@anders@JoeBidet If there are no races then there cannot be - by definition - racist jokes.
A lot of Social Justice Fighters actually create a non-existent problem and then fight against it. In my opinion it is not racism to show people, with red hair, black skin, large eyes, short hand, small nose or whatever. If someone looks at these people and see only racism then it may be well possible that the racism is not on the picture but in the head of the said observer.
In my opinion racism is when someone suggest bad things about a group of people (preferably minority group, according to the internet warriors). I do not see racism when there is no negative feelings involved, just by showing, pointing out or joking about any differences.
Some people became way oversensitive, and often for “some imagined others”, not even for themselves. It is sad and disturbing, since it became just another opportunity to raise the stress level claiming preceived problems with others.
discrimination doesnt start with “suggesting bad things about a group of people”, it starts by creating such a group of people, and enforcing it, culturally, politically, socially and at every level (including by jokes, memes, etc.). then at some point in history when society will be tense enough and on the verge of collapse, there will always be someone to suggest that this virtual “group of people” is the cause of… you know… everything bad.
but discrimination starts way way earlier. when making “groups of people” based on things they didn’t chose, and that actually shouldn’t matter so much…
If there are no races then there cannot be - by definition - racist jokes.
Nah, that doesn’t follow from that. The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races. Like how theists believe in the existence of one or more gods, even though we don’t have scientific evidence for that either. And therefore a racist joke can be a joke which implies that existence of multiple human races.
If someone looks at these people and see only racism then it may be well possible that the racism is not on the picture but in the head of the said observer.
I agree that it’s not racism to recognize the physical appearance of people. But we all have racism in our head. We all have prejudices, because we all have pattern-recognizing brains. The goal is simply to not succumb to these most basic thoughts, but make rational judgements instead.
I agree with the rest of your comment. The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism. Where whole structures in society disadvantage certain skin colors, cultures etc. for their whole life. These institutions are obviously made up of individuals, so it’s great, if each individual works on themselves, but we don’t need all individuals to behave without even a single doubt of a flaw.
@Ephera > The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races.
Yet even you don’t think along these lines: the original post have neither stated nor implied anything about “races”. You have seen pattern and thought about races, then shamed yourself and started to project your prejudices to others, and then shame them. But these are your thoughts: a lot of people [those who are not racist in the meaning of the word I believe in] do not think about “races” when talk about black, redhead, yellow, short, whatever people, they usually mean just that: different looking people.
There are very few real “racist” jokes; those you mean usually aren’t in the general (non United States artificial PC-speech) sense.
What I said is: if you believe there are no races then you must not think of those races when seeing posts. And if the post states something about races then you do not need your imagination.
> But we all have racism in our head.
No, that is not true. We all have both associative and grouping/separation logic, that is right, but it does not imply malevolence. Racism requires hate and the feeling of supremacy. Simply recognising differences and applying them to everyday speech isn’t racism, it’s just accepting or using our differences.
> but make rational judgements instead
Oh how I wish! Like instead of PC-speech people would simply stop being malevolent, offensive, oversensitive, judgemental, and would recognise that saying “black person” is not racism and saying “those people who usually commit the crimes you know wink wink” is. [I cannot write good English examples since it’s not my native tongue, I am sure there are racist phrases about black people not containing the word “black”.]
> The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism.
We agree on that. However I believe it is a huge problem when people start ACTING and SPEAKING like they are not racists while they are, and other people start “attacking” (or negatively commenting) people using various words despite not being racists and not being hateful. Like feminists who attack men, like “anti-fascists” who beat people – these have just the opposite effect what originally should have been expected or desired.
PC-speech is bad the same way, and my mind explodes when a black person say “black person” and These People call him “racist”. They bascially want to control how other people speak.
@anders @JoeBidet If there are no races then there cannot be - by definition - racist jokes.
A lot of Social Justice Fighters actually create a non-existent problem and then fight against it. In my opinion it is not racism to show people, with red hair, black skin, large eyes, short hand, small nose or whatever. If someone looks at these people and see only racism then it may be well possible that the racism is not on the picture but in the head of the said observer.
In my opinion racism is when someone suggest bad things about a group of people (preferably minority group, according to the internet warriors). I do not see racism when there is no negative feelings involved, just by showing, pointing out or joking about any differences.
Some people became way oversensitive, and often for “some imagined others”, not even for themselves. It is sad and disturbing, since it became just another opportunity to raise the stress level claiming preceived problems with others.
discrimination doesnt start with “suggesting bad things about a group of people”, it starts by creating such a group of people, and enforcing it, culturally, politically, socially and at every level (including by jokes, memes, etc.). then at some point in history when society will be tense enough and on the verge of collapse, there will always be someone to suggest that this virtual “group of people” is the cause of… you know… everything bad.
but discrimination starts way way earlier. when making “groups of people” based on things they didn’t chose, and that actually shouldn’t matter so much…
Nah, that doesn’t follow from that. The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races. Like how theists believe in the existence of one or more gods, even though we don’t have scientific evidence for that either. And therefore a racist joke can be a joke which implies that existence of multiple human races.
I agree that it’s not racism to recognize the physical appearance of people. But we all have racism in our head. We all have prejudices, because we all have pattern-recognizing brains. The goal is simply to not succumb to these most basic thoughts, but make rational judgements instead.
I agree with the rest of your comment. The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism. Where whole structures in society disadvantage certain skin colors, cultures etc. for their whole life. These institutions are obviously made up of individuals, so it’s great, if each individual works on themselves, but we don’t need all individuals to behave without even a single doubt of a flaw.
@Ephera > The definition of “racist” can be that racists believe in humanity consisting out of different races.
Yet even you don’t think along these lines: the original post have neither stated nor implied anything about “races”. You have seen pattern and thought about races, then shamed yourself and started to project your prejudices to others, and then shame them. But these are your thoughts: a lot of people [those who are not racist in the meaning of the word I believe in] do not think about “races” when talk about black, redhead, yellow, short, whatever people, they usually mean just that: different looking people.
There are very few real “racist” jokes; those you mean usually aren’t in the general (non United States artificial PC-speech) sense.
What I said is: if you believe there are no races then you must not think of those races when seeing posts. And if the post states something about races then you do not need your imagination.
> But we all have racism in our head.
No, that is not true. We all have both associative and grouping/separation logic, that is right, but it does not imply malevolence. Racism requires hate and the feeling of supremacy. Simply recognising differences and applying them to everyday speech isn’t racism, it’s just accepting or using our differences.
> but make rational judgements instead
Oh how I wish! Like instead of PC-speech people would simply stop being malevolent, offensive, oversensitive, judgemental, and would recognise that saying “black person” is not racism and saying “those people who usually commit the crimes you know wink wink” is. [I cannot write good English examples since it’s not my native tongue, I am sure there are racist phrases about black people not containing the word “black”.]
> The truly problematic aspect of racism is institutional racism.
We agree on that. However I believe it is a huge problem when people start ACTING and SPEAKING like they are not racists while they are, and other people start “attacking” (or negatively commenting) people using various words despite not being racists and not being hateful. Like feminists who attack men, like “anti-fascists” who beat people – these have just the opposite effect what originally should have been expected or desired.
PC-speech is bad the same way, and my mind explodes when a black person say “black person” and These People call him “racist”. They bascially want to control how other people speak.