And when people who actually lived in these area during that period almost ALL of them say communism was better! But OP and their ilk would rather focus on the imaginary eastern Europeans in their head, or perhaps the gusanos whose family ‘fled’ to the west after their fiefdom got collectivized
Easier to make it seem bad if you were born in that area after 1980ish and washing it all down as Bad Communism instead of the Capitalism that actually made it this way.
Back when I was a USSR style tankie I was very open about it and people would talk about communism with me at work. I had a Ukrainian woman join my team and I wanted to make sure I didn’t say anything to offend her because even though I thought at the time that the USSR system was ideal I acknowledged the evils that occured especially against Ukraine. So I asked her to tell me if I ever said anything that crossed a line and that I’d try and make sure I didn’t do that as well. Imagine my surprise when she told me she actually thought communism was great because before the USSR collapsed her city had everything they needed and her family was doing great. Her parents had higher degrees of education for free. It was when the USSR collapsed and capitalism came in that life in Ukraine got super hard again.
People might not like it, but you can watch a couple of people who are living in Eastern Ukraine (yes, the literal warzone) in this video talk about how shit was better until 1991. Cause, you know, they wouldn’t be living in a warzone for one thing. Watch from 03:15 till about 20 minutes in, if you’d like:
And when people who actually lived in these area during that period almost ALL of them say communism was better!
Lol. Almost all of my grandparents and greatgrandparents disagreed and personally told me about their life during USSR occupation, and the two that don’t were well connected with officials and generally lived much better than the average person, enjoying vacations to Cuba frequently, something tue average person could never afford.
Everyone else just lived in pretty poor, if stable, conditions. None of that “communism = starve to death” meme nonsense that some try to push, but it just wasn’t good. After fall of the USSR, things went worse before they became better, but now things are significantly better for the average person.
Everyone else just lived in pretty poor, if stable, conditions.
That’s the thing, they lived in a poor country. Not strictly because of their political system (as many flaws as it had), but because of global economics, and trade hostility from the USA that intentionally hampered growth. It’s not like they were purposely kept poor for funsies or cause the government were big meanies (sure, they were meanies in other ways). The wealth inequality between modern political leaders and funding sources (where the real power comes from) and the average citizen (particularly in the USA) is far greater than it ever was in the USSR.
Things are better for some and worse for many since then in Russia, but in other places like Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova everyone lost except for the rich guys who pillaged all the private infrastructure.
So they just built all those museums dedicated to the hardship and terror of those years as a little joke to mess with westerners like me as I traveled through their countries?
Interesting side fact, in places that were occupied by both sides in WW2, some museums could do double duty. The places the Gestapo used to imprison, torture, and murder were often the same places the communists used for the same purposes.
Yes. Turns out smearing communism is very lucrative for powerful people. And no, the only communists that set foot in concentration camps were prisoners there alongside Jews, homosexuals, Romani, and other minorities.
EDIT: forgot to mention the communists who liberated the camps too
Your do a great disservice to the tens-of-thousands of victims of the communist states. I spent a lot of time in these places, looking at mugshots and intake forms and reading about what happened to them.
What do you think when you hear about a fascist antisemite standing in front of a pile of children’s shoes in a Holocaust museum saying “it didn’t happen”? Because that’s what I think about you right now.
And I never said concentration camps (edit: although these museums do tell the stories of the tens-of-thousands “deported” to camps in Siberia and other places), I was taking about buildings used for the imprisonment, torture, and murder of mostly political prisoners, but also others that upset the Nazis/communists in some way. Here is one example of many. https://www.terrorhaza.hu/en
You’re the one conflating Nazis with the very people who did the world the service of defeating them so I think that very thing about YOU right now.
Did certain communist organizations overstep their bounds and even commit crimes against humanity? Yes, tragically. And that’s disgusting. Did that happen on anywhere near the scale that Fascists did, or that the current capitalist class IS CURRENTLY DOING?? Not even close, not even in the same galaxy. What you’re condemning is the exception for communism and the rule for capitalism, and I condemn it as well.
I am not conflating Nazis and communists. I am comparing you to a Holocaust denier because of your conspiracy theories about the existence of these places established to educate people about the well documented atrocities of the communist states. I didn’t say they were as bad as the Nazis overall, I pointed out they happily used the cramped cells, torture implements, and kill rooms left behind.
It is very much not the exception in communism. I have been to almost every former Warsaw pact country and a few countries that were part of the USSR and these museums are universal.
Lol no. I’m in Eastern Europe, living standards are way better now. The only good thing the USSR did here was trains and houses and those are better now. Those 2 was not worth death camps and criminalisation of my culture and language.
To quote a random politician who was talking about the eastern Germany wall: “Capitalism might not be perfect but at least we don’t have to build a wall to keep our citizens in”
Capitalist citizens tend to do better because their private organizations & government are willing to oppress the people in other parts of the world in order to extract their wealth. Communists respect the lives of poor people and refuse to take advantage of that, or oppress them further.
If a capitalist nation is completely cut off from the rest of the world they become fascist very quickly (Germany, middle east, etc. etc.), when a communist nation is cut off from the rest of the world they become poor (Cuba, USSR, East Germany, etc. etc.).
I don’t think the argument of “I’m rich therefore I’m better than you” is really a strong one.
When all else is equal, life is better under communism for the vast majority of people, just not the wealthy people of capitalist nations. But even for the capitalist “middle class”, when it comes to the essentials (Food, water, housing, healthcare, equality among women, minorities, etc.), communists still beat capitalists.
If a capitalist nation is completely cut off from the rest of the world they become fascist very quickly (Germany, middle east, etc. etc.), when a communist nation is cut off from the rest of the world they become poor (Cuba, USSR, East Germany, etc. etc.).
North Korea (communist) got cut off from the rest of the world and they became poor AND fascist (well not fascist, they became worse than fascist)
Funny that you bring up East Germany, since they had some of the best living standards in all of Europe in general. Universal healthcare, right to a job, free daycare AND over a year of maternity AND paternity leave?? Come on. The Berlin Wall was to stop tourism and trade as a tactic in the cold war, it’s not like people were fleeing to West Germany (where many former Nazis were still in power) in droves. Dubious morally for sure, but not what you claim it to be. Maybe that random politician you’re quoting benefitted from the corrupt system he was endorsing? In the words of Assata Shakur, don’t let your enemies tell you who your enemies are,
it’s not like people were fleeing to West Germany (where many former Nazis were still in power) in droves
They were though, when it was announced that the Berlin wall would shut down everybody was pretty much camping outside and the guards had to remind people that it would only happen at midnight through force
When stuff goes poorly in a socialist regime it’s always “this is proof of socialisms short comings and shows the inherent inhumanity of such an ideology!” but when it comes to capitalism it’s always “individual people who are corrupted misused the system to do harm, and yeah it keeps happening but it’s not an inherent trait of our system!”
Is Putin in the room with us right now? Don’t worry, he can’t hurt you.
This is completely wrong, because of course Putin absolutely does hurt people. He ordered the invasion of Ukraine and the killing of Ukrainians. His forces deliberately target civilians, or massacre them, like in Bucha. His actions have also killed innocent people from other countries, such as those on board flight MH17, who were killed by a Russian missile. He also orders the murders of people he doesn’t like, such as Alexander Litvinenko and Alexei Navalny (the latter’s murder being unsuccessful, but nevertheless ordered by the Kremlin). And one such assassination attempt, on Sergei Skripal, killed an innocent British woman, Dawn Sturgess. So no, it is clearly untrue to say that Putin can’t hurt someone, unfortunately.
I haven’t been on Lemmy in a while and only just saw this reply.
I don’t think I missed the point. You said that Putin can’t hurt people, and I’m saying that’s untrue. He has ordered the murders of political opponents. He ordered an invasion of Ukraine that has killed many innocent Ukrainians, and is also sending young Russians to their deaths, pointlessly.
And no, I obviously don’t think I’m on the front line. I’m lucky enough to not be in a warzone, but there are people who aren’t that lucky, and their lives are in danger due to the selfish barbarity of Putin and his regime.
It’s funny because if you look at living standards in eastern Europe during communism’s peak they were wayyy better than they are now
They had public transit, jobs, and housing for all.
And when people who actually lived in these area during that period almost ALL of them say communism was better! But OP and their ilk would rather focus on the imaginary eastern Europeans in their head, or perhaps the gusanos whose family ‘fled’ to the west after their fiefdom got collectivized
Easier to make it seem bad if you were born in that area after 1980ish and washing it all down as Bad Communism instead of the Capitalism that actually made it this way.
Back when I was a USSR style tankie I was very open about it and people would talk about communism with me at work. I had a Ukrainian woman join my team and I wanted to make sure I didn’t say anything to offend her because even though I thought at the time that the USSR system was ideal I acknowledged the evils that occured especially against Ukraine. So I asked her to tell me if I ever said anything that crossed a line and that I’d try and make sure I didn’t do that as well. Imagine my surprise when she told me she actually thought communism was great because before the USSR collapsed her city had everything they needed and her family was doing great. Her parents had higher degrees of education for free. It was when the USSR collapsed and capitalism came in that life in Ukraine got super hard again.
People might not like it, but you can watch a couple of people who are living in Eastern Ukraine (yes, the literal warzone) in this video talk about how shit was better until 1991. Cause, you know, they wouldn’t be living in a warzone for one thing. Watch from 03:15 till about 20 minutes in, if you’d like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drhgjxSJG6M
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=drhgjxSJG6M
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Lol. Almost all of my grandparents and greatgrandparents disagreed and personally told me about their life during USSR occupation, and the two that don’t were well connected with officials and generally lived much better than the average person, enjoying vacations to Cuba frequently, something tue average person could never afford.
Everyone else just lived in pretty poor, if stable, conditions. None of that “communism = starve to death” meme nonsense that some try to push, but it just wasn’t good. After fall of the USSR, things went worse before they became better, but now things are significantly better for the average person.
That’s the thing, they lived in a poor country. Not strictly because of their political system (as many flaws as it had), but because of global economics, and trade hostility from the USA that intentionally hampered growth. It’s not like they were purposely kept poor for funsies or cause the government were big meanies (sure, they were meanies in other ways). The wealth inequality between modern political leaders and funding sources (where the real power comes from) and the average citizen (particularly in the USA) is far greater than it ever was in the USSR.
Things are better for some and worse for many since then in Russia, but in other places like Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova everyone lost except for the rich guys who pillaged all the private infrastructure.
So they just built all those museums dedicated to the hardship and terror of those years as a little joke to mess with westerners like me as I traveled through their countries?
Interesting side fact, in places that were occupied by both sides in WW2, some museums could do double duty. The places the Gestapo used to imprison, torture, and murder were often the same places the communists used for the same purposes.
Yes. Turns out smearing communism is very lucrative for powerful people. And no, the only communists that set foot in concentration camps were prisoners there alongside Jews, homosexuals, Romani, and other minorities. EDIT: forgot to mention the communists who liberated the camps too
Your do a great disservice to the tens-of-thousands of victims of the communist states. I spent a lot of time in these places, looking at mugshots and intake forms and reading about what happened to them.
What do you think when you hear about a fascist antisemite standing in front of a pile of children’s shoes in a Holocaust museum saying “it didn’t happen”? Because that’s what I think about you right now.
And I never said concentration camps (edit: although these museums do tell the stories of the tens-of-thousands “deported” to camps in Siberia and other places), I was taking about buildings used for the imprisonment, torture, and murder of mostly political prisoners, but also others that upset the Nazis/communists in some way. Here is one example of many. https://www.terrorhaza.hu/en
You’re the one conflating Nazis with the very people who did the world the service of defeating them so I think that very thing about YOU right now. Did certain communist organizations overstep their bounds and even commit crimes against humanity? Yes, tragically. And that’s disgusting. Did that happen on anywhere near the scale that Fascists did, or that the current capitalist class IS CURRENTLY DOING?? Not even close, not even in the same galaxy. What you’re condemning is the exception for communism and the rule for capitalism, and I condemn it as well.
I am not conflating Nazis and communists. I am comparing you to a Holocaust denier because of your conspiracy theories about the existence of these places established to educate people about the well documented atrocities of the communist states. I didn’t say they were as bad as the Nazis overall, I pointed out they happily used the cramped cells, torture implements, and kill rooms left behind.
It is very much not the exception in communism. I have been to almost every former Warsaw pact country and a few countries that were part of the USSR and these museums are universal.
And what about the victims of capitalism? There are endless victims.
Lol no. I’m in Eastern Europe, living standards are way better now. The only good thing the USSR did here was trains and houses and those are better now. Those 2 was not worth death camps and criminalisation of my culture and language.
You probably weren’t even alive under communism. Or if you were you were a child.
They were still worse off than western europe
To quote a random politician who was talking about the eastern Germany wall: “Capitalism might not be perfect but at least we don’t have to build a wall to keep our citizens in”
Capitalist citizens tend to do better because their private organizations & government are willing to oppress the people in other parts of the world in order to extract their wealth. Communists respect the lives of poor people and refuse to take advantage of that, or oppress them further.
If a capitalist nation is completely cut off from the rest of the world they become fascist very quickly (Germany, middle east, etc. etc.), when a communist nation is cut off from the rest of the world they become poor (Cuba, USSR, East Germany, etc. etc.).
I don’t think the argument of “I’m rich therefore I’m better than you” is really a strong one.
When all else is equal, life is better under communism for the vast majority of people, just not the wealthy people of capitalist nations. But even for the capitalist “middle class”, when it comes to the essentials (Food, water, housing, healthcare, equality among women, minorities, etc.), communists still beat capitalists.
excelente point my dude
North Korea (communist) got cut off from the rest of the world and they became poor AND fascist (well not fascist, they became worse than fascist)
And I’m sure you’re an independent reporter from a neutral country that doesn’t benefit culturally from propaganda making communism look like fascism…
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Funny that you bring up East Germany, since they had some of the best living standards in all of Europe in general. Universal healthcare, right to a job, free daycare AND over a year of maternity AND paternity leave?? Come on. The Berlin Wall was to stop tourism and trade as a tactic in the cold war, it’s not like people were fleeing to West Germany (where many former Nazis were still in power) in droves. Dubious morally for sure, but not what you claim it to be. Maybe that random politician you’re quoting benefitted from the corrupt system he was endorsing? In the words of Assata Shakur, don’t let your enemies tell you who your enemies are,
They were though, when it was announced that the Berlin wall would shut down everybody was pretty much camping outside and the guards had to remind people that it would only happen at midnight through force
dont you know he always believes what hd is told by authority figures~~~~
a yes the mexican border wall the perfect example.
capitalist mexico and central america sure can keep people in their country 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
? I’m talking about the Berlin wall
Not because of capitalism, because of corruption, etc. Anyway, they try to escape to other capitilist countries
When stuff goes poorly in a socialist regime it’s always “this is proof of socialisms short comings and shows the inherent inhumanity of such an ideology!” but when it comes to capitalism it’s always “individual people who are corrupted misused the system to do harm, and yeah it keeps happening but it’s not an inherent trait of our system!”
It is a trait of our system, noone said capitalism is perfect, its just better than communism
dang really tripped you huh
sucks to lose an argument huh 😂😂😂
🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸liberty 🗽 intensifies
Just the fact that you made this comment shows me YOU lost the argument, imagine needing to point out you won the argument
I think that may have been JFK
That’s why they built to Berlin Wall to keep all of those westerns from entering East Germany, right?
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The public actively spying and ratting each other out was a nice bonus.
Thank GOD capitalist countries don’t have spies and police informants…
this happens here more
try again
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This is completely wrong, because of course Putin absolutely does hurt people. He ordered the invasion of Ukraine and the killing of Ukrainians. His forces deliberately target civilians, or massacre them, like in Bucha. His actions have also killed innocent people from other countries, such as those on board flight MH17, who were killed by a Russian missile. He also orders the murders of people he doesn’t like, such as Alexander Litvinenko and Alexei Navalny (the latter’s murder being unsuccessful, but nevertheless ordered by the Kremlin). And one such assassination attempt, on Sergei Skripal, killed an innocent British woman, Dawn Sturgess. So no, it is clearly untrue to say that Putin can’t hurt someone, unfortunately.
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I haven’t been on Lemmy in a while and only just saw this reply.
I don’t think I missed the point. You said that Putin can’t hurt people, and I’m saying that’s untrue. He has ordered the murders of political opponents. He ordered an invasion of Ukraine that has killed many innocent Ukrainians, and is also sending young Russians to their deaths, pointlessly.
And no, I obviously don’t think I’m on the front line. I’m lucky enough to not be in a warzone, but there are people who aren’t that lucky, and their lives are in danger due to the selfish barbarity of Putin and his regime.
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