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I really want to remember the name of a program/skit from Germany, where a man complains about nazi soldiers putting up a nazi poster outside his house’s wall, then a Gestapo officer comes along, “Why are you calling them nazis? Just because you disagree doesn’t mean they’re nazis”"
Yes! Thank you!
Removed by mod
Fuck Nazis! Anyone who waves a flag with a Swastika (not the Gammadion Cross), uses Aryan symbols and salutes like a fucking Nazi is a fucking Nazi. I’m just waiting for the MAGA asswipes to force the US military to goose step during parades with Jack Boots.
I do think it’s important to try to respectfully explain why what somebody is saying is an issue but only when you have the energy.
I know from some people I’ve spoken with that they have no idea about the consequences of some things they (used to) agree with. If I had just called them Nazis they would have just felt disrespected and probably not thought about why people might call them that.
but only when you have the energy.
Thank you for this, because I don’t have more than to post fuck Nazis
Also because of the audience. This has probably the overall bigger impact on opinions than wether you can change that one person’s mind. So even if you’re sure that guy is lost, providing better alternatives is still worthwhile.
Them feeling disrespected is correct, though.
There is some merit to this point. People are emotional creatures first, and sometimes exclusively. It often doesn’t matter if you’re right if the other people feels bad about it.
This is a really immature, unsophisticated, way to engage with the world, but it’s the reality for a lot of people. Honestly, it happens to all of us sometimes. Some people seem to rarely rise above the gutfeel level, though.
It does kind of suck that we have to cater to the most simplistic ways of engaging with the world, because if we don’t they’ll form a far right party and do some genoide.
Yeah, no.
In about as progressive as can be, but I’m not in favor of every dumb idea just because “it’s a left idea”. We live in the real world too, yet I’ve been called a Nazi multiple times for not fully agreeing with every tiny detail.
It’s that exact attitude that had been pushing many people to the right, please stop doing that.
I’m against everything trump, pretty much everything what the Republican party has to offer, I can even see that Luigi has a good point that needs addressing, but at the same time I would like space to discuss items, or plain disagree with something. This space is omething that has disappeared since long time ago. I get it, but this is what trump wanted to begin with, create a “you’re with ur or against us” atmosphere.
You have to be able to disagree with certain individual things or if not you’re just in yet another fascist system.
Let the down votes come. Calls for being reasonable are very unpopular these days
anticommunist
I’m as progressive as can be!
Every single time.
You‘re a hero
Thank you for doing that legwork.
Bye nazi scum
Thank you. Nobody who is actually progressive becomes a nazi because someone was mean to them on the internet. That’s just fascist BS to get others to “be reasonable”.
There is currently a massive hate campaign on reddit against the owner of the “Optimists Unite” subreddit because it got flooded with anti-trump posts. It blew up when the owner said that he was going to clean up the subreddit and enforce rules so that it’s not just another political rage sub. From there literally tens of thousands of people have spread the rumor that this person is a nazi, that they’re right-wing and Trump supporter, etc. None of it had any real evidence other than a screenshot where he said he was going to “take the subreddit back” and somehow people took that to mean purging leftist politics entirely.
I have no dogs in the fight, I’m an outspoken leftist but I certainly don’t feel optimistic nor do I care what happens to the subreddit. But holy shit, the fervor and hate that people level against someone who just wants to do something specific and goal-oriented. The bots that jump into these bandwagons and hype up the emotions even more are making things even worse.
This was just one example that had high visibility, but you can imagine how many smaller-scale dramas burn out this way where someone faces mob wrath for just not wanting to engage in the same political binary.
To be clear, I think we should ALL engage in the political binary and fix the fucking thing, but I also wouldn’t hold a gun to anyone’s head and force them to wear a certain uniform or adhere to a specific narrative.
Human tribalism is very dangerous on either side. It’s far more dangerous on the right, but oftentimes even the best intentions just become fascism again when nobody is on-guard and careful how much power we’re giving a storyline. For further reading, just read any history books about communism and revolutions. There is a hard-wired system in human beings where we form societies based around shared narratives, and this force helped us survive millions of years and form groups in adverse conditions, but those human qualities are not adapted to a very complicated, digital world where we can all see and share ideas across the globe in an instant.
Being a Nazi is tribalism.
Being anti-Nazi is being anti-tribalism.
Absolutely everyone is welcome to be anti-Nazi, and we absolutely should all unite together as humanity in being anti-Nazi.
Yes, I agree but it’s not really what I’m talking about. We just all need to take care to keep our platform healthy and on the right track lest we lose ground because we’re blind to nuance. A very common and human risk that has to be acknowledged so this doesn’t become just another equally performative, insufferable campaign that loses public support. It’s more important than ever right now as the tide of media is shifting right.
I don’t see any need for nuance in being anti-Nazi.
well yeah, but you also don’t want to fall into the stereotype that the right always throws around and actually label people nazis for just not wanting to get involved, there is a difference and we shoot ourselves in the dick every time there’s some huge drama because some liberal doesn’t want to get involved or makes a crass joke and then a thousand tumbler teens accuse them of being Hiter incarnate.
Be un-nuanced about condemning fascism. Just pick your targets correctly, otherwise we’re doing the same thing as when a con screams “think of the children” and uses emotional appeals to create mindless mob hysteria without logic or reason. We can fight strong and smart. Beware thought terminating cliches on both sides.
It’s so easy to not be a Nazi though. Anyone can accuse me of being Hitler incarcerate, I’ll trash Hitler for being such a loser removed he actually had to off himself because he couldn’t handle what a loser he was. I’ll trash talk Nazis from dawn to dusk for being such gross spineless turds they have to hide their faces when they go out in public.
I don’t see any downsides here. The more people are accused of being a Nazi, the more we can humiliate and dogpile on Nazis, the less anyone feels inclined to think about being a Nazi. The concepts of Nazism should be associated with so much shame that no one ever wants to touch Nazism again.
Seems like a big win to me.
The more people are accused of being a Nazi, the more we can humiliate and dogpile on Nazis
Okay now you played your hand.
If you actually believe indiscriminate accusations are beneficial to a cause, you’re either as bad as them, or you’re just another goddamn bad-actor pretending to actually care. Or you’re a child with no real investment in this and you’re just saying shit for fun. Just get lost weirdo. We can be so much better than this.
Nazism should be associated with so much shame that no one ever wants to touch Nazism again
Yes, nobody is arguing this, your insistence on this point while obtusely ignoring the actual context here, that just calling anyone a nazi without evidence or reason just harms the left broadly.
Nazis are pathetic, weak little losers who deserve to be mocked and humiliated. That’s really all you need to say. Nazis need to feel powerful and superior, because they’re actually pitiful and spineless, so call them out for what they are and you beat your Nazi allegations.
On the other hand, Nazis thrive under “enlightened centrism”, “all sides are the same”, “tolerate everyone even the intolerant” so don’t do that if you aren’t a Nazi.
What little detail was it?
Based af
It’s the year 2035 and Johnny returns home from school…
Johnny: Hi mom!
Mom: Get back here and greet your one and only mother properly!
Johnny: fuck nazis mom!
Mom: fuck nazis my handsome boy!
And meanwhile, all over Johnny´s country, people are jailed, murdered and tortured for their ethnical background. But not by nazis, nonono.
I was taught when I was young that you don’t call something that isn’t really genocide genocide, someone that isn’t a nazi a nazi, etc. because it dilutes the meaning of the word. I do think that Israel is committing a genocide, and I do think that Musk is a neo-nazi; I’m not diluting these terms to say this.
He backs the neo-nazi party of Germany and does the Hitler salute as well as Hitler himself. He’s 100% a neo-nazi.
Are you… disagreeing with me? Or are you reaffirming what I’m saying? I am not sure I understand the point of this comment.
I do think that Musk is a neo-nazi
He’s 100% a neo-nazi
They’re agreeing and saying you weren’t as sure of that as you should be.
ah! Thanks for explaining.
Awe, someone is so unused to positive validation that he doesn’t understand agreement.
idk it just was phrased in a disagree-y kinda way. Thought maybe they’d misread.
And calling critisim of israel anti-semetic dilutes the meaning of that word.
Which, funny enough, is exactly what Nazis want.
I would say he’s a fascist rather than a neo-nazi, but that’s very much a distinction without a difference.
He did a sieg heil at a political rally and repeated the word “victory” twice in his speech. Hes spoken at a German far right rally and told them to get over their guilt for the holocaust and to be proud of being German. He signal boosts neo-nazi’s on his social media.
He’s a neo-nazi.
Thing is, awful things are happening so often that people are just getting tired of hearing the word regardless of how serious the issues are, and how much more serious they keep getting.
That’s true. So I think we need to come up with cleverer ways to make people see Musk as a threat. Just because he is a Nazi doesn’t mean pointing at him and crying wolf is the best way to fight.
Respectful disagree. People raised now, particularly Americans, exist in a bubble of ignorance and relative safety, often finding it hard to believe a certain kind of danger is happening right up until the last minute. A gunman isn’t really firing an automatic weapon at my workplace is he? What, like in Die Hard? That jet isn’t about to hit my apartment building with a missile right? What is this, a Call of Duty game? Are Russians really waging psychological war on democracies around the world? Like in a Tom Clancy novel?
Stop disassociating. Stop denying. He seig heiled twice. The people who don’t want to believe that are in serious danger and need to be shaken lucid. Like, pfft, what is this, one of those Wolfenstein reboots? These fictional worlds drew inspiration from somewhere. They were our ways to cope and make stacks off the pain and fear that preceeded them. It isn’t playing wolf. Reality will rip your throat out in the woods.
ah, the before times.
Now they’re the guys with their arms in the air. pretty hard to miss.
No no, you see they are being “ironic”! Don’t you understand their alpha brained comedy? /s
Those guys with swastika bands are just doing the roman salute, though. /s
👌
“riot sounds create riots”
This is exactly what I was thinking. You don’t need to employ any tricks right now, they’re pretty open about it.
I’m gonna channel John brown with every nazi I see
I’ve seen people unironically insist John Brown was a Nazi. I believe “posting John Brown memes” was one of the arguments for banning a swath of leftist subs on Reddit, back in '16.
A man who gave his life to free slaves is no nazi. The fact that it’s controversial to say slaves should be free is what made me radicalized
A man who gave his life to free slaves is no nazi.
Ah, but he condoned violence. And every liberal knows that resisting the benevolent enslavement of the superior white race is just as bad as firing artillery rounds at a federal base off the coast of South Carolina.
The fact that it’s controversial to say slaves should be free is what made me radicalized
You’re allowed to say slaves should be free. Everyone has the right to free speech, after all.
You’re just not allowed to do anything to free the slaves. Or condone those that do. Or mention the names of those that condone those that do. Or suggest in any way that violence is an appropriate response to a problem.
Unless, we’re talking about violence aimed at a National Enemy, of course. Then you’re an evil double agent of a foreign government if you don’t clap enthusiastically at our next Great Patriotic War abroad.
All hail exportation of explosive freedom
Nazis, plural. Where there’s one Nazi, there’s guaranteed multiple more hiding nearby.
Like roaches, except more skeevy.
and less clean
Sane weird breeding fetish though
At this point, they may not even be hiding
I strongly suggest following him on Mastodon.
Replies to his posts are among the most useful tools you can have to get a good blocklist going.
One day Nazis are going to find out again that people love killing Nazis more than Nazis love killing their undesirables.
You gotta use all caps to really show how much we LOVE killing Nazis.
Good to sort any pedantic or bad faith arguments out now. Pedantry didn’t win the day to stave off WWII and that shit caught on quick. Let’s get ahead of that this time.
I don’t really like this, because Nazis were the german national “socialists”, why the fuck would some american dipshits be nazis, they are fascists, we should use the correct word.
It’s all the same shit.
Neo-nazis. Shortened to Nazi. I think we understand what it means given the context.
Once again, Nazi was the name given to germans in WW2, because the National “Socialist” party, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei
Fascism is the word for the political ideology that Musk and Trump does in America, not “nazism”, they are fascists.
Here is a great video about fascism https://youtu.be/5Luu1Beb8ng
Neo-Nazism, not Nazism.
Neo-Nazism and fascism aren’t mutually exclusive.
Again, neo-nazism makes no sense, imagine if Trump started doing shit then Europe banded together and defeated them, then 70 years later when Fascism rises in Europe and some Temu Mussolini takes over we start calling them neo-magas, or more accurately to derive the name from the political party neo-repies/neo-repubs
The politicial ideology of Nazi Germany was Fascism, the political ideology got its name from Italy.
The only way neo-nazis would be accurate if you would be referring to germans trying to do another Third Reich (maybe Fourth?)
GTFO! Currently, there are more shit for brain US Nazis, within the MAGA ranks, than the fucking German Nazis, within the AfD, could dream of.
So… what were the nazis in america that was promoting nazism at the same time as german nazism was on the rise?
Fascists, there is no “nazism”, and there were no nazis is america, they were fascists.
It wasn’t german Nazism on the rise, it was german fascism, led by the NSDAP, hence the nickname nazi for germans.
Listen how nationalsozialistische is pronounced in german and you will get why the shorthand nazi was used.
So who are these fuckfaces? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party
American fascists cosplaying as Nazis, it literally says there in the wikipedia that they adopted their style.
Plus you seem to be implying that these racist fucks are smart enough to know the difference between nazi and fascist
You are being extremely pedantic. Its like saying champagne can only come from the Champagne region in france.
If it’s a quacking waterfowl and it’s duck season, you better believe I’m pulling the trigger.
The Nazis weren’t Nazis, so we shouldn’t call them Nazis either by that logic.
If some dipshit pops out to say “they aren’t German nationalists!” you’ve found a Nazi.
The nazis were literally the nazis, what the are you talking about
You yourself admit they weren’t socialists, correct? So how can they be national socialists?
The Nazis weren’t Nazis, they were just Nas.
But that’s arguing technical and semantic details instead of concerning yourself with the important bits, like what Nazis do and plan to do, and how you might punch them enough to get them to stop doing both.
The Nazis were the nazis because that’s how nationalsozialistische is pronounced, specifically the national part, https://youtu.be/VxxFl5Xc8nc, and then the allies used nazis as the nickname/shorthand. Has nothing to do with the socialist part, so your argument makes no sense.
Did you think they were called nazis because there is the “zi” part in sozialistische?
Because this comment thread is starting to feel like those reddit moments where someone starts pompously arguing from a position of ignorance
Nazis were the german national “socialists”, why the fuck would some american dipshits be nazis, they are fascists, we should use the correct word.
To borrow from a certain Austrian politican from 1923
“Why,” I asked Hitler, “do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?”
“Socialism,” he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.
"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.
“We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one.”
Besides, “The Fascist Party” was an organization originally founded by Benito Mussolini, having fallen out with the Italian Communist Party and formed his own reactionary splinter group. Fascism, as a reactionary response to the simultaneous popular appeal of socialism and the hostility it engenders from monarchism, is a synthesis of the two.
Fascism promises the red meat of social action that populists crave, while cultivating patronage with the aristocracy by deflecting criticism onto minorities. It is a “higher” form of political triangulation. Sort of the methamphetamine of politics, in so far as it juices the body politic to an enthusiastic euphoria of communal action that inevitably leads to self-destruction.
It is, in effect, all the worst aspects of socialism compounded upon itself. Rather than calling it “National Socialism” I would simply refer to it as “Socialism Done Badly”.
Yes, the word Fascism originates from Italy, but that is the correct word to use.
Of course it’s a .world account stepping up to defend Nazis.
Lmao, where did I defend anyone? All I said that they should be called fascists, which is the correct word
They should be called Nazi’s. Some left-wing nut job calling people fascist is an old trope. People can ignore it because they’ve seen it on TV a thousand times, it’s a joke. Calling someone a Nazi on the other hand isn’t used for a joke nearly as often. It’s much more difficult for a layman to ignore. So while you are technically correct that calling them Nazi’s is not the correct use of that word you don’t get to decide what words we get to use. That is decided by the zeitgeist and social consciousness and calling MAGA followers Nazis is what’s cutting through the noise.
I get to decide as much as you, mate.
Agreed, and your opinion is totally valid. I hope I didn’t come across implying your opinion isn’t valid.
No it isn’t.
The right to an opinion is not the right to be right.
Dumb and reductionist. There are actual nazis, but people seem to have forgotten what fascism and nazis actually are, so yes they do call anyone a nazi.
This only serves to water down the meaning of calling someone a nazi. And then when the real nazis show up, calling them out will have no impact.
Now, feel free to call me a nazi.
Holy shit! It worked!
Now go on for a couple paragraphs about “nuance,” and how “life isn’t always black & white.”
This is why you call them all Nazis.
This isn’t my story, but it’s been posted dozens of times if you want to look it up.
Guy is in his local pub. Two new guys come in. They don’t seem to be offensive, but the bartender screams at them to get the fuck out.
The bartender explains that those two are part of the local Nazi clique. How the Nazis work is to have two or three guys come to a place and become regulars. After a couple of weeks, they bring in four or five more guys. Then those guys bring in their buddies, and all of a sudden the regulars don’t want to come in any more and, without noticing, it’s now a Nazi bar.
It’s neat how your rebuttal was to something entirely different from what you were responding to.
It’s not that your comment wasn’t valuable in and of itself. But strictly as a rebuttal to “people go overboard by calling people who make them sad a Nazi”, the idea that we should correctly call out actual blatant low-instance Nazi behaviour as Nazi behaviour isn’t a rebuttal so much as it is a speech. This is question-ducking like I haven’t seen outside of politics.
The way I look at it, we’ve got real Nazis out here, right now.
So if some idiot calls their roommate a ‘nazi’ because the that person hogs the shower, it really doesn’t matter.
People know the difference between an actual murderer and someone saying, for example, Taylor Swift ‘murdered’ a song.
Misusing words is a minor thing to worry about at this point.
“Hypothetical people misuse the word nazi” is a very small problem, especially in today’s context. You are wasting time and energy and making yourself look like a nazi defender, even if you are acting somehow in good faith.
The argument you are making often comes up as a distraction. Someone will be like “The republicans wanting to put out-groups into camps is seems like a nazi thing to do” and someone like you will pop in with “well actually” and it’s not helpful. Unless you want to keep people unfocused and bickering so they can’t actually organize and cohere around fighting the villains
Well that was easy.
I was thinking of migrating to .world when I saw how annoying the .ml profanity filter is (“fire removedant”) but now I’m glad I didn’t.
Edit: oops, right, this is midwest.social. Anyway, I have seen .world ban for the same normie takes but it was only a suspension
And of course he defended musks salute, is a transphobe and does not know what genocide is.
https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/19124820/12601741
Hhhmmm… Not very genocide of people aren’t being rounded up and executed, and not very silent if there’s news articles talking about it.
Sensationalist crap.
The one I linked was someone else - I was just talking about in general, banning someone for an opinion of theirs that doesn’t inherently mean they’re a nazi/fascist/communist/etc
I was going by the screenshot and missed the linked user.
when I saw how annoying the .ml profanity filter is
The word filter is a blunt instrument applied to a gnarly problem. I still see trolls try to slide malformed vocabulary and coded phrasing to harass .ml users and vex the mods. But how long do you really expect mods/admins to work on the problem of “the perfect phrasing filter” when the root problem is inevitably the assholes who come to spam the chat with hate?
Just use fire extinguisher or fire suppressant. It’s not like the filter throws the entire post in the trash.
I think the word filter is silly. If people want to say bad words let them. Other people will tell them to fuck off if it’s inappropriate, or report them and get them banned if it’s bad enough.
But what do I know, I say the word removed because the euphemism treadmill for words that mean distinctly less intelligent than average is totally out of hand.
I think the word filter is silly.
I think its dated. There was definitely a point, ten or fifteen years ago, when people were very casual with certain slurs and blurring them out was a good way to tap down the inevitable internal board drama over phrasing. But now they’re less common, so you see more people tripping over the triggers than invoking them intentionally.
At the same time, I think we’re headed back in the direction of chuds going on a message board (or out into a crowd) and spamming the n-word as some kind of in-group Owning the Left right-of-passage.
So I won’t begrudge its existence.
I say the word removed because the euphemism treadmill for words that mean distinctly less intelligent than average is totally out of hand.
I remember clinging to the word “gay” back in college, for what I thought was similar reasons. And it just kept feeling more and more off-key to use, until eventually I stopped of my own accord.
I imagine I’m a bit younger than you. I remember gay=lame very well. I said it. Everyone said it. Then around starting high school I stopped saying it. I knew out of the closet gay people at that point.
I think there’s a big difference between gay meaning lame and removed meaning stupid.
how annoying the .ml profanity filter is (“fire removedant”
Lol, did you know, that aircrafts sometimes call out “removed”?
https://youtu.be/vmbzKsqKQoI?t=34
It means pull back on the throttle, not the um… ableist slur.
😉
That’s based as shit, stay on .ml if you’ve got a beef with it lol
I think .ml ban people too for being anti-communist but even if i knew of a good alternative, i don’t think there’s proper migrating on Lemmy like Mastodon has - only making a new account
Sh.itjust.works pretty much never bans unless you break international law or spam. Unfortunately that means sometimes Nazis come to this instance but usually they’re bullied out.
As someone that had a .ml account until it was explained to me that racism is explicitly allowed on ml… it’s okay on this instance. You lose hexbear but that’s the only downside.
Just never fall for .ee or .world. terrible instances, those.
So what’s wrong with .world really? I didn’t know shit about Lemmy when I signed up and now I have a two year history. I have a dbzer0 account because they align with my values, but I prefer to use this one because my post history is on here.
.world is the biggest instance and probably has the most new people but what’s really wrong with it?
The easiest, simplest way I can describe it is .world is 2024 reddit, but if they didn’t have corporate sponsors to blame for their actions.
Every decision they make from moderation to the type of communities they defederate with aligns with the most milquetoast US neoliberal viewpoint and sensibility. If that works for you, that’s great until you find the edges of your walled sandbox. But most of us were perma site banned from reddit for being too left wing or otherwise offending the sensibilities of people that believe the US is the peak of humanity that just needs people to vote harder to solve all the problems of the world.
I was wondering why you always seem to have such a hate-boner for .world so I checked your modlog.
It just begs the question:
Why is it that the more shit someone has to talk about a community the bigger the garbage-heap of a modlog they have?
I get .world, but what’s wrong with .ee? I thought that one was supposed to be cool?
They’ve had some really weird communities pop up in the past and have had some moments of protecting transphobic mods (at least if I remember the PTB comm threads correctly)
Thanks for the background.
Wait, racism explicitly allowed on .ml?
That doesn’t sound very Marxist. He was very clear (probably on account of being Jewish)
Yes, as per their explicit policy, you can never be racist or discriminatory against white people no matter what you say or do.
Or in other words they believe in the power dynamic version of racism, instead of the idea that racism is discrimination based on race.
Huh, that’s weird, I don’t see that at all.
Just “no bigotry,” rule 1.
I wonder why one of the guys sealioning in defense of Nazis would lie about that?
deleted by creator
No true Scotsman Fallacy
I agree with you but apparently I said it more elegantly and got 33 upvotes instead of 76 downvotes. I guess what you’re not mentioning is that the real neo-nazis really are here this time.
