will show.
- Free education
- UBI if you get fired
- UBI for old people
- UBI for students
- Free health care (duh)
- Free dental (normally only till age of 18 today)
- Basic insurance paid by the government
These are just the big ones that really helps to make sure that very few people are actually poor and are getting desperate because of it.
Also, it’s always important to say that socialism and capitalism are NOT mutually exclusive. It’s perfectly normal to have all these concepts from socialism in a capitalist country.
I think we can agree that a country with 100% capitalism or socialism is not the best way to go.
Good explanation. Just one nit to pick over word choice: “Capitalism” is not a synonym for “free market”.
Capitalism is a separate ideology that champions (even romanticizes) the acquisition and hoarding of wealth at all costs. It leads to trusts, monopolies, stifling of competition and, eventually, the death of the free market.
In other words: Socialism and free markets are compatible. Socialism and Capitalism are not.
And a good chunk of our parties are now far far right.
Added bonus: it’s not just socialism that we’re afraid of. We fear tons of things now. We’ve become a nation of fear and boiling hate under the hood and it’s truly toxic.
Yes, I’ve been working to leave for a few years now. My children shouldn’t have to grow up in a culture of barely surviving, anxiety & fearful people scrabbling over scraps left to us by the ultra wealthy.
I left 6 years ago and don’t regret it for a minute.
Where did you move to?
Netherlands
Because the American left would be considered right wing in most of the world.
The Democrats would be the conservative party in my country. The Republicans would be watched by law enforcement for fascistic tendencies, or already outright illegal.
Which country?
Germany. We learned our lessons about fascism. The US didn’t, and if they don’t get their acts together, they soon will. Then may God help us all.
and yet we both have a significant problem with neo-nazis and right wing fascism.
and its because, despite laws and common sense, media goes easy on them and gives them a soft hand.
Didn’t the CDU dominate Germany for decades? Christian Democrats are much more socially conservative than the American Democratic party. Weird flex, not okay.
CDU is center-right.
I would not rate the German CDU as more conservative than the US Democrats, at least not significantly.
It’s really as simple as this. The left in countries like the UK and Ireland would be radical to the US.
Because there is no party available to elect, who care for the workers/people.
You have a system that is designed to take money from the poor and lower class and give it to the rich. You don’t have proper workers rights, spend about twice the amount for healthcare compared to an European person and get substantially less out of it. People work more than 40h/week in more than one job and can’t make ends meet… There are vast rural parts that look more like a third world country. Everything is made for commerce and nobody cares for LGBT people or women unless there’s some money or publicity in it.
And you have about 2 parties who both participate and stand for that scheme.
I agree. In my opinion there are two huge dominating factors.
First is the almost ubiquitous winner-takes-all election structure in the US, leading to the two party system. There is, bar none, no fair competition in US government at a level high enough to matter.
Second, the lack of term limits allows certain people in certain positions to perpetuate momentum. In part this happens by hand picking successors through brute-force out funding the competition (in part due to the economic disparity that others in this thread have mentioned).
Sure. Also silly tactics like Gerrymandering need to stop.
I’m not sure if these are the most pressing topics.
I think for one lobbyism needs to go for good. It’s deeply undemocratic to give people money and then they’ll pass your laws. And not the ones that’d benefit the people who elected them.
Maybe the members of the senate should be exchanged. Seems to me they’re playing kindergarten games all day, blocking everything instead of doing their job.
And media is a big part if a democracy. And the media situation in the US seems beyond bad. People need actual information to make good decisions who to elect. Not a show filled with emotion where two old men compete against each orher like in a staged wrestling match.
And you need more parties. And they need to get like 10-15% of the votes. For example a party addressing the young people who complain that they never can afford to buy a house like their parents were still able to buy. A party catering to the people who don’t live in the big cities. The farmers and rural people with different needs. A party who stands for the lower class people, the workers. Maybe something green, repairing the power grid in Texas and adding some more solar in the sunny south to the oil.
Google the term Overton window
Oberton I think
Happens to the best of us
No, they were right the first time.
Yeah, I know, so I was expressing empathy to the oberton commenter.
Because liberals are just center of right. If you go too far left things become better for workers and not the ruling shit heads.
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what happens when you go far left??
my last interaction with them convinced me they aren’t any different from the alt right.
Allow me to enlighten you by illustrating how both sides are absolutely not the same
Some highlights:
There is a stark difference in the means with which the two groups engage in acts of extremism. In a study evaluating Left-Wing and Right-Wing domestic extremism between 1994 and 2020, there was one fatality as the result of Left-Wing extremism, versus 329 fatalities resulting from Far Right extremism in that 25 year period. [5]
The Far-Right movement is the oldest and most deadly form of domestic terrorism in the United States, and The Anti-Defamation League Center on Extremism found that the Far-Right is responsible for 98% of extremist murders in the U.S. [24] Furthermore, for nearly every year since 2011, Far-Right terrorist attacks/plots have accounted for over half of all terror attacks/plots in the United States. [21]
In the U.S., Right-Wing extremism was responsible for two-thirds of all failed, foiled, or successful terror attacks in 2019, and was responsible for 90% of attacks in the first half of 2020 alone. [21] Since 2013, Far-Right extremism has been responsible for more terror attacks/plots than the Left-Wing, ethnonationalism, or religiously motivated attacks/plots. [21]
These are excerpts from a blog post of mine, but I have ads turned off and do not benefit in any way from it.
so,same shit different pile??
Did you read any of that?
I did,it compared right wing extermism to left wing extremism. one had more death than the other but extremism nonetheless…hence same shit different pile.
or are you suggesting being a left wing extremist is the better option than say being in the middle ground…because death??
One death from left wing extremism in 25 years, versus 329 from the right, 32900% more. To say that this is the “same shit” is clearly absurd. We aren’t discussing the merits of the middle ground. You seem to be suggesting that just because something is labelled as “extremist” it is automatically bad, regardless of what it actually is or what harm it causes.
one extreme isn’t exactly better than the other. they are extremes and should be regarded as such.
left extremism does not represent good neither does it represent evil,same goes for right wing extremism.
what i find interesting is people seem to think left wing extremism is the ONLY way to go,ignoring the fact that left wing extremism also practice discrimination, ostracism,bigotry and racism,not that much different from right wing extremism.
Extremism is not good or bad, just like being in the middle is not good or bad either. What matters is what’s correct.
For example, between being pro-fascism and anti-fascism, anti-fascism is both extreme and correct.
sure,if that’s what you think is correct.
i am sure when you preach that being gay is God’s intention,i am sure Christians and Muslim will agree that correct.
don’t forget to label me a homophobe if that’s what it is now.
No. Completely different and entirely incompatible.
When you go far left, you have ideologies like Socialism, Communism, and Anarchism, all ideologies that oppose unjust hierarchy and advocate for the good of all.
The far-right is completely different from the far-left, because the far-right has ideologies like fascism and feudalism. This is an inherently violent, reactionary position found to uphold the status quo, ie the division of power, via absolute measures.
These are not the same.
This simply means you’re either a liberal or a fascist.
Other people have already posted good answers so I just want to add a couple things.
If you want a very simple, concrete example: Healthcare. It depends on how you count, but more than half the world’s countries have some sort of free or low cost public healthcare, whereas in the US, the richest country in the history of countries, that’s presented as radical left wing kooky unrealistic communist Bernie idea. This isn’t an example of a left-wing policy that we won’t adopt, but of what in much of the world is a normal public service that we can’t adopt because anti-socialism in this country is so malignant and metastasized that it can be weaponized against things that are just considered normal public services almost like roads in other countries.
A true left wing would support not just things like healthcare, but advocate for an economic system in which workers have control over their jobs, not the bosses. That is completely absent.
Also, this meme:
It’s glib, but it’s not wrong. Both parties routinely support American militarism abroad. Antimilitarism in favor of internationalism has been a corner stone for the left since the left began.
in my world, that’s called same shit different pile.
also,while i am no right wing supporter, i constantly run into leftist who wouldn’t hesitate to brand me a phobe of their convenience ,none of the right leaning people i interacted with does this… anecdotal i know.
Yeah, but no one lives in your world but you. In the real world, you’re so hilariously off the mark.
i constantly run into leftist who wouldn’t hesitate to brand me a phobe of their convenience ,none of the right leaning people i interacted with does this… anecdotal i know.
Maybe the leftist has a point because you actually align with the right? Crazy, I know, but I’ve seen this argument play out irl more than once with some rightoids that loved to pretend their politics weren’t right aligned.
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hey, whatever floats your boat.
sometimes it’s ok to disagree on things and be on our merry ways.
have a good day 😊
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You don’t need to engage with fascists, they’re not going to listen and they’re sure as hell not going to learn.
hey,if you felt triggered because i chose not to use euphemisms,i am sorry you felt that way.
george carlin was quite spot on in his observations regarding the use of language in america.
have a good day 😊
“I constantly complain about anyone left of Thatcher and have reactionary social views, the people who agree with me don’t criticise me. Curious!”
that’s a strange observation,given i actually criticise both left and right rather than just the left.
Uh huh, of course.
So it’s pronouns right? that’s what’s got you worked up?
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You just confirmed its pronouns.
i just confirmed i don’t care about pronouns unless you want to make it so.
This image from 2020 sums it up decently…
Also: you guys messed up the colors for the parties, red is for left leaning parties, blue is for right leaning. But I guess that is just the US being the US, like temperature, weight and distance units.
I guess because they switched positions a long while ago.
Wait, Reps used to be left of Dems?
The Republican party was Lincoln’s party. Look at were they stand now.
For 30 years it was the same way as the UK, based on the system. It wasn’t until Gore v Dubya that the NYT printed it in colour with red being republican. The reason? Both red and republican start with R… They really knew their audience!
Because all the true is gone.
There’s no leftist party, nothing Socialist in the least. The furthest “left” you go is the DNC, which is liberal, and therefore right wing. The furthest right you go is the GOP, which is fascist.
A few years ago I would have agreed with this statement. But lately, I’ve seen a change described in several press articles and news pieces. The younger generations in the US demand true social justice and aren’t afraid to say they’re socialists, against capitalism or consumerism. It’s a burgeoning revolution of course, since the establishment is still in control of traditional political parties. But this crack in the old broken system could bring about positive change in the long run. At least I hope so.
Compared to the rest of the first world countries, our farthest left candidates are relatively moderate.
Politics is about power structures. Both of America’s parties support the same structure, capitalism.
@return2ozma@lemmy.world One way to think about “the left” is that it values freedom from domination. Who in the US is fighting to reduce the level of domination we experience in important areas of life (health care, education, food, housing to name a few)? Should we really have to pay and put ourselves into debt–thereby becoming dominated–to go to school, live somewhere, or maintain our health? Even the so-called left in the US supports this arrangement generally; at best they fight over the details, not the structure itself.
It also funnels down to freedom from bureaucracy too. Look at how hard it is in many places to legally build a non-fancy home on your own property. Endless restrictions, regulations, permits and inspections. Nobody is trying to free us from this.
Right! And the US Democratic party seems to be obsessed with means testing, so that many times when there is government assistance available people who need it are forced to subject themselves to intrusive surveillance, frequent paperwork and sometimes shifting requirements, etc. It’s rare (in my experience) to hear anyone critique this state of affairs, let alone make substantive moves to change it.
I think there’s value in what you’re calling attention to.
“Freedom” vs “domination” though has nothing to do with the left or right of a government (in theory). You’re actually referring to libertarianism vs authoritarianism, which is (again, in theory) independent from economic structure.
@genie@lemmy.world I did not draw a dichotomy nor make a universal definition. I stated that the left is concerned with freedom from domination, which is undeniably true. What else do words like “equality” and “equity” mean? I did not state or suggest that this was the only concern, but it’s clearly an important one.
I didn’t say that you did?
I respectfully disagree that “the left is concerned with freedom from domination” is “undeniably true”. I think there’s a lot of room for debate here that you’re frankly not interested in.
@genie@lemmy.world You don’t have any idea what I’m interested in.
I am definitely not interested in being condescended to, that’s for sure, so bye.
Nah bud. you can’t separate social theory from economic theory in general terms. They are one and the same. How your currency is used and controlled and by who for what is social theory.
They are related (in practice) but I disagree that they’re one “and” the same. Freedom from domination can exist in the left or the right.
Demonizing the views that you don’t hold as inherently opposed to freedom is how the US got to this point in this awful no spectrum of views two party system in the first place.
(By the way, just noticed your username. How’re’ya’now bud?)
Oh yah know
Freedom from domination cannot exist in the right, as domination is the method by which production occurs. The right must whitewash domination, clean it, yet still use it, to operate.
Are you suggesting that there is no production without domination?
No, not at all. I’m suggesting that when production is directed by an owner class, the worker class is dominated. If the workers collectively or individually own the means of production, there is no domination.
On that point I’m with you! It’s painfully obvious in today’s wealth disparity in the US.
Where it breaks down for me is your argument that it’s only possible to have a dominating dynamic in a right wing regime. Would you really argue that the CCP does not impose a dominating dynamic over the people of China?
No. Capitalism, feudalism, monarchism, and so forth are built on domination, ie hierarchy, while leftist structures such as Socialism, Communism, and Anarchism advocate collective ownership so as to combat this.
The reason that type of left is ignored because it’s dumber than libertarianism. At least the mirror of it realizes someone has to pay for it (perhaps those want to use it), and just doesn’t like the coercive mandate. You, though, both don’t want to be coerced AND think it all oughtta be free because…forcing people to give you free shit is not being dominated? “I want to be a lazy bully” isn’t the intellectual flex you think it is.
@John_McMurray@lemmy.world Thank you for supplying the “someone has to pay for it” canard, which is one of many reasons the US doesn’t have a functional left politics. Neoclassical economics brain poisoning.
You have never once engaged honestly with what a leftist believes.
I’ve never ate horseshit either.
Really? How’d it get in your mouth then, for you to spit it everywhere?
Is this what passes for clever in your mind?
I chuckled a bit when I wrote it.
