First of all, i know Infrared isnt popular with many of you here, and thats ok. However i think this interview will be valuable to many of you, even if you dont like Infrared.
For those who dont know, Professor Grover Furr is a historian who has written many books debunking so called “stalinist crimes”. He investigated extensively topics such as the Holodomor, the Great Purges, Khrushchevs Secret Speech in 1956, the deportations of ethnic minorities during WW2, the Katyn Massacre and many more. These topics are discussed here.
Enjoy!
I am perfectly calm, im not punching anything, but thanks for asking. What caricature are you talking about? What of what i said is false? You claimed that Maupin and Haz are american exceptionalists, something completely false. They dont even consider the USA to be a nation, so i have no idea how you could make that allegation if not by listening to what certain lib debate bros say about them, instead of listening to what they actually have to say. Whether you agree with them or not, the only way to know what their political opinions are is by listening to what they say. I dont even agree with them on everything, there are many things i disagree with them, but the amount of lies about them floating in online leftist spaces is absurd. That they are fascists, that they are nazbols, that they are american nationalists/chauvinists. Complete bs! If you listen to Caleb talk, all he ever says is that he wants to see an America that cooperates with the rest of the world as equals, instead of imposing itself as the imperialist “world police”. How you can construct that as “american exceptionalism” is beyond me. Frankly if you hear Caleb talk you will hear very few things that people here disagree with, yet he is portrayed as if he were on the other side of the political spectrum!
Watching reactionaries stream from their bedrooms doesn’t really appeal to me. I have limited time off work and have better uses for it. I read marxist lit in my free time, instead.
Mmmm okay? When did i say you have to watch them or like them? All i said is dont lie about them, which you are doing right now by saying they are “reactionary”. I dont know how it is in America, but reactionaries here dont support China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, DPRK, etc against US imperialism, in fact they do the opposite. If you dont have time or interest to learn what they actually believe, then just say “i dont know anything about them so i dont have an opinion on them”. Its simple.
Okay, I will admit, I had a good laugh. He really is not worth my time. Pure aesthetics. 🤣
“aesthetics” wow, just wow, literally using the same argument proimperialists use, that “tankies are just fascists with communist aesthetics”. Just wow, i really didnt think you would say that. Very disappointing. And ofc 1 tweet which is clearly a joke from 1 dude is supposed to mark all “patsocs”. Great marxist analysis, it really shows all the theory youve read.
He really does abuse leftist aesthetics fairly often. Example is when he told luna oi to go back to her white master referencing her white boyfriend. When he was suspended from Twitch because of bad empanada he said something I can’t remember exactly. It was about accusing groveling to corporations. This was when BE complained to twitch that he was threatening violence, which was a troll move but it’s again an example of haz abusing leftist language.
Haz is also against indigenous peoples having sovereignty of America. Uses cheap arguments like “it alienates the american working class” or “Land Back ™ is funded by corporations” as veils for american exceptionalism.
Worst thing is I don’t want to know this kind of stuff yet to some extent I have to because some people feel the pathological need to defend YouTube grifters who are in it for nothing but the grift. There is no movement of the “american working class” that he is shepherding. All of their presence is on youtube twitter and twitch.
First paragraph is completely irrelevant, pure youtuber drama which i have no interest in. I follow Infrared, LunaOi and BadEmpanada, i believe they all have interesting insights to offer into marxism leninism and their respective perspectives on it, while i also disagree with all of them in certain things. I follow none of them blindly, as noone should. I dont care whether they hate each other to death or x was mean to y, thats drama which serves no purpose other than getting ad revenue from clicks. Im interested in socialism, not in youtuber drama.
I personally agree with that, i support land back and i think Haz is mistaken on that. But that doesnt make him an american exceptionalist or a fascist.
I have 0 “pathological need” to defend anyone, im not any youtubers lawyer. However i do take issue with trying to portray fellow comrades as fascists, because this a tactic regularly used by the proimperialists. “Oh, DPRK doesnt have pride parades? That means they are fascist!” No. Someone having incorrect reactionary views on specific social issues doesnt make them a fascist or a nazbol. Homophobia isnt fascism. The Soviet Union was openly homophobic for all its existence. It was wrong, but that doesnt make them fascist and we still support and praise the USSR. Fascism is the Holocaust. Thats fascism, not having mildly conservative social views.
I never claimed Haz is “shepherding” anything. You again show that you dont listen to what i say, you are just repeating your internalized “rebuttals” to this particular individual and his fanbase. Im from Spain, i have 0 interest in taking sides in factionalist infighting between the american ML left. All i did was share an interesting interview with a popular ML figure (Grover Furr), yet you all just dogpiled on me because you disliked the dude who made the interview. This is way closer to american exceptionalism than anything ive ever heard Haz say, pretending that the whole world should take sides in your niche american leftist infighting.
Sure my bad then
Fair enough. Thank you for understanding. Also thank you for not banning me. On the old GenZedong mods were much less tolerant with these discussions.
You’re defending this dude awful hard for him to not be that important or of much importance to you personally. Also strawmanning the hell out of anyone who disagrees with you.
Maybe I’m into Juche but I don’t need a screaming gamerbro to tell me that. Maybe I think Azov are nazis and I don’t need to agree with a guy who attracts misogynistic and transphobic followers like flies via his sneaky little dogwhistles. He will only say that lgbt and women’s rights are not important, but his followers regularly say the quiet part out loud that they find us to be a burden on whatever white guy shit they think the “real” movement needs to be about and he says nothing in our defense. Maybe I think internationalism requires a bit of empathy with people who’ve been fighting imperialism for hundreds of years and don’t think it’s necessary to stan powerful neolibs to do that.
You know there are people of color, lgbt people, and people formerly colonized by the Spanish Empire living in Spain, right? Do you think wanting them to be part of the movement is American idpol? Do they need to stay quiet and not talk too loud about how the empire fucked them? See, I can make strawmen too.
Haz is a debatebro and his rhetorical style and audience focus creates debatebros. He’s just Vaush but with a red star on his hat, and people who like him sound like Vaushites to anyone not invested in debatebro culture.
Okay genius, i will repeat it one last time, in all caps, so maybe you will understand this time.
I SUPPORT LAND BACK, I DISAGREE WITH HAZ ON THIS AND BELIEVE HE IS MISTAKEN. HOWEVER THAT DOESNT MAKE HAZ A FASCIST NOR AN AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALIST.
Do you understand what im saying now? Or do i have to repeat it in Comic Sans?
I agree, he uses alt right dogwhistles, and thats wrong, i disagree with that. But that doesnt make him a fascist. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation and its leader Gennady Zyuganov also often use alt right rhethoric like “globalists” “degenerates” and so on. Does this now mean that the 2nd biggest party in Russia, the Communist Party, is now a fascist party and is our enemy? Ofc not. You can disagree with it but still recognize they are comrades. You are free to dislike or hate Infrared, despite this caricature you made of me in your mind, im not Infrareds lawyer, i have no interest in defending any of their political positions. All im saying is hes not a fascist. I will repeat it again.
HOMOPHOBIA IS NOT FASCISM. FASCISM IS THE HOLOCAUST.
Feel free to hate him for being homophobic, but hes not a fascist. Thats all im saying.