He seems to be one of the most hated figures on the online left. From my view, he does have a lot of questionable takes, but also does bring up some good points when it comes to fighting imperialism from a leftist perspective, so I’d like to know what people in this community think about him.
I don’t deny any of that. I’m just skeptical of “Today, the working class of the imperialist countries … is entirely labour aristocratic.” from Zak Cope, what @muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml linked
Labor aristocracy has a really simple, technical ( let me stress not moral ) definition. There is a global price of labor power, what we call the cost of social reproduction. Right now ˜ $1.50 / hour.
ILO statistics
Just how much more are imperial core workers making? As of 2007, according to the ILO, 11x more.
If you make more than PPP $1.50 / hour, or ~$250 / month, then you are in the minority of the world’s workers.
Also, remember that western finance capitalists aren’t paying for southern labor in PPP dollars, they’re paying unadjusted wages, so the surplus value extracted is much higher. Southern workers are working using highly mobile, 21st century capital equipment, while being paid wage levels from the 1800s.
Believe me, I get it. You have to admit though, for some people on Lemmy, it is a moral issue.
Jeff Bezos has what, 200 billion dollars? Does that make a capitalist with $10M not a capitalist because they own 0.005% of what Jeff Bezos owns? No one would make a categorical distinction between them.
There has to be more to our understanding of political economy. I think there is, I agree there is super exploitation, but income doesn’t give you the whole story.
Edit: By the way, an interesting statistic I saw, as long as this is our standard of evidence. If you redistributed all wealth in the world, the average American would be 20% RICHER. Consider that the cost of living in the US is also way higher.
No they are not, that’s just silly. As an example, look at gold mining in Africa. Many of these people work with their hands. They don’t even have proper tools. And it’s incredibly dangerous too. But this explains part of the income disparity. They are simply doing less productive labor.
Marxists make distinctions between haute, middle, and petit bourgeoisie. How they react differently during different situations, and the conflicts between them are a focus for many.
Only because you haven’t read them. Read the book I mentioned, or imperialism in the 21st century. This recent wave of capital export, has happened within the last 35 years or so. They do not tear down production in the imperial core only to build less productive facilities elsewhere.
This is a very common talking point made by western chauvinist marxists, that income disparities are the result of “less productive” workers or facilities. Its thoroughly debunked in both the books I mentioned, as well as other works made by dependency theory writers.
If there was no labor aristocracy, there would be no imperialism.
“American unipolarity and the petro dollar is collapsing.”
And? Gas prices went up so now the labor aristocracy is no more and whiteness itself has shattered? I don’t think so. Even under the present pressures Imperialism has plenty going for it. I would concede that the labor aristocracy has less political and economic power than it did before the neoliberal era but that is a detail that is often overblown.
" How have you made that conclusion from anything I have said? "
I didn’t mean to say you deny the labor aristocracy altogether, but you don’t seem to acknowledge its importance to the imperialist system, the prevalence it still retains in the North, or the sensibilities is fosters there.
" How do you think imperialism began in the first place? "
Alongside whiteness and labor aristocracy.
This is exactly the point I am trying to make.
By whom?
No, but this is the process that has been set in motion.
If you look at the failures of US imperialism lately, there was so much to be gained in Afghanistan. It could have been an obstacle for the belt and road initiative. There was trillions in rare earth metals. The opium trade was lucrative. This was all lost. And now China offers an alternative in Africa and Asia to the debt trap diplomacy that imperialism relies on. Of course imperialism is still the dominant force, but it is contracting clearly.
It is also not necessary for imperialism to be wiped out fully before people who previously tended to align themselves with the ruling class to become class conscious. People in the west are used to a higher standard of living. There are some commodities people will not live without. So when George Takei and Stephen Colbert pretend to speak for everyone when they say we can spend a “couple bucks” more for gas for Ukraine, it tends to get a large backlash now. There is a large body of Americans who reject the mainstream narrative about Ukraine. They know it’s about NATO, and they want us to leave NATO. This is your average “right winger”. These people are not aligned with imperialist interests anymore. That’s worth paying attention to and not dismissing.
Well by yourself
Its not clear to me that this is quite the blow you are making it out to be but I do agree with your point that the US is losing its grip.
What class consciousness is there to be gained in the Imperial core if not the petit-bourgeoisie consciousness that is rising?
Its worth paying attention to because it is the harbinger of fascism and war. The revolution may be coming, but these people you are lauding are not on the proletarian side. They have their own class consciousness. If we are to be proactive and get out in front of this, I would not suggest telling people who live off of the labor of the South or the generational wealth from stolen lands that they are entitled to something more.
Do you think the working class simply does not exist in the imperial core? This is the mistake third worldists always make. The labor aristocracy is a tendency of the working class. It is not a separate class.
Yes, there is a rise in fascism. You see it in anarchists and libertarian socialists like Vaush who calls himself an “anarcho-NATOist.” They want a no fly zone in Ukraine, which will trigger WW3. Fascism is coming but it is coming from the synthetic left who “support the uyghurs” want to “free taiwan and hong kong.” They will align themselves with neo cons like Bolton and Pompeo to do this.
Fascism arrives when the capitalism system is already on its last legs. Fascism is capitalism in decay. So it is the failure of communists if this moment cannot be seized, and the discontent can’t be channeled into something productive. What you are saying, that we should be against proletarian class conciousness in the west is completely counterproductive and the opposite of what should be done. You are admitting to intentionally antagonizing these people. Which will lead to the fascism you are so afraid of. Seeing things teleologically, it is clear why your ideology exists. It is a psyop
The existence of the working class is ubiquitous. Of course there is a working class. That doesn’t mean it’s proletarian or that class consciousness will arise in a way that is considered proletarian.
This may be true in the South but its not evident in the North. Even Engles wrote kf the embourgiousiement of the UK. This way of watering down class is a form of class reductionism and it doesn’t actually account for the actual physical processes of class formation. Rather it is dogmatic and simplified just as western academia presents it. It only serves to establish that somehow labor in the north is effectively the same as it is in the south. This is wrong.
Sort of, but that failure manifests in more ways than the sanctamonious narrative that comminists are just being lazy. Sometimes we cant understand our material conditions well enough to form a consensus and be effective.
You misunderstand completely. If you tell someone with explicitly petite bourgeoisie sensibilities, who lives in the Imperial core, that they are exploited and that they have nothing to lose but their chains they will hear something completely different than if you say the same thing to someone in a garment factory in Bangladesh. That someone from the imperial core has an employer is superfluous in determining the class character of these seperate parties.
This is because one has natural proletarian sensibilities that will aid them in understanding pathways to revolution that we as comminists advocate for because they are ground zero for the exploitative imperialist system. The other is embourgiousiefied and will more naturally find fascism in their class interests precisely because it can preserve and revitalize the position they feel entitled to and ultimately benefit from.
My point earlier is a point about rhetoric. We need rhetoric that actually penetrates the fact that workers in the core are largely embourgiousiefied instead of pretending that because I have an employer that somehow my class interests align directly with the global proletariat. You cannot assume proletarian sensibilities are ubiquitous to the imperial core.
Even colonized people within the US are capable of accessing the benifits of imperialism. This is not a moral statement. It is a material reality that can play a major role in class formation and expressions of class character.
A nice and neat little bow to put on your class reductionism.