So caffeine binds to adenosine receptors to block adenosine’s drowsiness effect. Melatonin binds to melatonin receptors to regulate circadian rhythms. As far as how adenosine interacts with melatonin, no idea. I’m no biochemist and what I’m about to say could be 100% incorrect, but it seems that adenosine is involved in melatonin production?
So if it’s true that adenosine leads to melatonin production, then I’m guessing that the adenosine-blocking effect of caffeine would be (partially?) negated by ingesting a melatonin supplement, especially in the massive doses that they sell.
My money is on SLEEP.[I got it backwards!! See below replies.]You’re on the right track, but funnily enough you got it switched around!
Research shows that melatonin binding leads to downstream release of adenosine, so if caffeine is blocking its binding action sleep is not on the way!
Here’s the paper I am referencing: https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.neuron.2015.02.016
“We find that melatonin promotes sleep downstream of the circadian clock as it is not required to initiate or maintain circadian rhythms. Additionally, we provide evidence that melatonin may induce sleep in part by promoting adenosine signaling, thus potentially linking circadian and homeostatic control of sleep”
Ohh so melatonin leads to adenosine production, which caffeine blocks. so NO SLEEP is the smart bet. that makes a lot of sense, yeah! and when you think about it, coffee at night is gonna make for poor sleep no matter how much melatonin you take.
FYI, every melatonin supplement is way too high of a dose and is completely saturating your melatonin receptors, leading to tolerance and dependency.
Your body is not producing more than .5mg of melatonin naturally, so taking a 5mg supplement is far too much. And they sell 15-20mg too. If you can find 1mg that’s best; but what’s even better in the long run is not using it!
Bioavailability of oral melatonin is very poor though. IIRC it’s about 10%, so that 5mg sounds about right.
That’s a great point! You’re definitely right. I’m seeing somewhere between 10-30% depending on patient population.
That being said, since we are naturally releasing .5mg, another .5mg is already double the normal concentration.
Another major point of consideration though would be formulation, as that is going to have a large effect on the half life of the dose in your system. Even if bioavailability is around physiological concentration at 5mg, the duration of the exposure being much longer than the time it takes for natural release would still have negative impact.
All this being said, definitely never a reason to go above 5mg
We buy 1mg. Once we couldn’t find any so we bought 3mg and cut them in half. I found it interesting that OP used actual dosage for caffeine but not for melatonin. Three pills could be 3mg or 60+.
That’s great! I really do think 1-1.5mg is the upper limit anyone should use, although it’s still higher than free melatonin concentration in your brain it’s a much more reasonable dose in comparison.
And I think most people who don’t understand melatonin go straight for the 20mg, so we’re probably talking 60+.
It really blows my mind that in this day and age there are no regulations or at the very least warnings or guidelines regarding melatonin supplements.
The gap in FDA policy for prescription drugs vs supplements is vast. Supplements have very few regulations and restrictions that create a lot of potential issues for the uninformed consumer.
How is it with Quetiapin Sandoz? One pill is 25mg and i’m tired until noon, so i usually cut them in half.
Quetiapin is an antipsychotic medication, not the same as melatonin which is a naturally occurring hormone.
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0x0 is correct. If it’s a prescribed medication then my comment is not relevant! I am referring to over the counter supplements
I know it’s said over and over and over, but regular exercise!! There are certain types and times of exercise that are more effective, but generally speaking, exercise promotes serotonin conversion to melatonin and makes sleepy time easier.
Absolutely! Additionally, morning sun is another great way to regulate your circadian clock and let your body start its internal timer for melatonin release.
In the winter, I use a light box for seasonal affective disorder, and in addition to feeling much more energized, I find it helps me get more consistent sleep!
Interesting. I have SAD, I’ll look into this, thanks!
Please do! Research has shown that as little as 20 minutes of light therapy in the morning can have positive effects
this is dangerous.
Lmao how on earth is this dangerous? Or does this classify as ‘mixing uppers and downers’ for you? Because it definitely isn’t, melatonin is barely more psychoactive than a sugar pill
Not any more dangerous than taking 700mg of caffeine on its own
There are no winners here.
Source: Tried for years to overpower the insomnia from my ADHD meds with melatonin, weed, CBD:THC edibles, booze, kava, diphenhydramine, etc. before finally going cold turkey on my adderall. With enough stimulants, it doesn’t matter how much melatonin you take; you’re not gonna have a good night’s sleep edit: but you’ll also be too tired to be productive or to do anything fun
I have no issues sleeping on 120mg of Vyvanse, I even find it easier to sleep.
Are you sure you’re not misdiagnosed?
Certainly possible, but I’m sort of a textbook mild case of ADHD, just with the side case of insomnia being fairly prominent (which was true even before medication). Everybody reacts to medication in different ways, so I’ve just found I have to rely on coping strategies more than medication for my case. It’s not a big deal and I’m at a point in my life where I can manage my ADHD symptoms in a way that doesn’t affect my life too much. So for me, the side effects of the medication exacerbate my preexisting insomnia to the point that the drawbacks of adderall outweigh the benefits for my particular brand of ADHD.
Did you take slow release aderall? My aderall is worn off before I go to sleep and I actually sleep better since I take aderall because I spend more energy during the day.
No it’s IR, but taken 20 mg in the morning and then 10 mg in the early afternoon. It just always wound up with the physical effects lingering much longer than the mental effects, so if I tried skipping the afternoon dose, then I’d wind up totally scattered and useless from about 3PM on.
The XR once in the morning worked a little better, but for whatever reason didn’t really help the same way and I still had the insomnia from it.
Ah that’s unfortunate. The side effects are pretty bad especially with a high dose of
700 mg of caffeine, is that like 29 coffees in a row?
If you get to 100 you unlock super speed
Super speed to heaven
Somewhere between 7 and 12, depending on the kind of coffee.
It’s very presumptuous to rule out 350 decaf coffees.
What about a couple thousand decaffeinated espressos (there is certainly 0.x mg of caffeine in one, not 0)?
So… They want their heart to explode.
What? No, they also took melatonin, duh
They want their heart to explode in their sleep?
I mean, don’t we all? Sure beats being awake for it.
Caffeine works. Melatonin has never done anything for me; maybe I’m immune, but I’ve put it in the same mental basket as homeopathy.
Hey, I commented elsewhere on this post and I wanted to let you know that the reason it doesn’t help you is likely because all melatonin supplements are way too strong!! Our body is releasing .3-.5mg of melatonin during the evening, and over the counter melatonin ranges from 5mg-20(!!)mg per pill.
As you can see, this is WAY too much for our body, and it saturates every melatonin receptor in the brain resulting in over signaling of these pathways and a tolerance to melatonin. People who consistently take it each night can really mess up the sleep related pathways in the brain, and the desensitization means that the naturally released melatonin is not even close to creating the proper response in the brain.
It can be difficult to find in some places, but if you’d like to use it there are 1mg supplements out there that I would recommend! :)
Melatonin stimulates your bodies vitamin D creation, which makes you tired when it gets dark. It’s not a magical bullet to solve insomnia, but it helps sleep regulation for people who don’t get enough sunlight. You still need some sunlight though, just less.
Taking vitamin D supplement (which anyone over 45° latitude should) doesn’t make me more tired tho.
So if you take vitamin D (e.g. D3) would that be better than taking melatonin?
sunlight is created by the dark Lord to sell more Vitamin d
Melatonin actually has a scientific basis. It’s a naturally produced hormone that will have an effect on most people, but being a hormone, ymmv. Homeopathy is pure quackery from top to bottom
That’s if the supplement actually contains what it says it does. Supplements are unregulated in the us
Can melatonin even cross the blood brain barrier? Caffeine definitely can…
Could try and ask your doctor about cyproheptadine. Keeps me out cold
Let my parents both try it and they slept 8 solid hours.
It’s also classed as an antihistamine for what that’s worth.
Don’t mix uppers and downers. That’s how John Belushi and Phillip Seymour Hoffman died.
/S
/s means sarcastic so I should mix upper and downers?
/s doesn’t mean sarcastic.
/s
Sure, what could go wrong?
Peak science right here. Someone’s getting their doctorate off the back of this study.
I feel like this is just a lower-stakes version of “RedBull & vodka.” If that’s true, @The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world, then this is a recipe for a bad hangover.
I’d say higher stakes from the 700mg alone. RedBull has 80mg of caffeine.
700mg is nothing, not even twice the FDA recommendation
If I need to sleep I take a half dose of Nyquil. That shit knocks me out. And nice side benefit of clearing my sinuses for a few days.
Melatonin does not make you sleepy. It just helps you to stay asleep.
Youre wrong.
Where, specifically, in that article am I wrong?
