- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
Congress has approved legislation that would prevent any president from withdrawing the United States from NATO without approval from the Senate or an Act of Congress. The measure, spearheaded by Sens. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) and Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), was included in the annual National Defense Authorization Act, which passed out of the House on Thursday and is expected to be signed by President Biden.
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Preparing for the worst (or the return of the Worst)
Exactly my thought. This looks like the Biden admin taking steps against the return of Trump. The conventional wisdom unfortunately suggests Trump will return, but this is the first official thing I’ve seen that suggests perhaps official staffers think the same.
I think the return of Trump is the end of the USA as we know it, but also the Democratic establishment has been late to the party to avoid it, and the left remains far more fragmented than the right.
I don’t think it suggests they believe he will return, but that it’s a serious enough possibility they should do something to prevent a seriously bad outcome. With a 25% chance of a Trump win, this kind of prevention is worth doing… and it’s unfortunately probably above that.
The Biden Admin had nothing to do with this. Laws are made by Congress.
And Congress is influenced by many factors, not the least of which being the administration of any sitting president.
No no you’re right this time will be much worse somehow
A second term trump? Of course it would be worse. A second term trump facing like a hundred different felony charges? Yes, definitely much worse.
Serious question, if the orange dictator returns to power does this actually…you know…stop him in anyway? What happens if he just does it anyway? It’s not like there will be any consequences…
You’re not wrong.
What would he exactly do? This is basically saying he won’t have the ability to order it on his own.
He won’t be able to withdraw from the treaty itself.
He’ll be able to publicly say he won’t defend NATO allies, he’ll be able to withdraw troops, withdraw diplomats, withdraw ambassadors, no longer have US personell attend meetings, refuse to continue funding NATO HQ, sabotage command and control, undermine leadership, and on and on, until the NATO treaty is barely worth the paper it’s written on, leaving European NATO wholly unprepared for a potential invasion. It’s too late to prepare for that if they start right now.
Russia might then take a gamble. A lot of people thought they wouldn’t take that gamble in 2014. People thought they wouldn’t take that gamble in 2022. People think they won’t take that gamble if Trump gets re-elected.
Or Russia doesn’t take that gamble. They simply engage in provocations. Military exercises near the border. Bomber runs which are aborted at the last moment. Some more extravagent extra-territorial assassinations. The chance of a miscalculation skyrockets, the chance of accidentally starting a war increases significantly.
I suppose he could order the US military to physically leave NATO bases, and physically eject NATO allied personnel from American bases.
It would be up to officers to recognized that as an illegal order and deify it.
I, for one, hope they don’t deify illegal orders.
A certain portion of the population seems to already deify anything Trump says.
IP?
They’ll just ignore him like they did most of the time.
Gee, I wonder if they had someone in mind when they wrote it /s
Might as well call it the T.R.U.M.P. bill.
And if Trump wants, he asks his stacked SCOTUS to declare it unconstitutional, and withdraws from NATO. Zzz
Yeah, this is a hurdle, but that’s all. Every law ever made can be unmade.
This bill violates the president’s first amendment right to free speech because forcing him to do it is tantamount to forcing him to say he’s okay with doing it.
This deterrent effect doesn’t come just from the NATO treaty … Deterrence comes from the Kremlin’s conviction that Americans really believe in collective defense, that the U.S. military really is prepared for collective defense, and that the U.S. president really is committed to act if collective security is challenged. Trump could end that conviction with a single speech, a single comment, even a single Truth Social post, and it won’t matter if Congress, the media, and the Republican Party are still arguing about the legality of withdrawing from NATO. Once the commander in chief says “I will not come to an ally’s aid if attacked,” why would anyone fear NATO, regardless of what obligations still exist on paper? … When I asked several people with deep links to NATO to imagine what would happen to Europe, to Ukraine, and even to Taiwan and South Korea if Trump declared his refusal to observe Article 5, all of them agreed that faith in collective defense could evaporate quickly. Alexander Vershbow, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO and a former deputy secretary-general of NATO, pointed out that Trump could pull the American ambassador from his post, prevent diplomats from attending meetings, or stop contributing to the cost of the Brussels headquarters, all before Congress was able to block him: “He wouldn’t be in any way legally constrained from doing that.” Closing American bases in Europe and transferring thousands of soldiers would take longer, of course, but all of the political bodies in the alliance would nevertheless have to change the way they operate overnight. James Goldgeier, an international-relations professor at American University and the author of several books on NATO, thinks the result would be chaotic. “It’s not like you can say, ‘Okay, now we have another plan for how to deal with this,’ ” he told me. There is no alternative leadership available, no alternative source of command-and-control systems, no alternative space weapons, not even an alternative supply of ammunition. Europe would immediately be exposed to a possible Russian attack for which it is not prepared, and for which it would not be prepared for many years.
I’m sure he was promised the title of “Lord Trump” by Emperor Putin
e to an ally’s aid if attacked,” why would anyone fear NATO, regardless of what obligations still exist on paper? … When I asked several people with deep links to NATO to imagine what would happen
So should the president be commander-in-chief or not? Normally liberals aren’t quite so mask-off and in favor of a military junta, but please, tell me how you square this circle.
Normally liberals aren’t quite so mask-off … please, tell me how you square this circle.
Sorry, not American, so I found your question confusing.
From the article above:
The measure, spearheaded by Sens. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) and Marco Rubio (R-Fla.),
Both parties seem to be in favour of limiting the power of the president to withdraw from NATO.
This doesn’t seem to be a simple partisan issue, as this legislation has bipartisan support.
The R’s support the measure because it makes electing the Orange Julias more palatable to wish wash
If you are viewing actions of the legislature strictly through a partisan lens, you dont’ have enough background to approach the original concern at all.
The original idea of the US government is three branches of government. If one branch of government “bipartisananly” wants to limit another branch of government, that should be cause for alarm and ideally the congressmen involved should be censured and possibly impeached. If you want to change the powers of the president, then it’s time to rewrite the constitution, not do whatever the fuck this is.
No, you are missing the entire point of three branches of government. They are there as a check and balance of power to the others. They are literally supposed to stop the other branches from overstepping.
It’s been established that the president is in charge of foreign treaties. So it is congress that is overstepping here.
Article II section 2 of the constitution requires approval from the senate to ratify treaties, which is then up to the president to ratify and implement. Both branches of the government are supposed to work together to establish foreign policies, this is part of the check and balances. If you have sources interpreting article II section 2 differently I’d be curious to see.
NATO is a mutual defense treaty that is in practice enforced by US armed forces. If you accept that the President is Commander-in-chief of the armed forces, if He chooses not to respect the terms of the treaty by not deploying the armed forces, then in what way does congress get a say without grossly violating the separation of powers?
Do you disapprove of the idea that SCOTUS can decide constitutionality? It’s not in the constitution, so when they first did it, it was a “limit” on another branch of government.
This is such a bad faith argument I almost fell for it. You’re either being willfully ignorant or a troll.
Look if you are restructuring your entire government because orange-man bad, perhaps it’s time to question the initial foundation of that government.
Sounds like you hate america, filthy liberal.
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Only a fascist trying to be a dictator would actually do this.
Sounds like rather than patchwork mini laws like this, they need to revamp the system to ensure no single person can take such drastic overreaching action.
Lets not forget that a president/prime minister isn’t the singular person in charge, they’re merely the figurehead/frontman of an entire government of elected people, as well add representing their party, and of course ultimately are a civil servant working at the pleasure of the people.
95% of the things the president does should go through proper democratic channels within the government and not simply rubber stamped by a single person, that path is the path towards dictatorship.
The few exceptions are rare things that can’t be put to a vote or through regular channels, like launching nukes, etc. But these are exceptions only.
There should never have been a situation where it was possible for a president to personally decide to change the future of the entire nation and indeed world, in such a dramatic and drastic way, without any checks and balances to ensure that it is the will of the people, out even the will of anyone else in government.
Which is why it sounds to me like they need some significant reform, rather than just making this one little change :-(
Yes, past presidents have gradually expanded the power of the position beyond any reasonableness over time.
Which is why it sounds to me like they need some significant reform
Unfortunately the US founder had the same idea as you about reform. IE no one person or small group should be able to do so.
Now over decades Heck centuries. Power has migrated to the president. As groups continued to objects to slow change. So took the easy answer of trusting one elected member.
But any change to significantly limit power. Would need the constitution to be reworked to limit such power. Would require a huge approval. 66% of every state I think.
The very fact that Congress has to worry about such things. Is clear evidence such agreement is not and may never be possible.
fuck we might succeed and get trump back, quick put up the child safeties!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Tim Kaine (D-Va.) and Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), was included in the annual National Defense Authorization Act, which passed out of the House on Thursday and is expected to be signed by President Biden.
The provision underscores Congress’s commitment to the NATO alliance that was a target of former President Trump’s ire during his term in office.
“NATO has held strong in response to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin’s war in Ukraine and rising challenges around the world,” Kaine said in a statement.
Biden has invested deeply in the NATO alliance during his term, committing more troops and military resources to Europe as a show of force against Putin’s war.
He has also overseen the expansion of the alliance with the inclusion of Finland and ongoing efforts to secure Sweden’s full accession.
The former president’s advocates say his tough talk and criticisms of the alliance served to inspire member-states to fulfill their obligations to reach 2 percent of defense spending, lightening the burden on the U.S.
The original article contains 343 words, the summary contains 164 words. Saved 52%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
NATO and OTAN are in the snippet. Is OTAN the French way to say NATO?
Yes; Organisation du traité de l’Atlantique nord
It’s also OTAN in Spanish and Portuguese
Wow I’ve always just thought it just backwards as a design feature. I wore a NATO / OTAN patch for a year 😂
Damn, usually ml is at least SLIGHTLY better than hexbear, but not when it comes to anything that might be bad for Russia I see
It’s very scary to think that a single person could have that much power.
It would be nice if NATO stops existing, I know I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one.
empire is non negotiable
That’s nice. Anyway, death to NATO
So who do you like?
the warsaw pact
Oh, I remember you. With the apparently non-ironic Communist East Germany avatar. You never did respond to my previous comment. I’ll copy paste the relevant bits again to refresh your memory:
I wrote:
The East German government opposed Apartheid. We now know that behind the scenes IMES, run by the East German deputy foreign minister and Stasi employees, sold dozens of shipments of weapons to Apartheid South Africa. Source: Van Vuuren, H. (2018). Apartheid guns and money: A Tale of Profit. Weidenfeld & Nicolson.
You called this a fairy tale. But then never responded when I posted this:
Ie. also the USSR and Communist China.
And this:
To not bore you, I’ll add this too:
And another bonus:
TLDR
- the DDR (and other communist countries) covertly sold weapons to Apartheid South Africa, Iran, the CIA, and third world regimes.
- profited off a war which cost something like 2 million lives, many of them civilians
- the communist regime sold political prisoners for profit and profited off often deadly human experimentation
- the profits were partly used to fund the luxury lifestyle of the nomenklatura, the communist elite.
Now do West Germany. I’ll wait.
I like the end of the Global North’s neocolonialism.
But what do you favor as a system?
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I’m not a libertarian or paleoconservative, I’m a communist.
UN charter
Proletarian democracy.
Inshallah. Eventually they will pay for what they did to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and other countries they bombed or looted
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Doing something completely and plainly undemocratic to preserve “democracy” certified classic. I’m sure there’s still some way to get out still, but, NATO forever no looking back I guess. The completely real and not totally contrived “north atlantic community” me and my closest friends across half the world.
How is this undemocratic? It was voted on and passed by Congress. Congress is made up of elected representatives by the citizens of the US.
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Are you confusing what is democratic with what is supporting democracy? Democracy is just a system of government. A democratic country can nuke another democratic country and still be democratic. We could say they are not supporting democracy in other countries, but that’s not what anyone is talking about here.
Democracy is a popular vote for everything with no voter suppression. Not electing chumps to get bribed. Want to end war? End poverty? Let the people vote. Socialism here we come.
There are many forms of democracy. Representative democracy is one and you seem to like direct democracy. I know that I don’t have time for direct democracy… there is just too much going on. But there might be a middle ground.
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NATO is the real thousand year Reich
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