Some of those arguments are legit but like half is complaining about wayland being fundamentally different to xorg and obviously you cannot use straight xorg apps on it.
“Linux is inferior because it breaks all my powershell scripts and all my windows only apps. Don’t use linux.”
I mean, to play devil’s advocate here - if functionality that you need is all of a sudden swept out from under you then it doesn’t matter from an end user perspective if it’s not the intended design for Wayland - to the user, Wayland is broken in that regard.
A better equivalent would be if an application you used every day for the last 10 years all of a sudden has an update that kills features you used because that’s no longer part of the dev(s) vision. Or headphone jacks on phones. Or whatever that weird thing with Teslas where they disabled a sensor in an OTA update and replaced it with some other solution(?).
Or to modify the example you put, if Windows killed the cmd shell and only left powershell in a Windows Update.
I have an application that I need to use at work which will never fit Wayland’s design, short of me either finding a new job, keeping a Windows install around, or using a really old version of Linux around in a VM when X11 has completely disappeared from all distros (which won’t really work) - there will be nothing that I can do about it on the Wayland side because it’s highly unlikely the devs will update it to be compatible (since it’s a shock that they actually even had Linux support in the first place).
As it is, I currently just pop into an X11 session whenever I’m on working hours, it will suck that I can’t do that with Fedora come next release when they completely drop X from the repos.
Most points are just complaining that tools specifically designed for X don’t work on Wayland. That’s like hanging onto your childhood pants and complaining they don’t fit anymore.
And one of the first points is how Wayland crash will bring down all running applications - yep, just like on X11! But it’s somehow Wayland’s fault.
Besides the fact that on Wayland running apps can survive a compositor crash (I think new KDE will have that feature), which I doubt can be done on X11.
An X session depends on the main user process. Unless a DE picks the compositor as the main process then no, a compositor crash won’t affect the session. But they don’t do that, for obvious reasons, since the compositor is just a feature among others. They typically have a special program that takes that role, for example xfce4-session.
And one of the first points is how Wayland crash will bring down all running applications - yep, just like on X11! But it’s somehow Wayland’s fault.
They said that a Wayland window manager will bring down all apps, not a Wayland crash. Which, again, is not like it works on X, as I explained above. The window manager on X, like the compositor, is just another feature. If it crashes it just gets replaced and the session continues.
A WM crash does not bring down all the other applications… but an X11 server crash definitely does!
In wayland they are the same program (a.k.a. the compositor). User applications can be designed to survive a compositor crash, though many are not able yet
But many of those are actively used by people. I use screen recording, screen sharing, global menus, key automation and window automation every day. Even if I wanted to use Wayland I couldn’t. What exactly is it that you want me to do?
I suppose it explains why people have a bad attitude about Wayland when tools providing useful functionality are described as trojans.
X11 can (…mostly…) have great security by just providing a suitable X Security module to it. It just seems it wasn’t considered that big of an issue that anyone bothered. Nokia Maemo/Meego used to rock such a module.
It records the screen without any restrictions and without having to ask for any permissions.
Which is exactly the requirements you need to remote desktop access via tools like meshcentral, anydesk… I don’t understand this mentality of “X11 was broken!!!”. Yeah well Wayland is broken since it stops legitimate uses as well.
Not sure what vlc would help with. So I have to use a very specific DE in order to get the functionality? Does this really sound like the linux way to you? Getting forced to use particular stuff to get something to work?
That’s a feature, stop buying hardware from vendors that treat GNU/Linux and *BSD users as second-class citizens and locks them into proprietary drivers.
Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.
That’s a feature, stop buying hardware from vendors that treat GNU/Linux and *BSD users as second-class citizens and locks them into proprietary drivers.
Nowadays I buy a new graphics card maybe twice a decade. I’m not changing the card for software.
Also, we’re all using proprietary hardware. Be serious. If you tried to never use anything proprietary you’d never use anything. You’re using like a dozen of them right now.
Sure, I have proprietary bits on my kernel and my AMD GPU needs proprietary firmware loaded to work, but that’s a hell lot different than the situation NVIDIA shoves users into. It’s one thing to have small proprietary components that don’t bother me or break my workflow, it’s another to have black box drivers that can bork my setup if I dare to update my packages.
Cyberpunk2077 (slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, slight advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
DiRT Rally 2.0 ( X.Org is clear winner…)
F1 22 (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
GTA V (Clear advantage to X.Org Nvidia only… Since AMD was having driver issues with this game)
Hitman 3 (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Metro Last Light Redux (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Total War: Three Kingdoms (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
X-Plane 12 (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Quake 2 RTX (slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, slight advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Where “slight” is within a few frames… let’s call it 0-5 frames… and clear advantage is ~10 frames+…
It’s clear that X.org is better overall. It’s capable of giving the user more options in hardware with less bullshit.
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Some of those arguments are legit but like half is complaining about wayland being fundamentally different to xorg and obviously you cannot use straight xorg apps on it.
“Linux is inferior because it breaks all my powershell scripts and all my windows only apps. Don’t use linux.”
I mean, to play devil’s advocate here - if functionality that you need is all of a sudden swept out from under you then it doesn’t matter from an end user perspective if it’s not the intended design for Wayland - to the user, Wayland is broken in that regard.
A better equivalent would be if an application you used every day for the last 10 years all of a sudden has an update that kills features you used because that’s no longer part of the dev(s) vision. Or headphone jacks on phones. Or whatever that weird thing with Teslas where they disabled a sensor in an OTA update and replaced it with some other solution(?).
Or to modify the example you put, if Windows killed the cmd shell and only left powershell in a Windows Update.
I have an application that I need to use at work which will never fit Wayland’s design, short of me either finding a new job, keeping a Windows install around, or using a really old version of Linux around in a VM when X11 has completely disappeared from all distros (which won’t really work) - there will be nothing that I can do about it on the Wayland side because it’s highly unlikely the devs will update it to be compatible (since it’s a shock that they actually even had Linux support in the first place).
As it is, I currently just pop into an X11 session whenever I’m on working hours, it will suck that I can’t do that with Fedora come next release when they completely drop X from the repos.
This is literally comedy lmao.
Most points are just complaining that tools specifically designed for X don’t work on Wayland. That’s like hanging onto your childhood pants and complaining they don’t fit anymore.
And one of the first points is how Wayland crash will bring down all running applications - yep, just like on X11! But it’s somehow Wayland’s fault.
Besides the fact that on Wayland running apps can survive a compositor crash (I think new KDE will have that feature), which I doubt can be done on X11.
And I had exactly zero crashes of Wayland in my life, on any device.
An X session depends on the main user process. Unless a DE picks the compositor as the main process then no, a compositor crash won’t affect the session. But they don’t do that, for obvious reasons, since the compositor is just a feature among others. They typically have a special program that takes that role, for example
xfce4-session.They said that a Wayland window manager will bring down all apps, not a Wayland crash. Which, again, is not like it works on X, as I explained above. The window manager on X, like the compositor, is just another feature. If it crashes it just gets replaced and the session continues.
This is not what they are saying.
This does not happen on Xorg. If the WM crashes, it’s possible to kill it and restart it without exiting running applications.
A WM crash does not bring down all the other applications… but an X11 server crash definitely does!
In wayland they are the same program (a.k.a. the compositor). User applications can be designed to survive a compositor crash, though many are not able yet
But many of those are actively used by people. I use screen recording, screen sharing, global menus, key automation and window automation every day. Even if I wanted to use Wayland I couldn’t. What exactly is it that you want me to do?
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I suppose it explains why people have a bad attitude about Wayland when tools providing useful functionality are described as trojans.
X11 can (…mostly…) have great security by just providing a suitable X Security module to it. It just seems it wasn’t considered that big of an issue that anyone bothered. Nokia Maemo/Meego used to rock such a module.
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By that logic, is the compositor working any different than a trojan? Is there really a difference?
The Wayland compositor is always capturing all your keyboard and mouse as well. No permissions asked. Pretty sus.
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Which is exactly the requirements you need to remote desktop access via tools like meshcentral, anydesk… I don’t understand this mentality of “X11 was broken!!!”. Yeah well Wayland is broken since it stops legitimate uses as well.
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Care to share some then? Specifically ones that allow remote control without local access to grant permission.
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Not sure what vlc would help with. So I have to use a very specific DE in order to get the functionality? Does this really sound like the linux way to you? Getting forced to use particular stuff to get something to work?
That’s a feature, stop buying hardware from vendors that treat GNU/Linux and *BSD users as second-class citizens and locks them into proprietary drivers.
Seems to work just fine on FreeBSD.
Gaming performance is actually better on Wayland.
Nowadays I buy a new graphics card maybe twice a decade. I’m not changing the card for software.
Also, we’re all using proprietary hardware. Be serious. If you tried to never use anything proprietary you’d never use anything. You’re using like a dozen of them right now.
Sure, I have proprietary bits on my kernel and my AMD GPU needs proprietary firmware loaded to work, but that’s a hell lot different than the situation NVIDIA shoves users into. It’s one thing to have small proprietary components that don’t bother me or break my workflow, it’s another to have black box drivers that can bork my setup if I dare to update my packages.
*on some games…
Did you read your own source? They covered:
Cyberpunk2077 (slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, slight advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
DiRT Rally 2.0 ( X.Org is clear winner…)
F1 22 (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
GTA V (Clear advantage to X.Org Nvidia only… Since AMD was having driver issues with this game)
Hitman 3 (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Metro Last Light Redux (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Total War: Three Kingdoms (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
X-Plane 12 (Slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, clear advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Quake 2 RTX (slight advantage to Wayland on AMD, slight advantage to X.Org on Nvidia)
Where “slight” is within a few frames… let’s call it 0-5 frames… and clear advantage is ~10 frames+…
It’s clear that X.org is better overall. It’s capable of giving the user more options in hardware with less bullshit.