TechConnectify@mas.to - Oh my gosh I just figured it out.

Okay, all you open source evangelist people: your knee-jerk reaction to come at people who are talking about a problem with whatever commercial software they use and suggest Your Favorite Alternatives™ is exactly like saying “why don’t you just buy a house?” to someone complaining about their landlord.

TechConnectify@mas.to - Actually, to borrow from @DoubleA, it’s worse than that.

It’s like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home.

You have to be at peace with the fact that some people just want to exist and not worry about so many things. And they still have a right to complain about their situation.

Link to thread: https://mas.to/@TechConnectify/111539959265152243

  • rumschlumpel
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    3 months ago

    Damn, I didn’t know people couldn’t financially afford installing Linux.

    • brie
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      763 months ago

      “Open source is free if you don’t value your time.” (forgot who that quote is from)

      Sometimes the time investment is small, but especially for complex software, the friction of switching from one imperfect (proprietary) software to another imperfect (open) software makes it not really make much sense unless the issue is severe (house is half destroyed).

      • @conditional_soup@lemm.ee
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        453 months ago

        This is basically what he was saying. Open source tends to be a much less plug-and-play out-of-the-box experience, and usually requires at least some IT know-how for it to not be an infuriating experience. A lot of FOSS advocates compensate for that by kind of being that over explaining bro meme and get kinda pushy about getting people over the technical barriers because they want FOSS to be widely adopted and be a real alternative, and for good reasons. But most people don’t have the time or patience to stumblefuck their way through IT issues, they just want the shit to work.

        It’s a fair criticism, accessibility is a big problem in FOSS. We’ve come a long way, but there’s still a long way to go.

        • @helenslunch@feddit.nl
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          233 months ago

          This is basically what he was saying.

          If that’s what he was trying to say, he’s doing a bad job.

          The only thing you need to buy a house is money. You don’t need literally any money to use FOSS.

          • @conditional_soup@lemm.ee
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            173 months ago

            Well, it’s mastodon. You’ve got a little over 400 characters to say what you’re going to say in the most shocking, attention-getting way possible. Yes, it’s not a perfect analogy, but no metaphor is perfect or else it wouldn’t really be a metaphor, would it?

            Anyway, it’s a time and convenience cost that becomes extremely significant as your IT proficiency decreases, and you’ve got another think coming if you think those costs don’t matter to people.

              • @conditional_soup@lemm.ee
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                103 months ago

                Okay, I guess. This isn’t really a hill I’m prepared to die on. The point is that it’s still a cost that’s real to the user, even if it’s not a direct financial one.

              • @Thevenin@beehaw.org
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                2 months ago

                “Help, I can’t afford rent!” -> “Buy a house, stupid.”

                “Help, this software is buggy and unintuitive!” -> “Try using buggier and more unintuitive software, stupid.”

                Seems like a solid metaphor to me.

            • @morrowindOP
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              73 months ago

              Kind of off topic, but you can change how many characters your mastodon instance allows. Mine allows 1337 (for some reason) and I know many have it unlimited. I don’t know about TC’s instance.

      • @bort@feddit.de
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        123 months ago

        but if for whatever reason your OS got borked and it took you more than a certain amount of hours to recover, you’d switch to Windows.

        do you also count the time spent on arcane windows issues?

        • @seang96@spgrn.com
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          83 months ago

          It only took me…

          -checks notes-

          5 hours to upgrade from Windows 10 to 11.

          The installer is trash. Literally requires everything but the OS disk attached to the machine.

          • @Creat@discuss.tchncs.de
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            73 months ago

            do you do this regularly? and if so, why?

            don’t get me wrong, plenty of things need troubleshooting in Windows, too. but a one time upgrade taking a bit too long isn’t exactly a persistent problem.

            • @seang96@spgrn.com
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              93 months ago

              No, but it was still a similar experience to what others had in Linux in this post. Honestly never had an update be a problem on a Linux machine. It also wasn’t it taking long. It provides a generic error that could mean 100 different things and I had to troubleshoot to find which one it was.

          • rumschlumpel
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            3 months ago

            Also, last time I tried installing Windows 10, I gave up trying to make the graphics drivers work properly. IDK what the hell the issue was, but Ubuntu is a lot more plug-and-play for me than that - the proper graphics drivers were included out of the box!

        • @DestinyGrey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          33 months ago

          I’ve spent a lot of time on both windows and a bit less on Linux and I can firmly say I’ve spent far more time troubleshooting on Linux than on Windows.

          Windows tends to give me bullshit like audio crackling or nvidia’s stupid fucking software. With Linux the issues tend to be far more drastic, such as UI problems with every window, or misconfigured packages fucking with the entire OS, or an entire operating system just not functioning correctly with my hardware.

          A lot of this I could fix by not being such an idiot by how I use Linux, but in my defense at the time I didn’t know best practices for using Linux as a general user, and a lot of internet guides sure didn’t explain the dangers of what I was doing. Meanwhile, I’ve never fucked myself enough to need to reinstall windows by reading online guides.

          I’m glad I stuck with Linux long enough that it’s what I always put on my laptops no matter what, but man I would not want to put that on others, especially people with working lives.

      • @conditional_soup@lemm.ee
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        13 months ago

        I’d like you to meet windows 11. Windows 11 bricked my Alienware computer for two weeks until I said fuck it and installed Linux. They pushed an update that triggered the Bitlocker secure boot policy, which is annoying but not a problem. Except that the Bitlocker recovery key page on Microsoft’s website has been down for over a month. There’s other users like me who’ve had their machines bricked because Microsoft fucked up a webpage and can’t be assed to do a git revert. It took me hours of navigating Microsoft’s intentionally terrible support pages to figure out how to talk to a person (over IM, phone support is not a thing anymore), another 40 minutes to get a support tech on the chat, and then they told me that basically my options are to wait or wipe the drives and re-install windows 11.

        I didn’t want to wipe my drives, I liked my drives, but I’m not going to just let a machine sit there and be bricked for three months until Microsoft can be assed to un-brick it. So, I wiped the drives and installed mint. I can’t play all the games I used to (I can access probably 75% of my game library) but the performance is WAY better, like, obviously and shockingly better. Turns out that Bitlocker throttles your SSD performance significantly, and it also helps when your OS isn’t trying to both run a game and send your delicious, delicious data to ad servers or whatever.

        And windows wants even more live service dependencies with 12? Fuck that. I’ve been with them since '95, but I won’t follow them there. 11’s live service dependencies have been a disaster, and I can’t see myself getting excited about even more of that.

    • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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      73 months ago

      Time is money after all.

      You can ask a CEO to waste hours upon hours learning Linux, or they could install Windows and make bank using the hours saved.

  • Ech
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    953 months ago

    Better comparison would’ve been something like “Annoyed with your landlord? Go build a cabin in the woods!”. Like, that’s straight-up appealing to some people, but it’s also not just something anyone and everyone can do.

    • @OrnateLuna@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      383 months ago

      Even then that’s not that accurate, more like move to a different place. It’s inconvenient and might not have all the same things you wanted/liked from your old place but you can actually change things in the new place if you really want to

      • Hyperreality
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        203 months ago

        More like moving to France. For me it wouldn’t be an issue. My french isn’t bad and I learn languages quickly.

        I assume that’s not true of everyone, just like everyone isn’t great at PC stuff.

      • @Fermion@feddit.nl
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        123 months ago

        Then you find out that while the new place doesn’t have the problems the old place had, it has a whole new set of problems.

        Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.

        • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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          It is the same reason why tons of airports still run on Windows XP.

          They already have documented every single issue that could even happen and their solution. Having a new OS would mean new problems that won’t be solved in less than 5 minutes. Which at an airport could mean lives are at stake.

  • @misk@sopuli.xyz
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    Guy wanted to vent about smart thermostats, explicitly said he doesn’t need advice and got bajillion responses with advice, mostly from FOSS folks who couldn’t contain themselves. I’d be annoyed too.

      • Pizzasgood
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        343 months ago

        No. Thinking about the panda is involuntary in that scenario. Typing up and submitting an explicitly unwanted response is not involuntary. It’s a thing a person chooses to do expressly against the wishes of the person making the request.

        • @maegul
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          113 months ago

          It doesn’t help that Mastodon has very little design considerations for dealing with popular accounts, treating every account as if you’re only following your friends and family. (Emphasis mine)

          Came to the same realisation myself. The whole “just friends having lunch together” vibe that mastodon aims for simply breaks down at a certain scale, which means is essentially unsuitable as a Twitter replacement for all that looking for that.

          The lack of any feed/notifications management then means that you get subjected to all the annoying randos as though they are your friends or neighbours.

          Which, coupled with a culture of purism and gatekeeping and HOA-ing leads to what can be a genuinely toxic culture. Not for everyone all the time but enough of the time for some to have found it awful and left.

          But not enough talk about this. It’s designed as a suburban social media where you chat to friends and neighbours. Push it beyond that and you’ll have problems.

          • T (they/she)
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            23 months ago

            It was for me too because I wasn’t following anyone. As soon as I started following people that had strong opinions about technology and politics, well…

  • @bionicjoey@lemmy.ca
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    633 months ago

    Translation:“I refuse to try the thing that people tell me might make my life better. I prefer to rant and complain to random strangers on a public forum rather than accepting that a solution to my problem may exist”

    It’s funny, this is not at all his stance when it comes to hardware and appliances. It doesn’t even sound like something he’d say.

    • @dom@lemmy.ca
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      263 months ago

      The whole point is that a bunch of people don’t have the technical skills to figure out FOSS. Sure, sometimes the ux is just as good as the main competitor, but in my experience, usually it isnt and has a decent learning curve

      • @bionicjoey@lemmy.ca
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        113 months ago

        I’d be more sympathetic to that mindset if it was anyone other than TC saying this. He’s a smart dude and I have every confidence he could figure out how to use a new piece of software.

        • @0xD@infosec.pub
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          113 months ago

          … could.

          Or he (and anyone else) could go and do one of 20000 other potentially way more interesting things with their life.

          Imagine that?

        • @helenslunch@feddit.nl
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          93 months ago

          He is a smart guy but that doesn’t mean he knows everything. I’ve never seen him demonstrate proficiency in software.

        • @dom@lemmy.ca
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          53 months ago

          He’s noticed an issue that people who are into tech always push complicated things onto non techies. I don’t see how that is contradictory or weird…

      • @Thevenin@beehaw.org
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        This.

        Last month, I installed Mint, which is my first ever Linux install. I chose it because people said it would be the most hassle-free.

        The bugs currently plaguing me include:

        • Steam’s UI scaling is off, to the extent that I practically need a magnifying glass to read it.
        • Bluetooth has now decided that it no longer wants to automatically connect to my speaker.
        • Discord won’t share audio during screen sharing anymore.

        But the big one, the one that made me stop and think, was the keyboard. Right out of the box, my function keys (brightness, airplane mode, etc) would not work. This turned out to be because the laptop was not recognizing its keyboard as a libinput device, but treating it as a HID sensor hub instead. To fix it, I had to:

        • Find similar problems on the forums and recognize which were applicable to my case.
        • Learn what the terminal was and how to copy code into it.
        • Learn that the terminal can be opened from different folders, which alters the meaning of the commands.
        • Learn the file system, including making how to make hidden files visible.
        • Figure out that a bunch of steps in the forum were just creating a text file, and that any text editor would do.
        • Figure out there were typos and missing steps in the forum solutions.
        • Learn what a kernel is, figure out mine was out of date, and update it.
        • Do it all over again a month later when for some reason my function keys stopped working again.

        For me, this was not a big deal. It did take me two evenings to solve, but that’s mostly because I’m lazy. But for someone with low technical literacy (such as my mom, who barely grasps the concept of ad blockers in Google Chrome), every one of these bullet points would be a monumental accomplishment.

        The FOSS crowd can be a bit insular, and they seem to regularly forget that about 95% of the people out there have such low technical literacy that they struggle to do anything more involved than turn on a lightbulb.

    • @Domiku@beehaw.org
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      223 months ago

      I follow him on Mastodon, and I think many regular users misunderstand his specific problems. They’re unique due to his huge number of followers, and I think that if we want Mastodon to grow, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to include more tools for folks with large followings.

      • @helenslunch@feddit.nl
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        73 months ago

        I think Mastodon conceptually doesn’t care about big users. And they don’t care about growing. Gargeon certainly has as many followers as anyone and certainly understands any associated problems.

        • @Domiku@beehaw.org
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          43 months ago

          That’s fine, but we need to just admit that and stop trying to get the big users to stay by sheer force of will. Either give them the tools they need or accept that Mastodon isn’t for them and that they’ll go elsewhere. You can’t have it both ways.

  • bou
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    613 months ago

    @morrowind funny to find this here when I wrote my reply just a while ago:

    “It’s like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home.”

    Maybe if you’re suggesting them to install Linux From Scratch, then yes, it is.

    If you’re suggesting them them to install any of the many very simple (and very usable OOTB) distros like Fedora, then it’s not.

    In that case it’s like the house is free, already built and furnitured, and right next to their own; but they have to move their personal belongings from one house to the other and learn a different room layout.

    Sure, they still have the right to complain about how their landlord treats them like crap. But they sound pretty damn stupid if they do so while having an available free house right next door, and refusing to move because they don’t want to learn a new room layout.

    • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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      How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

      I’m talking drivers, audio, networking, libraries, DNF, repositories, plugins, runtime dependencies, …

      • That house isn’t furnished.

      And don’t forget, plenty of popular software isn’t even compatible. Meaning you got to use alternative software that doesn’t always do what you want it to do.

      • So buy a new couch, cause that one isn’t getting in.
      • @ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        253 months ago

        How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

        “Every”

      • @anothermember@beehaw.org
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        How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

        I’m talking drivers, audio, networking, libraries, DNF, repositories, plugins, runtime dependencies, …

        Is proprietary software any easier than that though? Don’t you have to put in much more time removing all the spyware and bloat they put in and then spend all your time perpetually fighting against forced updates and applications being installed without your permission?

        Whereas with Fedora my experience is more or less install it and forget it.

        The “it’s easier” argument for proprietary software I think died at least 15 years ago.

        Choice of applications is a different argument.

        • @MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          Is proprietary software any easier than that though?

          Yes, take nvidia drivers for example, on windows I just download the installer and run it and done.

          Last time I tried to move to Linux desktop (attempted Fedora and then EndeavourOS) about a year ago, none of that worked properly. Installing drivers was not in any way straightforward, needing CLI commands and google, where every guide I found seemed to have a different method used to install them, I kept getting outdated ones, and I had no idea what I was doing.

          At the end of all that I still didn’t have HW acceleration in my browsers, my desktop had screen tearing, gsync didn’t work properly in windowed apps, the GPU wouldn’t downclock fully at idle like it’s supposed to, I couldn’t figure out how to get shadowplay working, and so on.

          And yes I do know this is technically mostly nvidia’s fault for not having as good quality of drivers on linux. But as an end user all I care about is that my stuff works properly without googling things, needing the CLI, and spending a lot of time on it.

          Don’t you have to put in much more time removing all the spyware and bloat they put in and then spend all your time perpetually fighting against forced updates and applications being installed without your permission?

          Definitely not, I don’t really spend much time at all. I haven’t experienced forced updates, my apps just update through winget manually when I want to. There are a few extra apps I don’t need on windows but those take a minute to remove, I can’t say I’ve ever experienced an app being installed without my permission other than edge I guess, but that replaces IE for embedded browser stuff so it’s kind of needed.

          Most of my ‘admin’ time is spent on the opensource apps I use, generally on my self hosted stuff. But also just on basic things like backup software, Veeam is my primary backup which is basically a 1 minute set up with a few clicks through the GUI, but I’ve been trying out Restic too which requires writing my own scripts to handle backups, more scripts to handle pruning and such, manually installing them as services so they run properly, and writing my own notification system on top of that just to get an email if something goes wrong.

          Opensource is great, but it’s usually extremely time intensive to get the same results, with lots of documentation, google, and just wasted time trying to figure out the basics.

          • @anothermember@beehaw.org
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            53 months ago

            Admittedly I do have the bias of experience which could blind me to the difficulties, when I phrased my first two sentences as questions they were genuine questions. Between work and personal life I must’ve installed Linux in some form at least 200 times over the last 20 years, so I’m not most users.

            I’ve also not used Windows in many years, the last I think was when I had to use Windows 7 for work about 10 years ago and I found it extremely difficult to get it to do what I want. If it’s improved then it’s improved.

            On the other hand a novice user can ask somebody to install Linux for them, what about that? That’s what my non-techy parents have done, and it’s easier for them to use Linux (they say so) and easier for me to provide technical support for them.

            Also yes, avoid Nvidia.

            • @MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              Yes we do get sort of blind to what the average non-tech person wants out of their computer, I certainly have plenty of Linux experience on servers, but that just doesn’t seem to translate across to being able to easily troubleshoot desktop Linux issues. I think because a server is a ‘set up once’ type thing, whereas running linux on my desktop feels like a constant battle with installing programs, and driver updates or new versions of a game breaking things.

              IMO windows has vastly improved since W7. I can’t even remember the last time I had to troubleshoot a game or program not working properly. I have W11 on 3 PCs and it’s been extremely stable, almost every program other than games is installed via the winget package manager which also handles updates, and it doesn’t get that ‘windows slows down over time’ feeling that used to happen on 7, vista, etc… Obviously there’s some bloat to remove when you first install it, and a few annoying settings to change, but that’s not that big of a deal to me and I spend just as much time on a fresh linux install getting things how I want them.

              As far as the GPU choice, right now nvidia just makes a better GPU IMO, with their DLSS and frame-gen that AMD so far can’t compete with. Shadowplay also works a lot more reliably than ReLive in my experience. I briefly had an RX 6700XT for a few weeks before returning it due to driver/software issues.

              I spend enough time fixing IT things at work and on my selfhosted server stuff, I just want to get home, hit the power button on my PC and play some games or work on some code for a project without anything getting in the way.

          • @tuhriel@infosec.pub
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            23 months ago

            Yep, got the same experience as you. Not with nvidia drivers bit my huawei laptop had a broken audio driver where only half of the speakers worked… Unless you plugges in a headphone… Then the headphone and the other half of the speakers worked… All in all, it took me at least a da to get that working

            Also, still no fingerprint support…

            You can do a lot with opensource and tailor it to your need, but you have to invest a lot of time… And that’s what a lot of people don’t have

        • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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          That is the thing, the software will function even with all the spyware and bloat.

          Doesn’t bother a non-tech person.

          • @anothermember@beehaw.org
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            43 months ago

            Or could it be that it might bother them but they just keep quiet and put up with it, assume that it’s part of owning a computer and feel powerless to change anything?

      • @RandomVideos@programming.dev
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        With 0 experience with linux i installed nobara without any problems. I didnt need to install anything else(edit: excluding the software you can install in the “welcome” app), to change something in the settings etc

        The only “hard” thing i had to do was to disable secure boot in the BIOS

      • @Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
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        153 months ago

        I think you are talking about the situation that might be true 15 years ago, vut right now you’ll be hardpressed to find anything that doesn’t work out of the box on any modern distribution. I don’t know what plugins and dependancies don’t work on your machine, but I assure you it’s not a universal experience, far from it.
        Also, most of the software that you use on Linux is free, so you don’t “buy” new couch if your old is built specifically for your old house, you learn to sit on any of the new ones that you can get for free at any moment

        • @DestinyGrey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          23 months ago

          I say this over and over again, but I’m going to say it again. I disagree firmly with the second point because there is such a lead and usability and ease of use for popular commercial software such as Microsoft office and Adobe software. It’s available in so many languages, it has so much functionality, and yes, both surpass FOSS solutions by a wide margin in functionality.

          If you don’t need Excel, I think Linux and libre office might work fine for a lot of people, but there are still gaps in usability and accessibility. I don’t really see the same for anything Adobe does in the Linux space however.

          Linux is like 90% of the way there, but these are people with jobs and families and shit. You can’t expect them to spend time having to overextend themselves with technology.

          • @Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
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            43 months ago

            I wasn’t saying that we have everything available for Linux. Not yet, anyway. I was saying that whatever we have there is usually free and very customisable.
            People committing from Windows and especially Mac infrastructure think that since they spent hundreds of dollars on software they use, they will have to do that again if they will swith to Linux. For a lot of people the thought of free software just never crossing the mind

        • @Stowaway@midwest.social
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          DraugerOS wouldnt even boot from the thumb drive for me. Garuda sort of worked, the live boot was damn near perfect, from a stability and basic performance perspective, but after a basic install there were some annoying artifacts like a block behind the cursor on some windows, steams store page would flash rapidly and performance was trash in any game even on low settings. A Logitech mouse scroll wheel was hit or miss working. I mean like you spin the wheel and while the wheel was free spinning the browser would start and stop responding to it. 8 hours of messing with kernels, drivers, and settings it I threw in the towel. Not worth the effort to just get it to run normally let alone

          Arch was similarly poor performance. Mint was also poor performance. Im not a fan of the PopOS style, but it actually ran great on my machine so, I’ll take it.

          Point being, I tried 4 different distros before finding one that worked mostly well out of box.

          Edit: wrong name for draugeros

          • @Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
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            32 months ago

            Where the fuck have you found whatever weird esoteric distribs you are talking about, and why on earth did you went with those? Depending on the answer to the question, I kind of understand how you managed to make Arch “perform poorly” whatever that means in that regard, you need to have at least basic understanding to use Arch (or treat it as an opportunity to learn).
            But you don’t start your experiments with something from third page of Google, at that point you’re an alpha tester.

            • @Stowaway@midwest.social
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              32 months ago

              Google best gaming Linux distros. DraugerOS, Garuda, and popos are all prominent distros focused on gaming.

              DraugerOS is Ubuntu LTS based.

              Mint, not gaming focused, has been around for ages and is Ubuntu based. I’ve used it previously on older hardware with no issue. Just apparently doesn’t like newer hardware.

              Garuda is arch based, probably why it was such a pain.

              Popos is Ubuntu based as well.

              I’ve also tried KDE plasma, ubuntu based, and man was that slow as hell. Works great on some hardware not on the hardware I tried.

              I’ve installed Ubuntu in the past and had WiFi driver issues.

              You mentioned any modern distros should work out of the box. The only one listed that mostly worked out of the box with semi reasonable performance was popos.

              if someone is looking to install a distros to play games, theyll probably google “Linux for gaming” install one of the prominent distros listed above geared toward gaming then bang their head against the wall and quit.

              We may understand arch is a full time job, but when Joe from sales builds a new gaming rig and took someone’s advice to install Linux and save money he doesn’t know all Linux distros are not created equally. Maybe he gets garuda or draugeros and bangs his head against the wall then goes back to windows.

              There are a million different distros and yes some of the major ones work fine, but not always and if you run into issues it can be exponentially harder to fix the issue especially if you have no IT experience. Making it even worse is toxicity in forums or other support places where people treat you like you should know better because they have of knowledge of Linux and forget that we all have different levels of experience, many people have no experience.

    • @morrowindOP
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      203 months ago

      It’s somewhere in between, you’re not building your own software, but oss software does usually tend to need more work. It’s like telling someone with a shitty landlord to move to a new house which they get to own, but it has no paint, or lighting, or flooring and they have to move their furniture and learn a different layout

      • @Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi
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        173 months ago

        And If it doesn’t require more work, it requires different work. The beast you know is easier and more comfortable to understand than the beast you don’t know, even if it would be more beneficial to learn to deal with the newcomer.

      • @niisyth@lemmy.ca
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        103 months ago

        Or even, just move to my building that has a much better landlord, but it’s a 5 storey walkup.

        Some folks will be able to use that no issue, some folks might removed but be happy in the end, and for some folks it’d be a nigh impossibility to do so.

        And all of that, provided the house they have to be in, is within their control.

      • JustinHanagan
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        33 months ago

        It’s like telling someone with a shitty landlord to move to a new free house which they get to own