I understand your point of view… I hear that your intention wasnt to provoke or to encourage hatred.
Yet, the very notion that there would be “races” here is err… a very definition of “racism” (ie. who sees things according to supposed “races”)… there is one race, the Human kind… the rest is physical differences.
So somehow, inevitably, making jokes based on these physical differences, on sorting people (even jokingly) according to them (especially implying that there would be a “good” configuration for the, and another that would remind a state that everyone has experience, the last step of a cube where “omg omg i am almost there!!!” feeling so good as something that inevitably needs fixing…) is further re-inforcing discriminatory mechanisms.
Imagine that you would see an image that would make you say “there are 4 skinnies and 4 fatties on that (virtual) picture” -> if your conception of the world, if your way of looking at things is to see “skinnies” on one side, and “fatties” on the other, if you call them that and sort them according to that, well it’s a discrimination based on physicail aspects… isn’t it?
whether it bears a name (“fatism”?) or not doesnt matter so much as how it is a way of looking at people and at the world, that in turns can bring about further simplifications, de-humanization (if someone is “a fatty” or “a xxxx” they often are less than just “a person”), discriminations, and as history showed, often violence…
@anders@JoeBidet If there are no races then there cannot be - by definition - racist jokes.
A lot of Social Justice Fighters actually create a non-existent problem and then fight against it. In my opinion it is not racism to show people, with red hair, black skin, large eyes, short hand, small nose or whatever. If someone looks at these people and see only racism then it may be well possible that the racism is not on the picture but in the head of the said observer.
In my opinion racism is when someone suggest bad things about a group of people (preferably minority group, according to the internet warriors). I do not see racism when there is no negative feelings involved, just by showing, pointing out or joking about any differences.
Some people became way oversensitive, and often for “some imagined others”, not even for themselves. It is sad and disturbing, since it became just another opportunity to raise the stress level claiming preceived problems with others.
discrimination doesnt start with “suggesting bad things about a group of people”, it starts by creating such a group of people, and enforcing it, culturally, politically, socially and at every level (including by jokes, memes, etc.). then at some point in history when society will be tense enough and on the verge of collapse, there will always be someone to suggest that this virtual “group of people” is the cause of… you know… everything bad.
but discrimination starts way way earlier. when making “groups of people” based on things they didn’t chose, and that actually shouldn’t matter so much…
If there are no races then there cannot be - by definition - racist jokes.
Nah, that doesn’t follow from that. The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races. Like how theists believe in the existence of one or more gods, even though we don’t have scientific evidence for that either. And therefore a racist joke can be a joke which implies that existence of multiple human races.
If someone looks at these people and see only racism then it may be well possible that the racism is not on the picture but in the head of the said observer.
I agree that it’s not racism to recognize the physical appearance of people. But we all have racism in our head. We all have prejudices, because we all have pattern-recognizing brains. The goal is simply to not succumb to these most basic thoughts, but make rational judgements instead.
I agree with the rest of your comment. The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism. Where whole structures in society disadvantage certain skin colors, cultures etc. for their whole life. These institutions are obviously made up of individuals, so it’s great, if each individual works on themselves, but we don’t need all individuals to behave without even a single doubt of a flaw.
@Ephera > The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races.
Yet even you don’t think along these lines: the original post have neither stated nor implied anything about “races”. You have seen pattern and thought about races, then shamed yourself and started to project your prejudices to others, and then shame them. But these are your thoughts: a lot of people [those who are not racist in the meaning of the word I believe in] do not think about “races” when talk about black, redhead, yellow, short, whatever people, they usually mean just that: different looking people.
There are very few real “racist” jokes; those you mean usually aren’t in the general (non United States artificial PC-speech) sense.
What I said is: if you believe there are no races then you must not think of those races when seeing posts. And if the post states something about races then you do not need your imagination.
> But we all have racism in our head.
No, that is not true. We all have both associative and grouping/separation logic, that is right, but it does not imply malevolence. Racism requires hate and the feeling of supremacy. Simply recognising differences and applying them to everyday speech isn’t racism, it’s just accepting or using our differences.
> but make rational judgements instead
Oh how I wish! Like instead of PC-speech people would simply stop being malevolent, offensive, oversensitive, judgemental, and would recognise that saying “black person” is not racism and saying “those people who usually commit the crimes you know wink wink” is. [I cannot write good English examples since it’s not my native tongue, I am sure there are racist phrases about black people not containing the word “black”.]
> The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism.
We agree on that. However I believe it is a huge problem when people start ACTING and SPEAKING like they are not racists while they are, and other people start “attacking” (or negatively commenting) people using various words despite not being racists and not being hateful. Like feminists who attack men, like “anti-fascists” who beat people – these have just the opposite effect what originally should have been expected or desired.
PC-speech is bad the same way, and my mind explodes when a black person say “black person” and These People call him “racist”. They bascially want to control how other people speak.
I can understand your point of view, that you feel it can escalate to something worse. I’m not gonna argue with your point of view. None of us will change our opinions so it’ll be wasted energy anyways :)
I find it always stimulating to exchange views in between actors of good faith. I am not trying to change your opinion here, rather sharing my own, and feelings and experience.
My opinion here is not that “it can escalate to something worse”, but rather that it is parf of something already bad, very present and casually ingrained in many people’s head, that needs careful attention to not casually reproduce…
somehow it is already “worse”. ie. everybody born in a racist society, who is not born as an object of this racism is bound to be at least partly racist themselves, and/or part of that problem by being complacent and/or pretending that there is no problem at all… it should not be shameful to acknowledge that, as long as people are in good faith and open to introspection.
Also it takes anyone a while to see such things when they are very much used to it… To look back and say “oops, yeah maybe that was a mistake” in retrospect is part of it… I am not saying you should, it’s just how it happened to me.
I understand your point of view… I hear that your intention wasnt to provoke or to encourage hatred.
Yet, the very notion that there would be “races” here is err… a very definition of “racism” (ie. who sees things according to supposed “races”)… there is one race, the Human kind… the rest is physical differences.
So somehow, inevitably, making jokes based on these physical differences, on sorting people (even jokingly) according to them (especially implying that there would be a “good” configuration for the, and another that would remind a state that everyone has experience, the last step of a cube where “omg omg i am almost there!!!” feeling so good as something that inevitably needs fixing…) is further re-inforcing discriminatory mechanisms.
Imagine that you would see an image that would make you say “there are 4 skinnies and 4 fatties on that (virtual) picture” -> if your conception of the world, if your way of looking at things is to see “skinnies” on one side, and “fatties” on the other, if you call them that and sort them according to that, well it’s a discrimination based on physicail aspects… isn’t it?
whether it bears a name (“fatism”?) or not doesnt matter so much as how it is a way of looking at people and at the world, that in turns can bring about further simplifications, de-humanization (if someone is “a fatty” or “a xxxx” they often are less than just “a person”), discriminations, and as history showed, often violence…
Does it make any sense to you?
@anders @JoeBidet If there are no races then there cannot be - by definition - racist jokes.
A lot of Social Justice Fighters actually create a non-existent problem and then fight against it. In my opinion it is not racism to show people, with red hair, black skin, large eyes, short hand, small nose or whatever. If someone looks at these people and see only racism then it may be well possible that the racism is not on the picture but in the head of the said observer.
In my opinion racism is when someone suggest bad things about a group of people (preferably minority group, according to the internet warriors). I do not see racism when there is no negative feelings involved, just by showing, pointing out or joking about any differences.
Some people became way oversensitive, and often for “some imagined others”, not even for themselves. It is sad and disturbing, since it became just another opportunity to raise the stress level claiming preceived problems with others.
discrimination doesnt start with “suggesting bad things about a group of people”, it starts by creating such a group of people, and enforcing it, culturally, politically, socially and at every level (including by jokes, memes, etc.). then at some point in history when society will be tense enough and on the verge of collapse, there will always be someone to suggest that this virtual “group of people” is the cause of… you know… everything bad.
but discrimination starts way way earlier. when making “groups of people” based on things they didn’t chose, and that actually shouldn’t matter so much…
Nah, that doesn’t follow from that. The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races. Like how theists believe in the existence of one or more gods, even though we don’t have scientific evidence for that either. And therefore a racist joke can be a joke which implies that existence of multiple human races.
I agree that it’s not racism to recognize the physical appearance of people. But we all have racism in our head. We all have prejudices, because we all have pattern-recognizing brains. The goal is simply to not succumb to these most basic thoughts, but make rational judgements instead.
I agree with the rest of your comment. The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism. Where whole structures in society disadvantage certain skin colors, cultures etc. for their whole life. These institutions are obviously made up of individuals, so it’s great, if each individual works on themselves, but we don’t need all individuals to behave without even a single doubt of a flaw.
@Ephera > The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races.
Yet even you don’t think along these lines: the original post have neither stated nor implied anything about “races”. You have seen pattern and thought about races, then shamed yourself and started to project your prejudices to others, and then shame them. But these are your thoughts: a lot of people [those who are not racist in the meaning of the word I believe in] do not think about “races” when talk about black, redhead, yellow, short, whatever people, they usually mean just that: different looking people.
There are very few real “racist” jokes; those you mean usually aren’t in the general (non United States artificial PC-speech) sense.
What I said is: if you believe there are no races then you must not think of those races when seeing posts. And if the post states something about races then you do not need your imagination.
> But we all have racism in our head.
No, that is not true. We all have both associative and grouping/separation logic, that is right, but it does not imply malevolence. Racism requires hate and the feeling of supremacy. Simply recognising differences and applying them to everyday speech isn’t racism, it’s just accepting or using our differences.
> but make rational judgements instead
Oh how I wish! Like instead of PC-speech people would simply stop being malevolent, offensive, oversensitive, judgemental, and would recognise that saying “black person” is not racism and saying “those people who usually commit the crimes you know wink wink” is. [I cannot write good English examples since it’s not my native tongue, I am sure there are racist phrases about black people not containing the word “black”.]
> The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism.
We agree on that. However I believe it is a huge problem when people start ACTING and SPEAKING like they are not racists while they are, and other people start “attacking” (or negatively commenting) people using various words despite not being racists and not being hateful. Like feminists who attack men, like “anti-fascists” who beat people – these have just the opposite effect what originally should have been expected or desired.
PC-speech is bad the same way, and my mind explodes when a black person say “black person” and These People call him “racist”. They bascially want to control how other people speak.
@JoeBidet
I can understand your point of view, that you feel it can escalate to something worse. I’m not gonna argue with your point of view. None of us will change our opinions so it’ll be wasted energy anyways :)
I find it always stimulating to exchange views in between actors of good faith. I am not trying to change your opinion here, rather sharing my own, and feelings and experience.
My opinion here is not that “it can escalate to something worse”, but rather that it is parf of something already bad, very present and casually ingrained in many people’s head, that needs careful attention to not casually reproduce…
somehow it is already “worse”. ie. everybody born in a racist society, who is not born as an object of this racism is bound to be at least partly racist themselves, and/or part of that problem by being complacent and/or pretending that there is no problem at all… it should not be shameful to acknowledge that, as long as people are in good faith and open to introspection.
Also it takes anyone a while to see such things when they are very much used to it… To look back and say “oops, yeah maybe that was a mistake” in retrospect is part of it… I am not saying you should, it’s just how it happened to me.