- cross-posted to:
- completeanarchy
- 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
- cross-posted to:
- completeanarchy
- 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
I am so so divided on if I should vote for biden or not. I wanna vote third party to at least do something or should I just stay home and protest and advocate where I can? Thoughts?
You must log in or # to comment.
People have a fucked-up understanding of voting in the US. You are not voting for the person you agree with. You are voting for the person you’d rather negotiate with.
If you actually care beyond the aesthetics of whether you did the cool thing or not, you have to think about the function of what you’re doing and not just whether it feels good.
You are not voting for the person you agree with. You are voting for the person you’d rather negotiate with.
This is really well put, I haven’t heard it explained this way before.
Even worse, you’re voting for the person who represents the party that, over decades, has the greatest chance of moving the Overton window over near to the place where your policies seem like a moderate idea if their party starts winning every election.
You just have to hope that the Overton window is already at a point where your policies are actually able to be changed in your lifetime.
In Australia we have preferential voting.
Unlike the US you can actually vote for an independent of green candidate without it being a throwaway vote.
When the time comes your independent doesn’t have a chance of getting in - they still get funding, but your second third and fourth preferences get taken into account and lesser monies paid out accordingly.
Like, can you imagine being able to vote Bernie without it being a total throwaway?
This is how all voting should work.
We have this in some small pockets in the US and its exciting but doesnt always work all that well, yet, if progressives just dont run. NYC mayor Eric Adams was elected through a ballot like this.
Yeah I’m jealous. Good for you.
Unfortunately, you should vote for the lesser of two evils. Biden is shit, but he isn’t a fascist/theocrat.
Locally, look for candidates that want to push for election reformation, push these initiatives yourself, look for activists groups promoting it. Getting rid of first past the post voting is the first step in opening the door for more than 2 parties.
While I wish we had a candidate that wasn’t 80. I’ve actually been pleasantly surprised by Biden’s administration.
And yes, the risk on this one is too great for third party. I genuinely do not believe that democracy will survive another term with the orange turd. He’s already tried to overthrow our government once. He has made it clear that he plans to succeed through force if reelected.
I genuinely do not believe that democracy will survive another term with the orange turd.
the fact that you still believe that democracy exists (or ever existed, but I digress) despite him and his cohorts doing literally everything to show all you libs otherwise, is truly staggering…
I know you feel cool and radical when you say it, but when you call people libs, you just sound like a trump supporter.
Democracy isn’t black and white. It exists along a continuum. Voters in the US do have some influence on policy outcomes, albeit less than they might in a more democratic system.
If democracy didn’t exist, the right wouldn’t be trying to prevent us from voting.
Agreed. The time to push for third parties is every day except presidential election day. That’s just the reality of the system right now.
Change doesn’t begin at the top. It begins at the bottom. Many state and local elections across the US already use ranked choice voting, which is the bare minimum we would need to have more than 2 viable candidates in the presidential election. We need to push for ranked choice voting (or something better; it’s not the be-all-end-all of voting systems!) in federal elections as well.
We have a generation of voters now who are literally too young to remember the 2000 election. If you’re one of them, I urge you to look it up. I heard the same song back then. Look back and tell me if they were right or wrong, if you really believe that Gore would have been the same as Bush.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
Yeah! Unfortunately there’s currently a law blocking anything better than RCV to be used for Congress.
I will not vote for the lesser of two genocides, and if you do you are a genocide supporter.
Have fun standing aside and doing nothing to stop them. Your choice to not participate is simply authorization to continue on the same path without resistance.
Are you going to donate to Biden’s campaign or volunteer for him? If you don’t, you’re just standing aside.
No, I am busy working for campaigns for my city and state level government bodies. People who want to change the first past the post voting system that cements the system we have. People who are against the fascist israeli government, as well as the US’s participation is constant destabilization of nations around the world. I have a much larger impact on my local government who, in turn, are my representatives with power balanced against the executive office.
One of our most successful campaigns was the recent amendment change to enshrine abortion access. Also our promotion of information about Jim Jordan’s proven role in protecting Sandusky is one of the more successful methods this state has seen in terms of turning people from a political party. We are also working to keep Sobe out of our area as we have spent billions cleaning the pollution from the steel mills and Sobe will just revert things. So, I am stretched a little thin on that front.
What have you done? Are you willing, or capable, to maybe take up arms to change things? Do you have any experience in life that would make you have some idea if you could? What have you done besides decide you are better than people for allowing these things to go on without challenge?
No, I am busy working for campaigns for my city and state level government bodies.
I’m going to vote down ticket for Democrats, I’m just not voting for Biden. What’s the difference?
What have you done? Are you willing, or capable, to maybe take up arms to change things? Do you have any experience in life that would make you have some idea if you could? What have you done besides decide you are better than people for allowing these things to go on without challenge?
I’m not willing to talk about that with a stranger on a public forum, but I’ve been busy with certain things that aren’t the next game of voteball.
“I’ve been busy with certain things that aren’t the next game of voteball.”
I believe you
I can’t help but notice you didn’t answer the more important question: I’m going to vote down ticket for Democrats, I’m just not voting for Biden. What’s the difference?
Because as far as I can see, by your logic you’re donating to Trump and volunteering for Trump by choosing to not donate to Biden or volunteer for Biden.
Then you are voting for the greater of two genocides, which seems worse tbh.
If Trump was President, Democrats would oppose genocide and support a ceasefire. I’m almost certain of it.
So! I’m voting for a split government. Democrats in control of the legislature will keep Trump from being able to really do anything.
And just how is that legislature going to stop him. Couldnt do it when he was blocking weapons from going to Ukraine, won’t be able to now.
The legislature can stop him from giving weapons to Israel, so that’s at least one genocide they would stop if Trump was president.
No they wouldn’t. They would happily work with Republicans to fund Israel. I have no idea where you got it in your head that Democrats have any sort of tendency towards contrarianism; they trip over their own feet rushing to work with the Republicans on anything they can to prove they’re “moderate” and “non-partisan”.
Not “Republicans” - this is about Trump specifically. They’re willing to be partisan when it comes to orange man bad.
This is just completely ahistorical. Democrats repeatedly worked with Trump throughout his presidency. Pelosi and Schumer met with him constantly to try and broker deals. They literally bragged constantly about “crossing the aisle”, how they were “moderates”. Dems love posturing as the mature adults in the room.
In some instances, it was legitimate to work together. They supported his administration’s 2019 infrastructure plan. Trump worked with Dems instead of the GOP to get hurricane relief. Some good spending packages were passed by him working with Dems when the GOP was too disorganized.
In other cases, they should have obstructed harder but didn’t. They fast tracked many of his federal judge appointments. Some voted for his supreme court picks. They didn’t obstruct his tax cuts enough.
The idea that Democrats were impetulently obstinate with Trump for no reason is a far-right talking point, it has no basis in reality, so I’m not sure why I’m seeing supposed leftists repeating such misinfo. They weren’t obstinate enough with Trump, especially when it mattered; that’s part of the problem with Democrats! They’re far too conciliatory to the right-wing! That’s why we hate them, remember?
I distinctly remember Democrats opposing Trump on moving the embassy to Jerusalem. They never fought him as much as they should, but they did fight him. Let’s not forget this is also what lead to the rise of the DSA and the largest protest movement in American history. Trump highlights the contradictions and helps libs see who their friends and enemies really are.
You are why America is what it is today.
STOP VOTING FOR EVIL.
Biden is 100% theocrat. He has a history of being against gay marriage and against abortion because he is Catholic. He is against cannabis legalization because of the religious circles he runs in.
Biden is 100% a fascist. He is making back room deals to try to secure the ability to unilaterally siphon money into a genocide behind closed doors.
We keep voting for the lesser evil, which is still evil, and as such, it keeps getting worse.
When the game is rigged, you flip the board.
They are going to do what they are going to do either way. Make them do it with without public support. Make them do it with a 10% voter turn out. Make them feel the shame.
The entire world seems to be striking, and one by one, those who are on strike are winning over those who thought they were the owners.
Put America on strike. Don’t vote until there is someone worth voting for. Don’t vote until we have universal healthcare. Don’t vote until we have higher education for all. Don’t vote until everyone sleeps under a roof after a meal.
Can you explain why you expect low turnout to do anything but hand control of the government to people who demonstrably feel no shame? Because one party keeps trying to lower turnout, saying turnout is bad, and generally trying to remove the ability to vote and for votes to matter, and it’s not the one Biden is the point guy for. The people reading Donald Trump: The Man, The Christ, are going to show up, so your argument is, “people who would vote against that shouldn’t show up and should cede power to the evangelicals who do”.
You can set up for the rebellion and vote. It’s not one or the other. Coalition build, do direct action, set up for a general strike… And take 30 minutes out of that to vote for someone who’ll make it easier to do praxis, coalition building, etc. (not easy, but easier)
You keep posting unhinged shit like this. I trust that sane people have the good sense and will ignore your rants.
The downvotes help this post be ignored.
You are voting for a genocide, and I am the unhinged one.
That’s rich.
OK, you do this, get back to me when it accomplishes something.
Sure thing. Likewise, get back to me when your mental gymnastics finally fully sink America.
Bailing water while the hole gets bigger isn’t accomplishing anything. It’s wasting time and effort on the wrong thing to ensure the boat sinks.
Not voting is simply an absolute capitulation. The voting system reform thing is already starting, labor organization is growing faster than it has in decades, state constitutions across the US are being changed for the progressive, even in red states like Ohio.
What has not voting accomplished?
Bailing water while the hole gets bigger isn’t accomplishing anything. It’s wasting time and effort on the wrong thing to ensure the boat sinks.
This literally isn’t true. You’re supposed to bail water until the hole is fixed. You can’t just do one or the other, you have to do both in tandem.
If voting did nothing, there wouldn’t be so much voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Personally, I would say absolutely do not stay home. If you want to abstain from the presidential vote or primaries it might not make a difference, depending on your state, but in the more local ballots you can make a difference for sure. Even better, consider getting involved in local politics, even just in the school board. Showing up to meetings and speaking can change minds. Shifting your town’s culture and making local connecions makes a bigger difference than a vote for Biden in most states.
Voting is not enough, but as someone else here said, vote for who you’d rather negotiate with. Additionally, when people like Trump get elected it sends a message to their sympathizers that they’re in the right, and it helps the overton window shift to the right. Look at the increase in hate crime after Trump won. Who is in power can cause cultural shifts that also make activism harder or easier, or even literally safer.
vote for who you’d rather negotiate with
I’m not saying don’t vote, but is it reasonable to expect that we can negotiate for much of anything?
If you are going to organize for political action, then you might as well include collectively voting for certain candidates.
You can’t negotiate without leverage. If our votes are guaranteed, we have nothing to offer and they have no reason to listen.
The bulk of the US operates with two-stage elections, a primary election where you decide who the party nominee is, and a general election where it’s a contest between parties. The place to not guarantee your vote is in the primary; it’s a smaller election, and each vote there matters much more than in the general election. By turning out in the primary, and choosing a candidate there whom you agree with, you get enormous leverage over policy.
Yeah, and when we tried that with Bernie they destroyed the Iowa caucus with the Shadow App. Then they handed it to a nobody like Pete.
When Bernie kept winning the other early states, all the other candidates dropped out to form Voltron with Biden as the head and Warren to stay in as a spoiler to stop Bernie. Obama personally called up the also-rans and got them to drop out! Then, as a reward, Biden handed out positions to his competition for being loyal to the party and stopping the socialist.
The Primary has too little electoral oversight and too much Party meddling. We have no leverage there.
I voted for Bernie after he lost because it meant his supporters were still there to help influence policy.
And it isn’t like voting keeps you from other firmst of political organization and action. It is just low hanging fruit you can do along with other actions.
I’m going to vote down ticket for legislators and city council and such, I’m just not voting for Biden without a ceasefire.
If my vote is guaranteed then I have no leverage. They can just ignore me forever because I’m already locked in.
Unfortunately in this election (like last one and probably the next few elections at least), we don’t have the luxury of voting for who we most idealistically agree with, or making a protest statement. Fascism and authoritarianism are on the rise here (and in many other places). It has completely taken control of one of the two major parties, the Republican party.
The way our electoral system works, if we don’t vote for the only viable opposition, which is the Democrats, we are in danger of allowing an authoritarian regime to take over and toss democracy and our civil rights aside. Once democracy is lost it will take generations to get back, if ever. Trump in spite of everything, is the likely republican nominee (if not, someone just like him). See what would happen if he gets into office again here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-2024-platform-so-far-1.6961527
That’s scary as hell. Despite people being unhappy with Biden or his age, he has accomplished a lot in spite of the odds, with republicans doing all in their power to stop him. See https://navigatorresearch.org/lowering-drug-prices-and-investing-in-infrastructure-are-most-popular-and-known-biden-accomplishments/
But the main point is that electing Biden (or whatever Democrat it may be if he doesn’t run for some reason) will prevent the authoritarian regime from taking power.
the main point is that electing Biden (or whatever Democrat it may be if he doesn’t run for some reason) will prevent the authoritarian regime from taking power.
No, it will delay a worse authoritarian regime from taking power. Voting kicks the can down the road, and should not be viewed as a strategy for the basis of political change.
Political power under any system of government comes from actual power, being it social influence, martial capability, economic domination, or labor power. Using energy to promote the theatre of power over building real power is a long-term losing strategy. Corporate news spends so much time covering political debates between politicians and ignores labor struggles, street protests, and activist movements for a reason.
I support activism expanding the right to vote (to incarcerated people for example), and I support people voting for progressive politicians - it is a form of harm reduction, and I am not an accelerationist. But if we don’t use the time and energy we have to build the alternative, everyone loses by buying into the premise of electoral politics.
It’s a game rigged from the start to favor white land-owning men, and has only marginally been softened. For example, your vote for the United States’ executive officer counts less than the demographically republican voters in red states due to shenanigans like the electoral college. A brick in the right place has a lot more political impact than a ballot in the hands of an antifascist.
Fascism and authoritarianism are on the rise here (and in many other places). It has completely taken control of one of the two major parties, the Republican party.
But the main point is that electing Biden (or whatever Democrat it may be if he doesn’t run for some reason) will prevent the authoritarian regime from taking power.
You can have one or the other, not both )hint: fascism isn’t going to let anyone vote it away, just like you pointed out before drifting back to the wrong answer, it is using both parties to take hold, and voting for one over the other is just playing along, not resisting)
(E: it’s late and I realise now I misread that first bit I quoted, thinking you had said it had taken control of the two major parties, and that you at least were headed in the right direction, my bad, that was never the case…)
The structure of how elections in almost all of the US are conducted, with a plurality determining the winner, means that there’s a huge advantage to choosing to vote for somebody who has a big coalition and whose views are less far from your own than the other big coalition.
Let’s look at three examples:
Example 1:
- R: 1000 votes
- D: 1001 votes
- I/non-vote: 0
Democrat wins
Example 2:
- R: 1000 votes
- D: 1000 votes
- I/non-vote: 1
Election is a tie, with the winner decided by flipping a coin or other game of chance
Example 3:
- R: 1000 votes
- D: 999 votes
- I/non-vote: 2
Republican wins
So long as plurality-take-all is how US elections are run, it makes sense for anybody left-of-center to vote for Biden in the general election.
Getting better policies means not just doing that though, but taking active steps to volunteer for and donate to candidates during primaries, as well as seeking out close house and close senate races in the general election to support Democrats, thereby shifting the balance of power slightly to the left.
More like…
- R: 800 votes
- D: 1200 votes
Republicans win because of gerrymandering and the electoral college.
- R: 300 votes
- D: 1700 votes
Republicans win because they packed the supreme court and the police support a coup.
Like… Vote Biden for the chance to delay the inevitable, but there will be a fascist coup because they don’t have another choice to maintain power. There’s just too much money behind fascism and police almost universally support it. Figuring out how to vote is less important than figuring out how to undermine fascism after it takes over.
The problem is that in about half the country, you don’t know with certainty whether you will be in a competitive location. I certainly didn’t expect to see Georgia be close last time around.
Vote for biden. Anything is better than Trump this year
Not what you want to hear but voting third party or staying home is the opposite of doing something. It might feel like a moral victory but the practical result will be a vote for the right-wing. Third party candidates are not viable until we get rid of First-Past-the-Post, and unfortunately I have no idea what a realistic way to go about changing that is.
Exactly.
Not voting supports the goals of people who want less voting.
And voting third party in a FPTP system for a party that hasn’t worked through the lower levels of political power is effectively not voting.
Exactly. A third party that only puts up a candidate for President every four years is not a serious party but a joke. It takes years of work, starting with local and state offices, building support and good candidates, to be a serious alternative party with a wide base of support and chance to actually win national offices.
Why would the Democrats ever get rid of an electoral system that ensures that they only have to be “not Republican” to win?
deleted by creator
“If Nixon wins again, we’re in real trouble.” He picked up his drink, then saw it was empty and put it down again. “That’s the real issue this time,” he said. “Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”
I nodded. The argument was familiar. I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
. . .
Now, with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing, this year, is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960—and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.
— Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail
Great book to read…one of my favorite parts was giving the homeless guy his press pass on the train and letting him go to town on the free food and booze - in Florida of all places.
If you ever get the chance read some of Hunter’s correspondence books too.
man I love HST but you gotta keep him in context. He didn’t live in a reality recognizable to the average human being. I would not take advice from him on anything except for the acquisition of illicit substances and perhaps motor-cross journalism.
You can vote for biden or you can vote for the guy that promises to use the doj against his enemies or anyone polling better than he is AND promises to deploy the army across the country to “keep the peace” on his first day in office.
Even a 3rd party vote is a vote FOR trump.
What if they impeach him while he’s in office next time? Edit: and he vacates the presidency
What could go wrong? ;3
By this logic, if you don’t donate to Biden you are donating to Trump.
If you don’t phone bank for Biden you are phone banking for Trump.
If you don’t volunteer for Biden’s campaign you’re volunteering for Trump’s campaign.
etc etc
Those are vastly different in resource requirements than filling in a bubble, unless you were already planning on donating, doing a phone bank, of volunteering for another candidate.
Filling in the top circle or the one below it takes you like a second if you are already voting.
So? The same logic still applies. In fact, it’s even worse that you’re working so hard to get Trump elected by not volunteering for Biden or donating to Biden’s campaign! By not doing everything you can to get Biden elected, you’re doing everything you can to get Trump elected.
A year is a really long time. Many things could happen between now and the 2024 election, including the natural deaths of either of the front running candidates.
I don’t wish death on anyone, but damn would it be nice if Biden moved aside. There are so many options people would be excited for. Why do we have to settle with the boring old dude who’s only wish is to maintain the status-quo?
If you actually want to do something other than choose between the two options presented by the two major parties on election day, then your ONLY real option is to get involved in the process at a MUCH deeper level.
That starts with voting in primaries…and voting for lesser elections…but it also involves actually getting involved with one of the two major parties at a local level and doing more. Supporting candidates you like from the ground up, perhaps even running as a candidate for some minor office if there’s not enough competition, attending meetings and otherwise getting genuinely involved with the political process.
Because voting third party in the US on election day has no more meaning than not voting at all. Third parties are not viable in the US system, and never will be. The choice will always be between two at that point, so the only way to improve is to get into it earlier in the process.
If you don’t do that, then all you can do is pick between Republican and Democrat and that’s it. Doing anything else is not participating, it’s pretending to participate. It’s showing up to a game of poker and declaring your 2 aces as blackjack. You’re not playing the game that’s being played if you do that.
Says
then your ONLY real option is to get involved in the process at a MUCH deeper level.
Yet continues focusing on the only tool the capitalists have graced us with to make us feel like we have an impact, as if if we just keep playing by their rules long enough surely one day it’ll change something! Right?
Right…?🙄🤦♀️(no)
Says
Oh, wait, you didn’t say anything. You gave no alternative. You made no suggestions. But hey bud, good emojis. I’ll put them on my fridge.
The american people have accomplished so much during this Biden admin through direct actions. Swaying those in power has more meaning than voting, right now.
It’s an unpopular position, but I think you should vote for the party you believe will do the best job.
The problem with the “a vote for X is really a vote for Y” mentality is that Z then has no motivation to support your interests. More plainly, voting Democrat in the US may well keep Trump out, but Biden will have no reason to support a progressive agenda: he has your vote by default and he knows it.
The Democrats and other “centrist” parties lean on this tactic heavily because it means they never have to worry about doing anything difficult, like getting money out of politics, nationalising health care, or standing up to fossil fuel companies. It’s effectively how the Right captures the Left: just run a more extreme candidate on the Right.
The truth is that 3rd parties are incredibly powerful. Just look at UKIP here in the UK, or the NDP and Bloc Québéquois in Canada. They never win (nationally) but the major parties have to adopt their policies to keep voters from bleeding to these smaller parties. It’s why Canada is more progressive than the US, why every national project there has special exceptions for Québéc, and why the UK left the EU: none of these parties needed to “win” elections to accomplish their goals. Fear of losing votes to them was enough.
The Democrats could be more progressive. They could have run an actual socialist in the last election and won, but they opted for someone who wouldn’t really change anything. The only way they’ll ever run a change maker is if they think you and others like you might choose someone else.
You have to vote for left leaning politicians at lower levels of government and in primaries. If you want to shift someone to the left in today’s system, I think the best move is through a primary challenge.
I like this idea, but it needs to be very broad, primarying key players that represent the old guard. If the people at the top don’t want a socialist to succeed, they’ll sabotage their campaigns.
An American example would be the way the Democrats undermined Sanders’ recent presidential run, or the way “the squad” is treated by the wider party.
A more damning example would be what the Labour party in the UK did to their own leader, Jeremy Corbyn: leaking lies to the press, disrupting funding for their own races, etc. The right wing of the UK’s “left” party basically sabotaged their own party’s campaign 'cause they couldn’t bear to let a socialist win. Now they have a new leader who (surprise surprise) supports nearly every Conservative policy.
Does your city have ranked choice voting? If not, then there is where to focus. Maine already has it at the state level.
I’d recommend flipping the standard view of elections; federal elections are the least important, then state, and local are the most important.
After your state has ranked choice (e.g. if you’re from Maine), then I’d say it’s fair to complain about federal level choices.
It does not.
You can still vote third party candidate for President if you’re in a non-purple blue state. Electoral politicians are a cynical group. It’s appropriate to approach elections with the same cynicism.
There are significant financial and regulatory barriers to participating in elections as a third party. In several states, once they’ve received enough of the vote during an election cycle, they have fewer hurdles to jump to get on the ballot during the next cycle.
Voting for either third party is effective for this tactic. A strong ‘Libertarian’ Party candidate on the ballot means that the vote for Republicans is split between two parties with similar aims. My favorite candidate from this group is Vermin Supreme. A vote for the Green Party does the same for the Democrats, but forces the centrist party to shift their policies to the left to prevent otherwise Green Party voters from going to the third party.
As always, voting is not a long term strategy for change, and should not take the place of direct action, street protest, labor organizing, or human rights activism. Building actual power is the only way to achieve a more egalitarian world.
Thanks, that is very helpful. My post got so much attention even got an admin to comment. :)
Yes, your participation here is appreciated. Thanks for joining our instance.
I thought vermin supreme was so dumb when I was a kid. But now I get it. I think this might have been an important formative moment for a lot of young americans who were invested in politics in… 2012?
how is this related to solarpunk?
Just because you vote for someone doesn’t mean you can’t protest against their actions or take other political action.
You’re choosing the people that you can influence later via political protest and other actions.
