• Kichae
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      907 months ago

      Not explicitly, maybe, but implicitly, absolutely, and in multiple ways:

      • Supporting the system that creates one over the other
      • Having ‘bootstrap’ attitudes about the poor
      • Worrying about property value over utilization
      • Complaining about the homeless rather than the lack of action on housing
      • Voting against people who run on public housing

      In so, so many ways, people say they prefer the latter over the former. Usually just with the caveat that the homeless people also be invisible.

        • Neuromancer
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          137 months ago

          I think a simple law that if there is a building, it must be in a repaired state.

          In St. Louis a person opened large portions of the city where they’ve let the holes decay.

          He should have to keep them in a proper upkeep or tear them down.

          • AgentOrangesicle
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            37 months ago

            Fuck anyone that uses money to buy things and let them rot. That’s a purposefully broad statement.

            • Neuromancer
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              37 months ago

              I agree. I wish I could find an article on this guy but he is just hoarding and letting it rot. Has something to do with taxes.

      • Franzia
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        137 months ago

        I wonder who is doing this voting? Oh, it’s people who live in the areas we can’t afford to live in. And capitalists add lobbying power to those voters selfish interests.

    • @ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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      697 months ago

      In the United States at least, your local government’s public hearings for new housing developments kinda begs to differ.

      People will demand the homeless be eliminated from their area while simultaneously opposing development of housing or shelters for the homeless in their area.

      So maybe you’re right though: they don’t hate the apartments more, they simply can’t make up their mind on which they hate more.

      • BarqsHasBite
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        137 months ago

        I agree but want to say everyone jumps to homeless. There are a ton of normal people that are suffering from high rent, lack of options, etc. We need to think about way more than homeless.

          • BarqsHasBite
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            7 months ago

            Most people think homeless as jobless, etc. But when we have people with entirely ok jobs that can’t afford rent (see people living in their cars), addressing basic normal housing addresses both for a startling amount.

          • I'm back on my BS 🤪
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            127 months ago

            Aside from zoning laws, there’s the lack of a unified federal intervention. This prevents any one area from addressing the local homeless issue because any area that takes steps to address it will consequently absorb more homeless individuals from other places in the country. For example, if a city in California develops a program to house any homeless individuals, then homeless individuals from other cities and states will be more likely to go to said city to get housed. Even worse, there are states that would actually pay for their transportation. What would happen is that either the city would have to solve a much larger homeless problem as new homeless move into town, or the initial wave of homeless people will be house while the new arrivals and homeless will stay homeless, leaving a continued homeless problem.

      • @BB69@lemmy.world
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        -67 months ago

        I think it’s more so that people don’t want an apartment complex built in their backyard, not that they are opposed to them being built in an area where there is proper infrastructure

        • @instamat@lemmy.world
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          37 months ago

          NIMBY!!

          Where do you place the proper infrastructure then? It’s always going to be in someone’s “back yard” as you put it.

          • @BB69@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Well there’s considerable difference between an apartment complex in a suburb not designed for heavy traffic and less developed areas where there’s room for expansion for infrastructure.

            We can’t expand roads in my area, either for an extra lane (which I know is a sin) or for buses because it would be right up on houses at that point.

            However, just a few miles down the road on the main drag, there’s undeveloped land that would be perfect. Build it there.

            When I say “backyard” I mean literally in your backyard. Instead of name calling and downvoting, have a fucking conversation and ask in a respectful manner what somebody means. Stop being a douche because you automatically assume somebody who thinks slightly differently than you is wrong.

            • @SpiderShoeCult@sopuli.xyz
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              37 months ago

              Well articulated. I’m not from the US, but I’ve seen housing developments go sideways when they built four 10-story blocks (not in somebody’s back yard, but in an area without proper infrastructure) and after 1000ish people had moved in there were 1 hour long queues just to get out of the complex because there was only one road with one lane per direction. And the only bus stop was not really reliable.

              This was not built in the middle of the city because of land availability (and huge prices even if there was land available - you’re near the metro and tram and a bus stop? pay 50% more. oh, you’re near a park too? pay 50% more on top of that). Should we just tear down old buildings in low density areas in the city to make room for big blocks? Some might be worth tearing down because of age and overall condition, but good luck getting people to move out.

            • @instamat@lemmy.world
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              -27 months ago

              lmao make up your mind

              do you want to have a conversation without name calling? Then leave out the name calling or kindly get fucked

              • @BB69@lemmy.world
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                07 months ago

                Tired of being nice. I do it all the time and it’s never returned in kind.

                Lemmy users act like this is a different place, that it’s a more wholesome internet, what a joke. It’s as bad as anywhere else.

                • @instamat@lemmy.world
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                  07 months ago

                  I wasn’t being mean spirited with my original comment, it was a legitimate question. Whenever I hear people say something like “I don’t want that!” I like to find out why. It’s just curiosity. Sorry if it came across mean.

    • BarqsHasBite
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      77 months ago

      It’s not far off what many think. Many think apartments are, oh so many adjectives, dirty, poor, unsanitary, inhumane, cruel, unusual, etc.

        • BarqsHasBite
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          7 months ago

          Go to/watch any planning or proposal meeting and watch the pearl clutching and nimbyism. I think you know this but you want to demand “studies” instead of engaging in good faith.

          • @Fosheze@lemmy.world
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            47 months ago

            you want to demand “studies” instead of engaging in good faith.

            Said the ocean gate sub captain.

            • BarqsHasBite
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              17 months ago

              Second reply from user nutandcross for posterity;

              I went to a planning meeting in my neighborhood and it wasn’t like that at all. Why did you lie about that?

              Also, why don’t you value scientific research and evidence? Because they don’t corroborate your perverted worldview?

              I think this is one of those communists who can’t be bothered to actually read or live by anything. The meeting was full of shouting communists, whose side I’m on, regarding a city golf course and it’s removal. You were way off. Why did you act like you knew what was going to happen? I’m not mad I’m just confused like, did you really think it was going to be like how you prejudged it or are you towing the disinformation line?

              This is why it’s never good to engage with adolescents as someone with an intellectual conscience, and not just some wishful-idea-drunk autist that can’t tell human faces apart.

            • BarqsHasBite
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              17 months ago

              This is the response from user nutandcross for posterity, read to the end:

              “instead of engaging in good faith”

              So facts and good faith ethics are mutually exclusive?

              I just got back from a planning meeting and it was nothing like how you said it would be. Why would you lie to me about that?

              Why are you just constantly just lying to people from your room on the Internet? It’s it because when you die, you’ll just vanish and leave a bodily mess because you never became anything, never understood what it meant to be a human? Because you’ve turned yourself over to bad ideas cause your own were worse and now you’re some pimpled Putin puppet.

              Communism, fascism, Jordan Peterson, Trumpist demagogues thrive on weak 14-year-old minds hungry to assert their powerful opinion on something they’ve have no actual experience with

              I urge you to visit these Utopias, maybe move there. There you won’t be called parasite, you will experience the insouciant freedom of the lodged and suckling tick. Maybe the reason you feel so bad is that you don’t belong in a free nation because you’re too chickenshit to exist on your own merit.

              They also recruit and weaponize mentally vulnerable people like young autistic men (4chan, Bannon, cp forums), here’s just a couple I’m sure you can can find commie versions of these stories you can stomach (you can use these to strengthen your good faith arguments):

              https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2017/07/18/steve-bannon-learned-harness-troll-army-world-warcraft/489713001/

              https://www.npr.org/2018/11/21/669509554/in-china-the-communist-partys-latest-unlikely-target-young-marxists

              You’re all George Santos wannabes in five years, too. Fucking garbage. My family didn’t fight and die so a bunch of little kids could run around with Hitler mustaches telling me which way to think is the correct way to think according to the correct men. Everyone can see how sweaty and dangerous and anti-social utopian philosophies really are except the fevered adherent who always ends up dead or in a cell. You’d shit your pants in a fight.

    • @minorninth@lemmy.world
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      47 months ago

      Sure they do. Look at all of the posts from my neighbors on Facebook and Nextdoor every time a developer tries to build an apartment building instead of a single family home in our neighborhood.

    • @dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      17 months ago

      We’re not building homes, we’re not focussing on density. But apparently our elected officials have no problem letting people set up shanty towns. Where do you think the priorities lay?

      • @BB69@lemmy.world
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        17 months ago

        What do you mean we’re not building homes? I have plenty of homes and apartments being built in my city that cater to lots of strata of incomes.

  • Queen HawlSera
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    1327 months ago

    The world will never recover until poverty is seen not as a character flaw, but as a failure of society itself to provide for the most vulnerable.

  • @spread@programming.dev
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    787 months ago

    I hate how when there is any picture of Soviet blocks it’s always shot in autumn or winter when it’s overcast. I live in an ex Soviet country and when these bad boys are maintained they can outperform new apartments, be it in functionality, amenities or price.

    • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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      127 months ago

      always shot in autumn or winter when it’s overcast.

      To me this adds a lot to the charm. I’d love to live there (at least for some time)!

    • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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      -127 months ago

      I am simply not believing that 50 year old apartment blocks are outperforming new ones by any metric.

      I’m glad you’re happy and there are plenty of 100+ year old homes in my country that are just fine but they are not outperforming anything.

        • @winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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          27 months ago

          Yeah i was recently looking for someone to work on windows and finding someone who does work in the traditional way is not easy. They’re still out there, but for every one of them there’s ten hack shops using minimum wage labor for everything. Even then, the real good techniques just seem like lost technology. They didn’t get passed down to our generation.

        • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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          -77 months ago

          Standards have improved 10 fold, I moved from a house built 70 years ago to a new build. It is completely different, air tight, less moisture, more efficient heating, permanent hot water, triple glazed windows. Literally everything is more secure and improved. There is nothing an old house can do a new one can’t.

            • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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              17 months ago

              Heating is an accessory? The new tech associated with central heating compared to 50 years ago is night and day. The building materials have changed, the regulations have changed. Houses have better insulation, soundproofing, fire guarding, plumbing, electrical circuitry like how is this even a discussion.

                • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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                  07 months ago

                  Oh we don’t have timber framed housing here, my house is concrete and the 50 year old house I was in, probably closer 100, was a stone cottage.

                  The new house has exactly those things you listed. I’m fairly certain they have to be in all new builds where I am. Though the solar is optional, we have a heat pump instead.

                • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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                  07 months ago

                  That’s a load of nonsense, experienced builder or not. Heating is part of building a house just like the other plumbing, electrical and joinery work.

          • @uis@lemmy.world
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            17 months ago

            air tight, less moisture, more efficient heating, permanent hot water, triple glazed windows.

            And why “I moved from unmaintained house” is argument against old housing? I have all those things in 50 years old house.

            • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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              17 months ago

              So you gave your old building a retrofit with new technologies… more in line with today’s standards and have seen results more in line with today’s standards.

              What is your argument here?

              • @uis@lemmy.world
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                17 months ago

                So you gave your old building a retrofit with new technologies… more in line with today’s standards and have seen results more in line with today’s standards.

                So you understand this!

                • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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                  17 months ago

                  So modern building standards, materials, technologies and completed products are better than old?

                  I don’t see many people taking out the cavity insulation to make their homes more old style.

      • CyclohexaneM
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        207 months ago

        Even communism aside, this is actually not uncommon. One of the advances we’ve made in construction is knowing how to save even more money, making the right sacrifices and meeting the minimum bars of code compliance, to maximize our margins.

        • @PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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          -137 months ago

          I don’t know how you say this unironically as criticism. That’s arguably one of the biggest advantages people claim capitalism has: managing finite resources. It’s not a good thing to waste manpower and resources for no real gain.

          • @crispy_kilt@feddit.de
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            7 months ago

            for no real gain

            What gain? More profits for the ultra rich? A dying planet?

            People living in comfortable apartments is no real gain in capitalism because it means less ROI. But it is a huge gain to everyone’s quality of life if they can live comfortably.

            Market mechanisms are very powerful in optimising resource allocation - but they aren’t optimising for maximum quality of life, they’re optimising for maximum ROI. Which lands in the pockets of the ultra rich, which then allocate the accumulated capital in only those endeavours providing maximum ROI, and the cycle goes on and on until so much wealth is extracted from society that the middle class collapses and the planet dies - and the ultra rich with them, for they depend upon the plebes to work for them in order to have an ultra rich lifestyle in the first place.

            • @PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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              -27 months ago

              I mean if we were trying to house people we should be aiming for inexpensive and non-wasteful building choices, shouldn’t we? When we’re handling basic human needs we send boats full of rice and beans, not a bunch of badass chefs.

                • @PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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                  -57 months ago

                  I mean it’s kind of a scarcity thing. Resources aren’t infinite. I have no problem with letting people have nice things and would certainly want minimums to be pretty decent, but when you’re getting people off the street or something then efficiency means lives saved.

              • @winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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                27 months ago

                We have all the money in the world. We have more than enough homes to house people, right now. We have an abundance of housing, of resources to build more housing, of everything. What we do not have is a distribution that allows people who need housing to get it. Instead we have a literal Spiders Georg situation where a tiny fraction of the country each own hundreds of homes they don’t live in or even have any intention of living in. This situation is deranged.

                • @PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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                  -17 months ago

                  Alright, then show the numbers. Let’s ignore that seizing all that property will go super well. I know, you want people that own more than one house dead, so even include it as double the free housing. Figure out how much it costs to upkeep rental properties. Double it, maybe more, for people that literally don’t give a fuck about it. Add costs for policing the shit.

                  Seizure won’t fix it.

          • CyclohexaneM
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            97 months ago

            They literally sacrificed quality and safety to maximize profits and you call that good? Come on… You’re being too biased.

          • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥
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            67 months ago

            That’s arguably one of the biggest advantages people claim capitalism has: managing finite resources

            Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

          • @winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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            37 months ago

            An apartment complex went up outside my work and it’s made of wood. That’s against fire safety code but they found some creative work arounds to convince the inspectors it was legal. (And of course the inspections are all toadies who have been put in place to rubber stamp developer plans.) Very efficient until it burns down and kills everyone inside.

          • @uis@lemmy.world
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            27 months ago

            That’s arguably one of the biggest advantages people claim capitalism has: managing finite resources.

            No, it’s not capitalism, this is definition of economy itself. Which by the way includes communism.

            • @PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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              17 months ago

              Por que no los dos?

              It’s something capitalists claim. Communism claims to distribute things equitably and they have to fight over efficiency. Capitalism is the opposite.

              • @uis@lemmy.world
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                17 months ago

                Communism claims to distribute things equitably

                No, communism claims to distribute things fair.

                they have to fight over efficiency.

                Same does any other economic system, but define efficiency differently.

      • @ahnesampo@sopuli.xyz
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        207 months ago

        Here in Finland a lot of new apartment blocks have very small apartments. Three rooms and a kitchen crammed into 60 m2 (650 sq ft) are not uncommon. That means bedrooms that can fit a double bed and nothing else, and kitchens built into the side of the living room. Older blocks by contrast have much more spacious apartments. The condo I bought in a building built in the 1970s is three rooms and kitchen in 80 m2 (860 sq ft). The condo goes through the building, so windows on two sides. The kitchen is its own separate space. Bathroom and toilet are two separate rooms. (The building is not a proper commie block, though. Or “Soviet cube” as they’re called in Finnish. We were never Soviet, but we took some inspiration from their cheap building styles.)

      • @MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Tons of large buildings are older than you’d think. Hell, a lot of large buildings don’t even get serious structural inspections until they’re 40+ years old!

        It was one of many contributing factors to the Champlain Towers South building collapsing in the US in Florida. No communism or Soviet corner cutting. Just good ol’ fashioned American ineptitude. That building was undergoing some work so they could raise prices. It wasn’t a low class building nor did many people think it was too old to invest in.

        What OP said is extremely likely to be true: Those buildings are competative.

      • @zephyreks@programming.dev
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        77 months ago

        It’s less a matter of technical capability and more one of cost. It’s not like people didn’t know how to build good, efficient homes before. It was just expensive.

        • @Squizzy@lemmy.world
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          17 months ago

          We have absolutely made strides in material technologies for construction over the last 50 years. Take asbestos for example.

          • @zephyreks@programming.dev
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            17 months ago

            Asbestos has some pretty insane properties, though. Just a shame it causes cancer when disturbed and inhaled.

            As a building material? What’s even better than asbestos in terms of the trifecta of sound/heat isolation, bulk, melting point, and structural soundness? Aerogel?

  • LinkOpensChest.wav
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    667 months ago

    I’d gladly live in one of those apartments in the first picture if it meant that everyone could have a home

    • Semi-Hemi-Demigod
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      257 months ago

      I’d gladly walk my ass out to the wilderness rather than live in an apartment block, but at least then there’d be an extra spot.

      • LinkOpensChest.wav
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        177 months ago

        The nice thing is in an anarchist society you could do just that, and no one would stop you

        I’d personally prefer to be surrounded by people

        • Semi-Hemi-Demigod
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          7 months ago

          Which is why I’m an anarchist. Pretty much every other system would force me to attempt to be happy in an apartment block, or waste huge amounts of resources creating suburbs that are still too goddamn crowded for me

          • @trailing9
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            97 months ago

            I would like to share your attitude but fear the consequences when millions seek a place in the wilderness. What do you do when you arrive and your neighbor asks you to move on because he wants to be more alone?

            • Semi-Hemi-Demigod
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              57 months ago

              I want to be more alone too, so I’d probably not get to the point where I was close enough to have them tell me to go away.

              However, most people probably wouldn’t like the actual wilderness. They want a big country house somewhere and when they find out they need to build it themselves they’ll go back to the apartment blocks.

              One reason I’m a fan of making cities less objectively terrible is that more people will live in them and be even further away from my hovel.

      • LinkOpensChest.wav
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        27 months ago

        You believe that housing is not a basic human right, yet you say to me, “bruh…”

        Just gonna pre-emptively block your bootlicking ass

      • HatchetHaro
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        207 months ago

        “Land-usage” is such a narrow-minded way to think about the implicit wants and needs of society. You sound like you’ve never been to actual cities, or never got your head far enough out of your arse to actually experience one.

        North American suburban sprawl already proves that “enough land for us all to live comfortably” is a terrible way to live sociable lives and drains the economy due to massive swathes of those lands being used for roads and the maintenance of said roads.

        I implore you to take a trip to almost any European city, and see for yourself what actual “comfortable living” for most people looks like.

        • AgentOrangesicle
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          -17 months ago

          …Why did you reinterpret the premise of their statement into something entirely different and then attack them for it?

          I’m not saying your interpretation is wrong, but that was mean.

        • @killeronthecorner@lemmy.world
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          -17 months ago

          I’ve lived in cities my whole life, which paints a pretty broad picture of you doesn’t it? Couldn’t even get the premise of your own bullshit comment right.