• @ydieb@lemm.ee
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    687 months ago

    What I hate with this is that is defines that the army itself is good or bad. But in reality it is what it is used for. If its actually used for defence, then it’s very honorable. When it’s used as a tool to exploit resources to the rich, (aka generally being the aggressor), it’s not.

              • @Urist
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                27 months ago

                Many would rate the USSR as an imperial core country, while I guess you and I maybe won’t. Stop assuming privilege of those you talk to and demean them with willful ignorance. There is always something more that may be learned about an issue and people should not be vilified if their attempts to learn more are genuine (and I think you can not determine it was not from this interaction, comrade).

                  • @Urist
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                    27 months ago

                    I think your response was unwarranted. Hardly makes me a “concern troll” (had to look it up because I’ve never seen the term before). I am obviously an alt for calling you out though. Made this account 5 months ago and interacted with myself for the first time in this post just because you are so fucking special.

                    Calling people pos is also uncool, even if they invade other people’s safe spaces. Their comments on the post you linked didn’t even seem aimed to be hurtful or invalidate anyone else’s experience, though ill placed for sure.

          • @Urist
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            37 months ago

            Can you explain why some of the nordic countries, i.e. Norway, Sweden, Denmark are part of the imperial core while Finland, Iceland, Greenland are not? I can put color on a white map too, doesn’t mean it portrays a real issue adequately. Also wtf, why is Portugal not part of the imperial core?

            • Doubledee [comrade/them]
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              37 months ago

              The map is a reference to the one you see whenever just about any international issue comes up and the same crew are all in agreement, I’m not actually positive what specific issue this map was taken from.

              The website has a more serious explainer (with a couple versions of the map) but I’m with you, Iceland and Portugal and Finland are core countries probably. The real answer is that it’s fluid and historically contingent, not set in stone. It’s a question of how your economy develops and how it relates to ‘peripheral’ countries that are primarily extracted from, not a literal list pulled off an emoji.

              • @Urist
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                7 months ago

                I looked through that article and found it somewhat problematic. Especially the description of core countries as:

                They have strong state institutions, a powerful military and powerful global political alliances.

                For example, Iceland does not even have a military, but can still be part of capitalist neo-colonialism as part of the “imperial core”. Even so, one should also keep in mind that Iceland historically had been under Denmark’s dominion and it is wrong to say that it has been a primary benefactor of classic colonialism leading to the rise of western powers in modern history. On the other hand, Portugal has been a strong colonial power historically. Still, the development index of Iceland is way higher and I would argue there are lots of factors in play as to why, and one cannot say that there is a direct equivalence between development index and imperialism. Both Norway, Iceland and Finland gained independence in the 20th century, never had proper colonies and are part of the economic elite. Norway is still in large an economy based around export of natural resources, which is atypical for being an imperial core member. I often feel that many facts like these are overlooked in discussions of imperial cores in favor of simplistic ideas such as equivocating HDI and imperialism. Can we not have better discussions around the mechanics of modern imperialism than throwing around a map and calling out people for not being intimate with the idea of an imperial core, an idea whose simplicity makes itself highly flawed?

                • Doubledee [comrade/them]
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                  47 months ago

                  I agree that I gave a simplistic answer, you can read literal books about it. But Iceland, as an example, does actually have a history of being closely tied to the military of the US and the UK voluntarily, I think Greenland is actually a better candidate for peripheral than Iceland. And realistically it’s going to be more of a spectrum than a binary, you’re usually going to fall somewhere in the middle rather than being on the extreme end like the US and Israel.

                  And even then you might have internal dynamics that complicate it. Parts of the US (Appalachia, “Indian Country”) are clearly peripheral within the US economy and subject to exploitation that other areas are not. So agreed, it’s complicated.

                  Dialectics as a method warns us against assumptions that “the state of things” is static, these things are always changing. But I think there’s value in the basic observation that world economic systems work in tension, where opposed interests are not equally met in a mutually beneficial exchange a la neoliberal dogma. Even if you have to acknowledge that it is much more complicated than “it’s the same map every time” I think the concept is useful.

                  What would you say is a better way of talking about this sort of thing?

                  • @Urist
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                    37 months ago

                    I think what bugs me (generally, not you so much specifically) is what I perceive to be so many ideas conflated into one. One can talk about a lot of different issues under the “imperial core” label, but I think one should be careful about considering who one talks about as imperial core according in context of the issue in question, since the imperial core is not a homogeneous group in a lot of matters, much like any other collection of countries. In particular, I think it is important to allow for some more varied terms of imperial core, else risking falling into a false dichotomy. I see that it might look pretty similar from a global south perspective, but I believe it is helpful to be more nuanced in the approach about who are imperial core to better analyze and understand the mechanics of the imperialism in play.

            • Doubledee [comrade/them]
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              127 months ago

              Unironically yes. The development in the imperial core came at the expense of the rest of the world, that’s what the term is referring to, the part of the world economy that is accumulating through imperialism the wealth and resources of the whole planet.

              • NoIWontPickaName
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                -17 months ago

                Nah, most people i disagree with are just people I disagree with.

                The people who want to try and tell me what to do like they have authority to do so are Tankies.

                Y’know that term for authoritarians who want to force people to do things regardless of what the ordinary person wants to do.

                So… You, you tankie McTankerson.

              • NoIWontPickaName
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                -27 months ago

                Also I have no problems with jews or communists.

                Only authoritarians like the rest of that list except shill.

                • @CohortCzort@lemmygrad.ml
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                  7 months ago

                  Because you get to a communist society with thoughts and prayers…

                  This is you… “Oh no dont infiltrate and dismantle our preferred system of production with the forces of reaction… or ill have to write a strongly worded letter as I wouldn’t want tobe authoritarian.”

    • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
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      317 months ago

      Hey, im not trying to be rude or anything I just wanna quickly say that honor is a fiction typically used by the rich and powerful to manipulate the young and well-meaning into becoming fucked up stormtroopers for capital.

      • @Urist
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        37 months ago

        In modern context, sure. In a wider anthropological historic context, no. My understanding of honor as a social concept, though I do not have proper academic sources to back this, is that it works in lieu of a central force of government enforcing laws and common rule. I.e. non centralized governance such as that of say the Norse people of old, had very strong etiquette of honor, the lack of which implied social status that would be worse to the one living than them dying. That meant weird things like a story of a man who robbed a house, realized they were doing something dishonorable (read illegal), went back and challenged the man who owned the house, killed them in combat and then stole their stuff. Just like laws it imposes rules on people, in this weird case murder in combat is better than theft, but still a rule. I would argue this notion of honor has existed across different societies for a long time, due to general absence of centralized governance, and has in modern times, relatively speaking on an anthropological timeline, been adopted and exploited by centralized powers to further control the populace, in the very real way you talk about.

    • @Coasting0942@reddthat.com
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      317 months ago

      Even simpler than that. People trying to slot sex work/army/any job into “good/bad” columns aren’t worth your attention.

      Except for health insurance CEOs, those definitely bad.

      • essell
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        147 months ago

        The only thing that can stop a bad health insurance CEO is a good health insurance CEO.

      • cannache
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        27 months ago

        But war means more than sacrificing your body or personal reputation. War is giving up your whole personal conscience to fight for what the group believes is the most direct action in response to an event

    • @Bassword@hexbear.net
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      297 months ago

      Yeah peaceful militaries like Korea’s or China’s or Cuba’s are ok. Anyone joining the US military though if just in it for the war crimes.

      • @Habahnow@sh.itjust.works
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        77 months ago

        I feel your answer lacks any sort of nuance. People join the military for financial reasons as well. Broke as fuck and need somewhere to stay, get food and possibly get an education or career? Military. Almost doesn’t matter your background, you can probably get in and stay as much as you like. The US system makes the military a good back up option for the poor. I don’t like how the US uses our military, but i also understand that those in there aren’t necessarily happy with their options either. If there existed a alternative system like the military (work, pay, food, housing, education, career), people would probably join that over risking dying or having to kill people.

        • @Urist
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          37 months ago

          That is the issue with hating the troops proles doing the fighting. Sometimes they might commit war crimes, but usually there is someone of a higher social strata coercing them into the role, which although doesn’t relieve them of responsibility, is important context.

      • @Azzu@lemm.ee
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        -17 months ago

        I wouldn’t call North Korea firing missiles over other sovereign countries very peaceful. As well as China doing troop exercises that obviously prepare for the invasion of Taiwan. I’m sure there are more examples.

        • @Bassword@hexbear.net
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          377 months ago

          The DPRK had literally never been to war outside its territory; it’s not a dove but at least it hasn’t invaded multiple sovereign countries like its southern cousin.

          China does troop exercises like every single other country in the world.

          • @Azzu@lemm.ee
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            -37 months ago

            I mean as long as you consider South Korea part of their territory, sure. There was though the Korean War, where North Korea invaded South Korea. Of course it’s not on the same level as South Korea, but I would imagine that’s more because they literally can’t, they have no resources for it, not because they’re amazingly peaceful people.

            • Doubledee [comrade/them]
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              177 months ago

              The north didn’t invade the south though, no Koreans agreed that the US supported parallel was a permanent division of the country, both North and South fully intended to create a united Korea. Tens of thousands of Koreans were already dead from purges and suppression of uprisings in the south when the operation started. It was literally an ongoing civil war that had momentarily frozen.

              • @Azzu@lemm.ee
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                -17 months ago

                I’m not sure on what information you base this claim, but as far as I know the 38th parallel was agreed upon because both the udssr and the US wanted total occupation of Korea for themselves, but they both wanted to potentially avoid an armed conflict so tried a compromise.

                Then the north korean part, supported by China and unofficially by the soviet union, invaded the south to establish total control.

                • Sinister [none/use name, comrade/them]B
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                  7 months ago

                  No North Korea claims descend from the People’s Republic of Korea and like in Germany, the US and UDSSR agreed upon an eventual neutral zone. The North invaded the South after the US sponsored regime began killing socialist uprisings, essentially protecting its citizens.

        • booty [he/him]
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          237 months ago

          Are you talking about that time they launched a missile over the least populated possible part of Japan as part of a test? What are they supposed to do, just not advance their tech? They’re surrounded, they’ve got to launch them over somebody and they did it the safest way they could.

          • @Azzu@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            No, obviously perfectly fine. They are literally doing exercises for a potential invasion to Taiwan though, which is a difference.

            • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
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              7 months ago

              You can’t invade your own territory. By Chinese and Taiwanese law, internationally recognized by the UN (and even the US, as asserted by Blinken the last time he was in China to pretend to be sorry), Taiwan is Chinese territory.

    • mar_k [he/him]
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      7 months ago

      Lol can’t think of a single western country that’s had an “honorable” war post 1945. The US army is unequivocally bad

      • @Urist
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        27 months ago

        In general I think you are right, but I was also under the impression that the NATO intervention in Bosnia helped prevent ethnic cleansing, which if true is a honorable thing.

    • @telllos@lemmy.world
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      137 months ago

      I mean, even for defence. Your settling, an argument, the rich and powerful people above you are having. You’re settling it with your life.

      • cannache
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        17 months ago

        If you think your side is right and you’re ready to die fighting then who is anyone else to say that you, the tool, is wrong?

    • uphillbothways
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      7 months ago

      See, that’s an easy question to answer: Did you, or whoever, join the military while the US, or your country, was being attacked?

      • @FireRetardant@lemmy.world
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        147 months ago

        If you wait til you are attacked, you may not be trained or ready enough to actually defend your country from the attack. You can still join in times of peace with intentions of defense for the future, helping with disaster relief, and providing international aid.