- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.org
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.org
The White House statement comes after a week of frantic negotiations in the Senate.
President Joe Biden on Friday urged Congress to pass a bipartisan bill to address the immigration crisis at the nation’s southern border, saying he would shut down the border the day the bill became law.
“What’s been negotiated would — if passed into law — be the toughest and fairest set of reforms to secure the border we’ve ever had in our country,” Biden said in a statement. “It would give me, as President, a new emergency authority to shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed. And if given that authority, I would use it the day I sign the bill into law.”
Biden’s Friday evening statement resembles a ramping up in rhetoric for the administration, placing the president philosophically in the camp arguing that the border may hit a point where closure is needed. The White House’s decision to have Biden weigh in also speaks to the delicate nature of the dealmaking, and the urgency facing his administration to take action on the border — particularly during an election year, when Republicans have used the issue to rally their base.
The president is also daring Republicans to reject the deal as it faces a make-or-break moment amid GOP fissures.
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What a stupid thing to focus on. I hate that the southern border is even a topic people bring up. It’s a completely made up problem.
B-but scawwy foreigners!
75% of this country thinks the border is in crisis. I fucking hate it.
If we had a political party with the courage to say “It’s not a crisis, quit falling for bullshit” that number would go down
Not by much, I’d wager. Democrats don’t tend to sway their opinions much when the party takes a different line than the majority Dem opinion, and Republicans are too racist to change their views on the border.
It would be nice to have a voice of sanity in the fucking country, though.
A majority of Democratic voters in the 40s and 50s thought segregation was a state issue the federal government should stay out of because they didn’t want the controversy, but some Democratic leaders saw it differently, and thank goodness they did because without them pushing the issue along with civil rights activists we never would have gotten (among other things) a voting rights act.
It wouldn’t just be nice to have a voice of sanity, it’s the only way this issue is getting any better imo
While Truman’s advocacy of civil rights in the '48 platform is definitely pivotal in terms of effecting policy, I would raise the question as to how much of the change in opinions was due to the party tack, and how much was due to the ongoing and revitalized post-WW2 civil rights movement and increasing integration and civic participation of liberal blocs in the north.
I suppose it’s academic in the end. I would love for the Dem party to take up the issue, like I said. It’s just a ‘chicken or the egg’ question.
I think the border is in crisis. Our shitty policies make it incredibly and unnecessarily difficult for people to enter the country seeking asylum or a legal means of getting citizenship. I would say the camps of people stuck on the other side of the border, prey to criminals who would rape, steal, and murder (not to mention the asylum-seekers vulnerable to those they are seeking asylum from) are the biggest part of that crisis.
So I’m not sure if I’d be considered part of that 75%, because my solution is to make the system more efficient in letting people in and started with paths to citizenship. Then there wouldn’t be masses of people at the border.
Yeah, but when most people say “Border crisis”, they don’t mean “Holy shit refugees are in inhumane conditions, we need to help them”, they mean “I’m scared that there are too many brown people coming into MY good, white, Christian country!”
Oh, no, definitely agree, that’s why I say I’m not really what one would include in that 75%.
The legislation had funding for more staff and judges to be able to process asylum requests faster. The GOP got some stupid shit in there that probably wouldn’t hold up in court (typical tough guy posturing shit), but there were some good things in there too.
My understanding is that the US has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. Is that not the case?
If other countries didn’t have immigration standards, I’d be European by now…
Heck most Americans don’t know that before the end of Roe V. Wade America had one of the most liberal Abortion Policies in the world… the amount of Pro-Choicers fighting 20 week bans who’s heads would explode if they ever learned 6 week bans was the norm for most of the developed world.
No no, scary brown people
They’re perfectly fine with white foreigners that either speak English or have enough money/power they don’t care.
No one ever has a problem with the Canadian Immigrants, even though Ted Cruz did more wrong for this nation than Jose wokring under the table at the farms for under minimum wage
Every 2 years like fucking clockwork there’s a “border crisis” to waste time and energy on, which promptly disappears from public consciousness and media the day after the election. It’s tiring
Remember how Democrats losing a mid-term was all that was needed to cure every case of Ebola in the United States?
Which consisted of… that one nurse Chris Christie kidnapped and kept insisting had Ebola…
Its an election year so theres magically another immigrant surge that needs to be fixed.
According to the DHS,
Affirmative asylum case filings with USCIS nearly quadrupled from 63,074 applications in 2021 to 238,841 in 2022, the highest number on record.
The total number of defensive asylum applications filed with EOIR nearly tripled from 88,162 in 2021 to 253,524 in 2022, the highest on record.
I don’t have the numbers for all of 2023 in front of me but they’re higher than the ones for 2022. (And keep in mind that not everyone crossing the border files an asylum application.)
Hundreds of thousands more people than normal are entering across the border, and existing systems for accommodating them are overwhelmed. Maybe the best solution is not closing the border, but thinking that there is no problem is inconsistent with reality.
Yeah it sounds like we need to better fund our asylum program.
Crazy idea, but we all came to this country as immigrants, and wiped out most of the population that was already here. Seems a little ironic to me that we’re now concerned about who can and can’t live here.
I live in New York City, where as of the beginning of December 2023,
According to the city’s Department of Social Services, more than 157,600 asylum seekers arrived in New York City since last spring [2022] in need of shelter and more 67,000 remain in the city’s care, with hundreds more arriving every day.
That’s about 2% of the population of the city. The ones still in shelters have more than doubled the city’s homeless population. If we stopped being concerned about these people then they would be outside without food and shelter, and it gets quite cold around here. However, being concerned about them is projected to cost the city more than ten billion dollars over the next three years, which is a lot of money even for a city this big.
Something needs to be done at the federal level. Right now the federal government is letting a lot of people in and then doing very little to take care of them once they’re in the country, and that’s not working.
I agree, we should be helping people that come into this country seeking refuge from war, and shitty economic conditions in their own countries, not demonizing them.
We aren’t doing that, we are instead using them as political pawns for browny points with each political parties respective base. Instead of seeing them as people.
so you agree this is really just a funding issue at the federal level?
youre of course pushing your representatives to increase funding for all immigration programs, right?
There are two separate questions here.
Do I think this could be solved with (much) more funding at the federal level? Yes, that’s one way to do it, and better than letting people in without allocating such funding.
Do I think that’s the ideal solution? No, I don’t think the USA should be letting in everyone who crosses the border, with little to no screening. There are many people who have applied through official channels and waited for many years; let them in first rather than rewarding the ones who skip the line.
(Australia has a policy that asylum seekers who arrive without a visa will be sheltered in refugee camps until it is safe for them to leave, but they will not be allowed to move freely in the country or given any more opportunities to become permanent residents than they would have had if they applied for a visa. I think something like that may be a good idea.)
both things here are resolved with solid immigration funding.
yep, we should be letting Everyone… at least to the door, where we can then screen them. and then take appropriate action.
you do have a point that the immigration process is broken. that it takes a decade to get in is absolutely due to racism and conservative policies, which requires more than funding… it would take compassionate politicians.
I’m an immigrant myself. I came here with a refugee visa when I was a child, and that was extremely fortunate for me - the place where I was born is now a war zone. I’m a strong supporter of allowing in the people who have applied, passed all the checks, and waited patiently. It’s a win-win situation, good for the immigrants and good for this country. I’m saying that so you can understand where I’m coming from. I’m not afraid of or hostile to immigrants, I just want the current, broken system fixed in a way that’s fair to the people who are trying to come here legally. I don’t see that happening soon.
sounds like we need to floood our immigration system with cash so we can finally help all those human beings. you want to help human beings, right?
If we had open borders, I bet 99% of Americans wouldn’t even notice a change in their day-to-day life. Old peoples’ obsession with the border is tiring as fuck. I just don’t understand any they care so much about something that doesn’t affect them, other than to simply be racist.
This is not what I hear from people I know who are working here in Texas in the RGV. Many communities down there are overwhelmed with people. Politically, there is a real risk that what has been a Democratic stronghold in Texas is moving to the right based on just this one issue. Either way, there is legitimately a crisis happening down there
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if we had solid immigration policies, and a path for immigration through the southern border, and we actually staffed/supported it financially you wouldnt see all this
but we dont
we dont manage immigrants with the expectation they are going to come in and become citizens, and help them do so. racists are so hard set against helping people enter this country successfully it creates the environment you describe.
if you want to solve for what youre afraid of; push for easier immigration. push for immigration centers all along the border. push for services to help relocate recent immigrants.
this could all easily be accomplished.
we dont because > 50% of the country are fucking racist
No argument here with anything you just said, but it also doesn’t contradict anything I said. It’s easy to feel angry about our government’s failures and it’s easy to imagine ideal solutions. What’s a lot more difficult is accepting the reality of where we are right now and taking concrete steps toward making things better in the face of a very influential right-wing political and media machine that opposes all solutions. I think Biden is doing a fantastic job navigating this problem
Sure buddy, immigrants are super scary…
Where did you get that immigrants are scary from anything I said? I said there’s too many people for the small communities along the Rio Grande Valley to handle
Gee, maybe voting for small government Republicans for decades wasn’t such a great idea? I’d love for the federal government to be doing more to provide social services down there but you should be honest about how those communities all got so fragile to begin with and take your problems to the voters of Texas.
I’m really trying to understand your point in regards to what I said above
Those small communities are only unable to handle things because they have massively underfunded all their government agencies and social services. If the voters of Texas hadn’t sent budget busting morons to the state legislature for decades they wouldn’t be in this situation.
You don’t know that. Any community would face some challenges with a sudden influx of people. And money is not infinite. This is just slinging vitriol around.
If it were really a fucking crisis, Republicans wouldn’t be torpedoing the bill that would presumably fix the problem. It’s a political game and it always has been. Biden threatening to shut down the border only serves to take away the conservative’s political cudgel, something that they’re desperately going to need if they want voter turnout in November.
For as long as I’ve been alive, there’s been an “immigration issue” or “border crisis”. For as long as this country has been a country xenophobes have made the argument that immigration itself is a problem.
This.
And when Texas does anything to move immigrants the enlightened left grows self-righteous about how the immigrants are supposed to be cared for where they are.
Then you widely hear a sentiment: “Bussing immigrants in any form is obviously the result of lies and subterfuge”. Why else would they get on a bus to a sanctuary city/state?
The left needs to do some soul searching. If having a dozen busses show up gets you really bothered, then you’re less tolerant than you’re expecting Texas to be.
I’m solidly on the left. Pretty far along that spectrum. I’m far enough I don’t mind busses, especially if coordinated. But we cannot have an open border of any kind and no willingness to help. It’s asinine.
And when Texas does anything to move immigrants the enlightened left grows self-righteous about how the immigrants are supposed to be cared for where they are.
I have never heard this argument, personally. Me and my enlightened left homies think sharing the burden across cities and states is necessary, but that lying to people and doing it with zero planning or notice is abhorrent
Mobile isn’t allowing me to link, but I’d submit I have a reply (not yours) that starts to hit the notes I mentioned.
Lemmy, a known left haven, gets very upset about immigrants not being treated well. I’m good with that.
When the insistence that the good treatment happen elsewhere, it looks damn foolish.
Edit to add: in the past, articles about bussing here insistently called human trafficking and the allegation was solidly that immigrants were being herded or lied to to get them on busses.
Mobile isn’t allowing me to link
Haven’t figured out how to copy/paste on mobile yet? Really?
self-righteous about how the immigrants are supposed to be cared for where they are.
this is objectively false. bussing immigrants around the country and then calling out unprepared states does not count
When I see an article about busses bringing immigrants, I have often found a high ranked comment about human trafficking and alleging this was all done with lies. That the bussing is immoral.
That was about a month ago.
I took down votes then, too. Except then my point was that if I was an immigrant one of the last places I’d want to remain is south Texas. Give me that bus ticket to a blue state.
It just looked like resentment that they were arriving in blue states and sanctuary cities. The same places that have long described immigrants as net positives.
Edit: “objectively false” when I have the conversation history. This is why I point to the undeserved certainty to lemmy throws around on topics.
It just looked like resentment that they were arriving in blue states and sanctuary cities. The same places that have long described immigrants as net positives.
I think it’s more that they’re being dropped off with no communication, coordination, planning, or notice at all. Just random bus loads of immigrants arriving in the night thinking there will be resources there to help them.
Oh, and then you get the obvious PR moves like bus loads showing up unannounced at the Vice President’s official residence in the middle of the night during a time where the temperatures were dangerously low. It’s sick – just using immigrants as a PR stunt to “own the libs.”
Significant portions of those involved on the thread were sure it was human trafficking. Spoke and voted that way.
I’m not saying the stunt portion of bussing is okay. But finding a term that diminishes the agency of immigrants and makes their appearance in blue areas the act of unlawful human trafficking (a specific and high bar to cross)… It just seemed convenient that everything about the arrival of immigrants was wrong.
I work with immigrants. They’re smart, capable and just want a shot at the dream. I’m not against immigration. I’m against lemmy seeming to find convenient reasons why it’s okay to happen until it happens nearby.
Those threads are not hard to find.
Texas is not responsible to house every immigrant that crosses the border. You didn’t say it, but others imply it.
The bussing is immoral when they’re bussed into a town that isn’t expecting them and just dropped off. If Texas wants to coordinate the bussing with the destination cities/towns, fine do that. I have no problem with that. But when people are carted to a fucking Chicago suburb with no cold weather clothing in the dead of winter and just dropped the fuck off, how can you see that as anything but immoral?
I’ve never said that all conditions of the bussing are moral. Only that bussing itself isn’t immoral. Or human trafficking (as is often posited).
I’ve specifically said the stunt part isn’t cool. The bussing part… Can be.
I mostly agree with you, but it’s libs/Dems, not the left.
RIP nuked threads?
Channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan has been doing some great pieces lately including a couple good ones on the border recently. It’s a serious issue for both sides of the political spectrum. Hence the point of the OP article.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dQ4-VNaG3s - Migrant Detention Camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buZWVQuqx0o - Arizona Border Crisis
Channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan has been doing some great pieces lately including a couple good ones on the border recently.
As others have said, border control issues are a serious problem on either political spectrum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dQ4-VNaG3s - Migrant Detention Camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buZWVQuqx0o - Arizona Border Crisis
Do we not like Channel 5 or something? I find their interviews interesting most of the time.
If it challenges the narrative on Lemmy, it gets downvoted.
The flood of immigrants crossing the southern border has been deemed a non issue by the liberal hivemind, and any evidence or arguments to the contrary will not be tolerated.
I’m just surprised because I feel like liberals generally care about the welfare of the people coming theough. The “flood of immigrants” isn’t a problem. The fact that we don’t devote enough resources into processing them and making sure they are safe/have a place to go is the problem in my view (and I would argue that’s generally the consensus with most of the left).
You want a better life? You’re welcome here. We’re the wealthiest country in human history. There’s plenty of room on this boat. We just need a significantly better onboarding system and to stop looking at immigrants as invaders. They’re here for the exact same reasons. We should be jumping to help them. That’s what being an American should be.
Here’s the thing. My wife originally came to the US on a tourist visa. She went through a long process to get that visa. I am concerned by the idea of people walking into the country without any screening whatsoever.
I believe the majority of these immigrants are fine people. But with poverty comes crime, often out of necessity. And when these individuals enter the country illegally, it means they don’t have working papers. Depending on where they go, they won’t have driver’s licenses or insurance. They likely won’t have health insurance. Many won’t be paying taxes out of fear of deportation, and because they can get away with it. I’m not generalizing here - I have known many good people in this exact situation, and I know the challenges that come with being undocumented.
My wife would tell you that she’s concerned with who may be coming over that border. I am concerned about what comes with a flood of persons who are destined to be stuck in the lower class.
These are not unfair or unreasonable concerns. Look at the level of gang violence in Mexico. Nobody else is concerned that these persons can walk into the US without question? Nobody is thinking about what these people will do once here? I didn’t even touch on what working conditions look like, or housing, for undocumented immigrants.
The people espousing that the open border is a non issue are living in a fairy tale with no regard for long term implications or the human element of what’s happening here
Is there actually a large cohort of people that think we should have a completely open border with no screening process? I’ve never seen that advocated for outside of those who want to completely abolish Nation-States and that’s definitely not a large group.
Devote proper resources to screen, process, and take care of these people. We aren’t doing that.
On Lemmy, absolutely.
And, I mean look at the comments in general. Whenever this topic comes up people call it a non-issue, people say the issue doesn’t exist, people say who cares if people are coming over the border, you have people citing studies showing illegal immigrant populations are generally less violent than citizens. People want to justify the relative inaction of Biden. Now, I voted for the man, but this is absolutely disgusting.
Now he’s claiming he doesn’t have authority to act. I’m sorry, but at this point I’ve seen more than enough in the way of arguments for the White House already having the necessary powers to secure the border. There has never been a point in Biden’s presidency where he did not have the authority to take the necessary action in securing the border.
So yes, I do not believe we should have a wide open border that is a literal free-for-all like we have at this exact moment. I agree, we should be devoting proper resources to screen, process, and take care of the people that want to come into the country. We should be doing this the right way.
Was going to post these. Really loving the Channel 5 content these days.
You don’t live anywhere near the border, do you?
Your anecdotes don’t mean shit when put up against statistics.
You believe in lies.
… spoken like someone who has never actually spent time around the border for any real period of time.
Just because the GOP is wrong in how they want to approach the issue, doesn’t mean the problems aren’t real.
I lived in New Mexico for most of my childhood, but thanks for the condescending comment.
What? 40 years ago? Because I find it pretty absurd that anyone who’s spent anytime there since even the Obama administration, would not understand, or have witnessed, the fact that there has been a consistent humanitarian crisis at the border for quite some time.
It ebbs and flows, sure, but it’s definitely been flowing pretty heavy for many years straight now.
Sure, it’s only a huge issue every couple of years around election time too. So convenient.
Right, like I said, you don’t live anywhere near the southwest. Because when the issue doesn’t get press coverage, it’s not happening in your version of reality.
It’s been year-round issue for quite some time, but it only gets national coverage around elections for obvious reasons.
If your reality does not conform to the desired lemmy narrative, it is rejected with down votes. Your politics won’t matter, it’s not the truth that’s desired.
Sounds weird, but on this topic and a few others, that’s how it works. It’s uncanny.
Sorry people are rejecting the message.
Not sure about any “Lemmy narrative”, more like certain boards have a dominant demographic or beliefs. Clearly, the group here hasn’t lived anywhere near the southern border, or at least not in the past decade.
I’m not even talking politics, I just mean the objective fact that there is, and has been, a humanitarian crisis there, and it will still be there after the election. But, it’ll go back to being out of sight, out of mind, for them, therefore it will cease to exist.
Politics has to play a part in how it’s addressed, but it shouldn’t be used to decide if it’s real, or not. I realize you know that, this is more for the benefit of anyone else who stumbles this far down the thread.
6 million illegals in 3 years. Its a problem. Hell a couple thousand caused problems for NYC. How do tiny border towns stand a chance?
Stand a chance to what?
Maintain infrastructure, pay for roads that can handle the traffic, pay for public schools that can handle the masses, pay for enough fire fighters and trucks, shit like that, and ramp up in the time frame of 3 years
That’s what taxes are for. Which undocumented immigrants pay.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-immigrants-taxes-rent-vaccine-requirements-983035929946
I’m having a hard time believing that undocumented immigrants pay all their taxes. You can say they pay some for sure, since there’s no way they don’t pay sales tax and such. Wouldn’t undocumented immigrants not have to pay the largest tax most folks have to pay, though, since they likely wouldn’t be paying income tax? I suppose if they once held a work visa or whatever, and had it expire, and they never relocated or changed jobs somehow, they’d still be paying their income tax, but I feel like that’d be rare, unless workplaces have no idea when your visa expires, and isn’t required to fire you when they find out.
I wish that article wasn’t about some random twitter post, and had more information in it. Maybe then they would have explained this. I would have assumed the tweet was BS the moment they said those folks don’t have to pay rent. Like… where did the person who believed that tweet think those fellas lived?
Their taxes are taken out of their paychecks like everyone else. They just don’t get refunds and they don’t get to apply for social security or medicare or, in most states, even medicaid. That means that they get very little back for what they give.
And if you have a problem with people not paying their fair share of taxes, start with Elon Musk, not some guy who’s picking fruit.
You’re assuming they receive paychecks at all, though. All undocumented immigrants I’ve known the situations of in my time (which is very few mind you, so it’s possible that this is not the norm) got paid in cash for the work they did, instead of getting a check. And I find it unlikely that the business or person paying them in cash under the table would have gone and paid their income tax for them and announced “These are the taxes the illegal immigrants I hire are paying!” and I even more doubt that the folks who received the funds paid their income tax on their own, since their employers were already playing on their fears of being discovered by the government to pay them lower wages than the market would normally accept (I want to say it was below the federal minimum at the time).
While I agree that we should totally be getting more taxes from rich folks. It’s not really relevant to the current discussion about the taxes paid by undocumented immigrants. That said, I’m not super concerned about undocumented immigrants paying income tax, since it’s really the fellas who employ them that are the problem. I was only mentioning it because I was curious as to how true what that article was saying really was, since it did not match my experiences.
They pay sales taxes, sure. But they don’t pay income or property taxes, not without an SSN. (Texas does not have an income tax, but has property taxes. The Feds have an income tax. Don’t be pedantic)
Sorry… so you’re blaming immigrants for the fact that Texas’ tax regulations are severely fucked up?
Maybe Texas shouldn’t cater so much of their tax code to rich people? Shouldn’t that be the issue?
How is having property tax but not income tax fucked up? How does it cater to rich people, any more than having income tax?
How exactly are you proposing that these people don’t pay property tax?
I would also wager that the amount of unreported tip income is just as large a problem as undocumented workers from a tax standpoint.
Undocumented immigrants pay income tax if they use someone else’s SSN or even without an SSN by using an ITIN
So you’re suggesting that illegal immigrants should steal identities to pay taxes?
What the fuck are you even talking about? Taxes pay for all of those things. They don’t just crumble to dust in the proximity of non-citizens.
They just want to have a lame excuse to be racist. That’s all this is.
You’re forgetting that the entire reason why so many people enter illegally* is because it’s next to impossible to enter legally unkess you have lots of connections in the US. Your average foreigner doesn’t stand a chance.
Don’t want 6 million people to enter illegally? Make it easier to enter legally. It’s that simple, yet people like you will never understand that. “Securing the border” only makes the problem worse. We should be opening it instead.
493,000 immigrant visas were given out in 2022. It’s extremely easy to enter, just too many too quick, and y’all have to wait your turn.
Eh, but how much of that is tourist visas. And where are they coming from.
I’m of the opinion that an open border with Mexico is an issue. Which just should not be controversial.
But I’m also married to someone who entered with a tourism visa. Legal immigration is nearly impossible in the US. There are very very few options for a person to enter the country and be on a path to a green card. Saying otherwise is purely ignorant.
Non immigrant visas are up to 6.8 million in 2022.
You should look at what the requirements look like for an immigrant Visa. The average person in South America does not have the ability to satisfy those requirements. But that doesn’t mean they are unable to become a valuable and contributing member of society.
I know people in the US that came here illegally and have gone on to become business owners. But only because they were able to meet and marry a US citizen.
There needs to be a legal path to entry. And we should be stopping the flood of people coming over the border at the same time.
We can only take so many, so quickly. What we’re doing now is completely unsustainable.
So why not select for the best and brightest?
Why do Democrats keep trying to appease Fascists?
Because this will undercut the only politically popular Republican position, which Republicans are currently wielding as a cudgel against the Biden Administration. In the process, Republicans are treating the people crossing the border worse and worse, increasing human suffering. If Biden can take control of the narrative of the border, there is a real possibility he can start to make things better and decrease human suffering.
If Biden can take control of the narrative of the border, there is a real possibility he can start to make things better and decrease human suffering.
There’s a possibility he can, but no possibility he will.
What other option does the Biden administration have when working with Republican border states, a split Congress, and a massive right-wing media megaphone of disinformation?
The great thing is that no matter how much he capitulates, Republicans will immediately scream that the borders are wide open.
He could be invading Mexico and shooting anything that moves and Republicans wouldn’t accept it as enough.
Partly true. So do nothing and accept that a majority of independents and even a sizable chunk of Democrats have concern over the (admittedly inflated) “border issue”?
No matter what Biden does, Republicans will ignore it and scream “open borders” anyway.
He gains nothing from this but the sheer joy Democrats experience when they throw vulnerable minorities under the bus.
Of course Republicans will. We write them off.
But we’re talking about swing voters and independents, and even some Democrats who have this as a top issue.
You lose those, you lose the election, and now life gets very bad for immigrants and minorities for years to come.
I mean, we’re currently seeing exactly how much Biden thinks of poor brown people.
Spoiler alert it’s not very much, it might even be a negative amount.
“Just a few hundreds more people in concentration camps and thousands more deported, and we can finally stop the Republicans from imprisoning and deporting immigrants and refugees!”
Democrats having a normal one about human rights, eh?
Edit: This may be a good place to remind everyone that the people we’re de facto targeting with these policies are people with indigenous roots. This can and should be interpreted through the lens of colonialism and our ongoing genocide against Native groups.
Edit 2: Oh boy I cannot believe I have to say this, but these people with indigenous roots are not limited to Mexico and Central America. Does anyone know anything about history here?? My God, I’d assume if one is going to comment that one would at least have the slightest idea what they’re talking about.
Edit 3: And to the people who think it’s some kinda “gotcha” to point out that I’m disengaging from people who are shit-deep in the anti-immigrant hysteria, you got me. Nearly half my family are immigrants, some of whom have been detained and/or deported by our racist border policy, and I live surrounded by batshit conservatives. So yes, this is a sensitive and personal issue to me. If I wanted to talk to people like that, I’d go to the gas station or bar. Lemmy is my opportunity to talk to people who at the bare minimum agree on certain fundamental ideals, an opportunity I don’t have much in real life. I will block and report you for name calling or other uncivilized attacks on my character.
What, in the purview of an election year (and risk of putting someone obviously orders-of-magnitude worse for such people), with the right-wing border propaganda resonating with many voters, with GOP border states that don’t actually want to work with Biden, and with a divided Congress, do you want Biden to do?
It’s one thing to throw peanuts from the peanut gallery, but another to look at the pragmatic reality and actual viable options versus consequences.
Treating people’s lives like political pawns in a campaign is NOT okay. Stop trying to normalize this shit.
Don’t ever speak to me again. Enabling this shit is a horrible thing to do to people. Let’s put you in a camp or send you into a violent situation and see how much you like it. “BuT iT’s ElEcTiOn YeAr” I don’t care
I say again since you’re obviously deflecting: It’s one thing to throw peanuts from the peanut gallery, but another to look at the pragmatic reality and actual viable options versus consequences.
You can live with your idealistic pyrrhic victory while you naively reject the reality of the political consequences and put someone far worse in power. But you do you, buddy.
I wish we could be idealistic, but the reality is that too many people are under informed, under educated, or otherwise trained to blame the country’s problems on minorities.
The idealists in this thread thinking “let’s say the right thing now, let the bad guys take over, then we’ll just have a little 'ol revolution” have their heads up their asses. They need to take a serious look at the middle east and their royals in golden palaces. That is the Republican end game.
People like them have no actual solution, they just like screaming that you’re wrong while they’re right.
It’s almost like dealing with a MAGAt.
To have a solution, you first must have a problem. This isn’t one. It’s only a problem for racists.
Frankly it makes me wonder if they are. Unfortunately we know it’s a common tactic for them to pretend they’re leftist and wedge-drive to sow apathy.
How many genocide did Trump support and enable again?
Oh I don’t know…
When you say you trust Putin’s word over the consensus of your own intelligence agencies, I’d argue enabling Russia’s genocide against Ukraine is one.
When you buddy up with the North Korean leader, you’re at least endorsing the famine of their people.
When you undermine peace deals with Iran, you undermine regional stability indirectly leading to further deaths both domestically and externally.
… Though let’s not forget that neither the UN nor ICJ has formally ruled on genocide charges.
And sure, let’s just pretend you’re not oversimplifying the situation in order to obviously wedge-drive all the while pretending Trump is some leader of global peace LOL.
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Removed, rule 3:
“Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (perjorative, perjorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (perjorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!”
Yeah I admit I chuckled at this.
I got major, “Don’t speak to me or my son ever again!” vibes lol.
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Removed, rule 3:
“Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (perjorative, perjorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (perjorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!”
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Most of these people are not indigenous through coming from way, farther down south, and Central America and moving their way up through Mexico because of how bad it is where they’re from.
If you are going to do it do it right and tell everyone the w whole story
Because the both answer to the same corporate overlords
The election year eternal immigrant caravan strikes again. I get the move politically, but it’s unfortunate the GOP is so much better at messaging and controlling public focus than the Dems. They have no answer but to play the game on Republican terms.
I don’t understand how the immigrant caravan magically disappears the Wednesday after election day. It’s like they start making their way to the border the January of an election year and then poof they are gone after the polls close.
Their greatest magic trick is that it will disappear for the entirety of a Republican administration. It’s Schrodinger’s caravan. It only exists if there is an election coming up, or a Democrat is in office.
it’s the same reason why the fears of rainbow fentanyl ramps up all october and dissappears on november 1, never to be invoked again until the next september.
It’s a quantum thing. Schrodinger’s caravan. It both exists and doesn’t exist. When election results are observed, spooky action at a distance causes the caravan to disappear.
Well, they’re coming here to cast illegal votes for Crooked Joe Biden /s
It’s all so sad yet they hammer it so hard that even my Trump hating friends believe this caravan bullshit.
That’s because the GOP take the easy road of appealing to people’s fear where as dems in theory try to appeal to logic and sensibility, it’s a fight they can never win.
It’s also a situation requiring nuance and informed critical thinking. We need immigrants to sustain our labor force, and we should be selective about removing red tape and monolithic obstacles for all people crossing the border while maintaining a reliable record of resources and threats to prevent the intake system from being overwhelmed. You can’t fit that on a bumper sticker.
You can, but nobody would be able to read it.
Playing the game on Republican terms is why they seem so much better at messaging than us. “Our opponents are right that this is a problem, but our solution is better” is not convincing. “Our opponents are lying about this, like they do with everything else. The situation is under control and we’re going to keep it that way by [insert legislation du jour]” is.
The situation is not under control, which is why it is gaining bipartisan support. Lying and saying they are lying just makes you the baddie… Like what?
Big part of it is because Republican rhetoric is so much more shocking and sensationalist by design. It attracts attention instantly. Dems do the boring, bread-and-butter politics that we need to run the country. Doesn’t attract as much attention.
Not that Republicans want to actually solve the issue because much like abortion it’s better to always be a looming scare tactic to use politically, but I kind of appreciate this move because the border is literally the only thing Republicans remotely have going into this election… And frankly, that isn’t much. This border crisis thing has gone on for years and no matter how much they try to use it against Dems, it ultimately doesn’t particularly impact voting outcomes all that much.
- They can’t talk about the economy.
- They can’t talk about covid.
- They can’t talk about Law & Order without being reminded of Trump’s 91 criminal charges.
… Border is all that is resonating a little with (frankly ignorant) voters.
dont forget abortion! they accidentally removed that from their list!
Yeah I was going to clarify… That completely backfired.
Like most issues: if we let Republicans completely have what they want, it is overwhelmingly unpopular. If we let Democrats have what they want, it is overwhelmingly popular, generally.
So why is the Biden administration doing what Republicans want here? Their name and our party’s name is going to be all over the overwhelmingly unpopular policies and Republicans are just going to keep saying the border’s a problem no matter what we do
Because no matter how one slices it, the “border issue” is the only thing that is resonating with voters.
The partisan split on the issue is broad, with 81 percent of Republicans, 68 percent of independents and 45 percent of Democrats saying conditions are worsening — 34 percent of Democrats said conditions are staying the same, while 21 percent said they’re improving.
It has overtaken Inflation as the #1 issue.
Because Democrats can’t actually do what needs to be done to solve the root problems of the border issue, the only option is to absorb the position of Republicans to take the wind out of their sails, and hopefully, be more responsible and discretionary in the process itself. Yeah Republicans will refuse to give Biden that victory, but Biden can still rebuttal in ads and on debate stages, “Oh yeah? I agreed to doing everything and more than what Republicans want and you’re still obstructing me!” (so in reality, like you said: nothing will change anyway because Republicans won’t actually endorse this and lose their last political bruiser, so what’s to lose?)
A link for that quote would be appreciated.
Because Democrats can’t actually do what needs to be done to solve the root problems of the border issue
They could be doing more to improve things and stop crap like this that makes it worse
absorb the position of Republicans to take the wind out of their sails
I have no earthly idea how you could think this will do that, it’s going to do the exact opposite by making all the people who aren’t really paying attention say “Gosh, I guess the Republicans must be right about this if the Democrats are trying to to pass their type of policies. I guess if we need a Republican approach to solve this totally real issue we should probably get it from a Republican government.”
Biden can still rebuttal in ads and on debate stages, "Oh yeah? I agreed to doing everything and more than what Republicans want
Republicans: “Biden’s lying or has Alzheimer’s, we wanted [xyz crap they make up on the spot] and Biden never offered it.”
Journalists: “Our fact checkers sai-”
Republicans: “Fake news”
Voters: “I like their confidence! And besides, when I think ‘tough’ on the border or crime or whatever, I know that isn’t Democrats, that’s the Republican’s thing! Maybe a Democrat will talk tough when they want to get reelected but they won’t ever really do it, and there is absolutely nothing that can happen to change my mind about this because I don’t pay attention to anything because the news depresses me.”
so what’s to lose?)
If this legislation does pass people will suffer and die
e; trying to be less of a sarcastic asshole
Sure.
They could be doing more to improve things and stop crap like this that makes it worse
This is conveniently ambiguous. What, specifically?
I have no earthly idea how you could think this will do that, it’s going to do the exact opposite by making all the people who aren’t really paying attention say “Gosh, I guess the Republicans must be right about this if the Democrats are trying to to pass their type of policies. I guess if we need a Republican approach to solve this totally real issue we should probably get it from a Republican government.”
Why would you think that and not, “Gosh, I think Democrats are actually doing a pretty good job and I really don’t want to vote for Trump, and since they seem to be trying to solve the border issue as well which was my chief concern, I really don’t have a reason to not vote for them now.”?
You have to remember that the independents / moderates / centrists in this country are pretty easily-swayed. They go with the currents. They get fixated on the national talking-points that tend to be governed by the onslaught of right-wing media propaganda that dominates the airwaves and social media.
If people are saying: “I like Democrats, but I am concerned about the border,” – what option do Democrats have BUT to at least LOOK like they’re cracking down on this issue (even if they know deep-down the premise is bullshit)?
- So you’re Biden.
- You can’t actually change the current events in any meaningful way with a split Congress and Republican border states unwilling to work with you.
- Yet you’re still being blamed publicly for not “handling” the border.
- Public polling is showing your team that this is the ONLY thing that is really sticking with swing voters.
- You know it’s all bullshit, but you can’t publicly state this because right-wing media propaganda is controlling the narrative.
- You know if you lose, someone proven far, far worse will get in and be orders-of-magnitude worse for such immigrants.
- So what do you do…?
- You Call the Bluff of Republicans. You say, “Okay let’s do it. But give me control to do it.”
- Republicans obviously won’t because they don’t actually want to do this; they just want to use it as a political tool to hammer Democrats with.
- Nothing changes, but now you can at least have a rebuttal come election season.
What is wrong with this, and what alternative do you offer, substantively, concretely?
If this legislation does pass people will suffer and die
It won’t. Trump already undermined it. And if it does, Democrats win the election and can reverse it instead of it just passing a year down the road and being in place for much, much longer with even more people dying.
Edit: Sorry I forgot to respond to this:
Voters: “I like their confidence! And besides, when I think ‘tough’ on the border or crime or whatever, I know that isn’t Democrats, that’s the Republican’s thing! Maybe a Democrat will talk tough when they want to get reelected but they won’t ever really do it, and there is absolutely nothing that can happen to change my mind about this because I don’t pay attention to anything because the news depresses me.”
Fairly, I do agree there are voters out there like this. The question is how many versus how many who go, “Well, at least I see Democrats are trying, and what difference is it when Trump said he’d build the wall but didn’t… So I think I’ll just go with the stable choice since the border was my #1 issue and that was my last concern for voting for Biden. Trump is otherwise just too risky…”
And I mean not to sound like a broken record, but what is the alternative plan – just ignore the fact that a majority of independents view this as a major concern and the border issue (again, manufactured as it is) is now the #1 issue with voters overall? Is that really a winning strategy?
Regardless, you and I aren’t privy to the massive amount of polling and focus groups these campaigns with millions of dollars have. Clearly, they have data that probably fills in the gaps that you and I can only otherwise speculate over.
I fucking hate the politics surrounding the border in this country.
If you’ve never seen it, watch an old musical called ‘The Music Man.’ A con man finds a small town and convinces the locals that their town is on the road to ruin because someone opened up a pool hall. The GOP can find any issue and blow it up. Heck, Obama’s suit was a matter of national controversy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_tan_suit_controversy
And Democratic party members who pretend Republicans’ bullshit is real and try to meet them in the middle with draconian legislation and dumbass statements like this just make the problem worse
Of course, you could donate to Dems like AOC and the Squad.
Yep, and people trying to primary the shitheads out of our party too
Seen how that went with Jessica Cisneros and Henry Cuellar.
The Democratic Party will support an anti-choice, pro-school shooting, anti-labor candidate if his challenger embraces the nightmare scenario of raising the national minimum wage.
“The minute your son leaves the house, does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee? It must be because of the Trans Menace!!”
I could see it in a modern take. With a capital T even!
And there’s a lot that would fit in great as is, like how that show was doing rap on stage before Hamilton
The fun thing is that this bill would give any president that power.
…. Oh.
But maybe that’s what they want. A president that can shut the border for political points would decimate industry. These tend to be industries that employ a lot of salt of the earth people, and the owners give a lot of money to Republicans. Republicans use this as a wedge issue and have spent years whipping their base into a frenzy. Giving them the authority to hurt themselves.A stupid Republican president would shut down the border and harm industry. A smart Republican president would not fall into that trap, but be paralyzed until a new talking point arises.
The base would support populist moves like shutting the border. Donors wouldn’t. Farmers with rotting crops would not.Shrewd.
It’s shrewd for a totally different reason. Trump told them not to pass this bill, Johnson says it’s DOA in the Republican House. So now Trump and the Republican House are arguing against closing the border.
If any Republican says Biden is for open borders he can just say “I had a bipartisan deal for closing the border and Trump and the Republicans killed it.”
Yup. I don’t think Biden wants to shut down the border, but there were many things in that deal that would be good. Additional staff to process asylum requests to speed that up is good for everyone. There’s some things in there that’s not so good, but overall it would improve things and no one could say he didn’t anything about the borderrrrr.
But it looks like Trump has sabotaged the thing. So now he can say “yeah I’d close the border but the republican congress won’t pass the bill because Trump cares more about himself than doing something about this problem.”
I think a lot of the border stuff is overblown, there’s issues, but it’s not the crisis they make it out to be. But now Biden has a way to neuter that rhetoric.
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If any Republican says Biden is for open borders he can just say “I had a bipartisan deal for closing the border and Trump and the Republicans killed it.”
And if Republicans operated with logic and fairness, that would work.
Unfortunately, they don’t. Trump could just claim the entire thing was deepfaked and his little cult would dutifully believe it without even knowing what a deep fake was.
They will accept literally any excuse, no matter how bad, to hold on to the opinions they want to have.
He was never going to win the type of voter who would believe Trump no matter what. But almost 50% of Americans consider themselves independent. There is a cohort who wants action taken on the border and also abortion rights and this swings them from 50/50 to Biden. Or whatever the specifics are, this is popular with some number of independent voters who might otherwise vote for Trump.
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He’s not trying to win the people who will ignore the facts and blame him no matter what. The point is that Republicans ignore him and keep yelling about the border crisis, and he gets to say he had a border deal and Trump killed it. Independents/swing voters get to judge who really can or will ‘fix the border crisis’.
You can’t just assume Republicans won’t lose votes for killing a deal to fix a thing they say is a problem. The point is that the Republican candidate WILL lose votes from this. Just a matter of how many.
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It’s not 5D chess it’s literally the most basic politics. The border is a political weakness for him, now he can blame the other guy.
Say to who? Nobody cares.
Swing voters who care about border politics. If you refuse to believe those two things exist I can’t help you.
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You were right!
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Any president already has the power to shut the border.
When Gov. Abbott
shutslowed down the border for a couple days for inspections, it was an economic disaster. No doubt that they want to make Biden do it this time and then blame him for the consequences.It also seems that when Democratic presidents wield privilege to take Executive action, they are “dictators”, but when Republican presidents wield privilege to take Executive action, they are “heroes”.
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Fucking hell, here’s to hoping Congressional Republicans are too self defeating to pass this fucking trash, the fact that Democratic negotiators thought this was a good idea - like, right after the fucking Trump administration, thought “yeah, let’s give the executive branch more power to be assholes to immigrants” - is just mind boggling
Then again, it feels pretty similar to Obama trying to work with Republicans to gut social security a few years after 2008, so maybe I should stop being surprised by these things
“We won’t negotiate with terrorists and fascists.”
Immediately negotiates with terrorists and fascists
You mention Obama. I remember in 2008 being so enthused that I volunteered for his campaign and poured my heart out, only to get … what we got. I don’t see this pattern ever changing. We really need to find a way out of this two-party system. I’m not sure what that way is, but we so desperately need it.
Vote for alternative parties and push for Ranked Choice Voting.
So you disagree with the narrative that voting third party is a vote for Republicans?
And I’m not sure what else to do to push for ranked choice voting besides talking about it. I’m very involved locally, but that doesn’t seem to help the national political hellscape.
So you disagree with the narrative that voting third party is a vote for Republicans?
You should vote for the best candidate on the ballot. Otherwise, the system doesn’t work.
You also should do the right thing, even if other people refuse.
Sounds like I’m on the right track 👍
exactly right. we have no choices as its ‘fascist vs not faschist’’ there are no options there unless youre a terribly human being
ranked choice is all we have, and ill be long dead before that hits the national scene
Any ideas of what we can do in the meantime to move toward a better system? Even though you’re right that we’ll both probably be dead before there’s any real change, what can we do right now to help?
I’ve tried educating people, provided information about evading deportation, and a lot on a personal level, but there’s got to be some way to move things in a way that it can potentially stop this raging hate boner people have for Latin American immigrants.
i wish. im centered in a redneck capital and it blows chunks. most of the people around here are completely ignorant and vote R because they always have, their parents did and its the ‘right thing’… and then they promptly turn their brains off.
i have taken to new terminology, and it seems to at least cause people pause… ive been using the term ‘humans’ when conversing with moron conservatives.
it feels like fauxnews and other propoganda is designed to de-humanize…well… everyone. So im working to re-inject it into the argument.
i had one collage educated woman tell me jesus would not have fed people who didnt have jobs. wut.
my well of hope is running dry. patience ran out years ago when obama not only did nothing, but worked to prevent Bernie
obama can eat a bag of dicks. what fucking useless conservative.
Yeah I live in a redneck hellhole as well, and I look like a redneck so people disclose to me their most atrocious opinions. I’ve tried similar things to what you’re describing, and I guess that’s the best thing we can do. Some people are totally lost, but other have just been heavily propagandized to the point that they don’t reflect at all on the opinions they have.
Primary conservative Democrats and run candidates that support RCV. This is a generation long fight. Look at how the GOP has shifted over the past 40-50 years. This was from a long sustained project of focusing on local/state elections, vigorously primarying from the right, and capturing courts. We have to be more dedicated than they were, and they were dedicated as fuck. That’s how we get actual electoral power.
The hard part is we also have to avoid throwing marginalized groups under the bus in exchange for the smallest amount of perceived political favor. Looks to me like Democrats are failing epically at that.
There are certain things that are just baseline unacceptable, no matter how much the public may clamor for them. This is one of those things.
Gee, I can’t imagine who else could abuse that newfound power for some other arbitrarily heinous reasons.
Do I agree? I don’t think so. But I must admit this is a smart move politically. It calls their bluff.
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Simple, the next time Republicans screech about the border, Biden can point out he wanted to do exactly what they said, but they still refused – and highlight that Republicans are operating in bad faith.
Don’t think about how Democrat voters or Republican voters will react – their votes are forgone conclusions – think about independents and moderates. This exposes Republicans to that group as not actually caring.
By calling for a bad bill?
Unironically, yes. He’s telling Republicans that he’ll do what they want, but they still refuse
Jfc can we get someone up for election who’s not a raging fascist?
Fuck this country, and fuck everyone who supports this. Every. One. No matter how much you screech “iLlEgAl” at our prospective immigrants and refugees from the comfort of your home. Fuck you personally if you’re someone who does that and who thinks this is a good move by our president.
Vote blue no matter who!
Does this mean if Trump gets elected he’ll have even more legal power?
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Can someone explain to me why the border shouldn’t be closed except to legal travel?
Because it sounds to me like illegal travel SHOULD be stopped. People immigrating illegally are working for super low wages, increasing supply of labor and therefore lowering demand. It’s bad for workers. I know people say “Americans won’t do those jobs” but that’s because they are paying nothing since they can get highly desperate exploitable people. Labor should be on the side of restricted immigration.
Note I’m not talking about asylum, but the USA shouldn’t be the only place people go for asylum. It’s my impression that most immigrants are economic anyways.
The border is already closed to illegal travel, that’s why such travel is illegal.
The border is not impenetrable - it is over a thousand miles of mostly difficult terrain - and enforcing entry requirements is difficult for those reasons.
The single most effective way to reduce illegal immigration is to punish businesses for employing illegal immigrants. As with everything else, as long as a market exists then there will be an economic incentive to break the law. This is true for drugs, prostitution, Russian oil, etc.
The federal government essentially enables the employment of migrants because many industries, particularly food harvesting and processing, could not operate without this labor. The consequence of the choice to not punish these companies is more migrants seeking the same economic opportunity.
Fix the problem at that end and illegal border crossings will drop dramatically.
I agree with everything you said and that still begs the question: What does “close the border” even mean then in this context? It’s just a pointless platitude.
In a nutshell they’ve let themselves become a wedge issue because they’re dumb and easily manipulated
There is no good reason except to create an underclass that provdes cheap labor. You know, like in 1860.
Where are the people who say they’re not the same party now?
Collusion doesn’t make them the same party. Much worse in fact.
Channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan has been doing some great pieces lately including a couple good ones on the border recently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dQ4-VNaG3s - Migrant Detention Camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buZWVQuqx0o - Arizona Border Crisis
E: Is the amount of curation in this thread off the charts or is it just me?
