People not voting for Harris because of Gaza need to avoid watching the debate, otherwise they’ll change their minds. No matter how bad things are, they can get worse.
Because that’s not the reality or the America that we live in. Every time a truly leftist candidate tries to run, they get slapped down by the majority of the DNC’s voting base.
This is a center-right, Pro-Capitalist country with a center-right, pro-capitalist population. You don’t have to like it, I certainly don’t, but that’s the reality.
Without ranked choice voting, there is no way in hell an actual leftist will ever appear anywhere on a presidential ballot.
So hold your nose, put on your big boy pants, and vote for the lesser of two evils with the rest of us, because if you don’t the fucking Nazis will win again.
You’re not wrong. It all sucks. But this is the reality we live in. Life is about choosing the best choices out of the options given to us and very rarely are any of those choices exactly what we want.
Because voting has very limited choice and a winner takes all mechanism. Ob-fucking-viously the candidates should be better, but not voting won’t make that change. Trump elected will just make this worse.
Voting is harm reduction.
If you want to make things better and promote your own idealised society, get involved, donate to causes you consider to be up to your standards. But even then getting involved and convincing future candidates will be much harder if Trump is elected than if it’s Harris.
Because the candidates do have those responsibilities, but have shirked them. Ideally, we’d want a better voting system, that didn’t mathematically garuntee that only two viable parties emerge, so that when the politicians refuse to use their power as they should, people who will may be chosen instead, but we don’t have that, and changing that is a long and difficult process that only gets harder if the more authoritarian types get power anyway. If you’re in a lifeboat with holes, and there are two people that have rigged things so that one of them is going to be in charge, and one wants to stop bailing out water and the other wants to scoop it back into the boat, then even though those two aren’t following their responsibilities, it doesn’t mean you should stop bailing the water out, because it has to get done by somebody or you drown. And if you have a say in which of the two is in charge, the guy that just wants to sit there uselessly is still the option you must pick, because at least they aren’t trying to undo the progress you’re making. Ideally you’d want to figure out how to undo the rigged system too, but you have to deal with the water first, lest you all drown fighting over who’s in charge.
Who is the best alternative to Harris right now? Do I think she’s perfect? No. Do I think she’s the best alternative to Trump? Yes. We don’t have a super progressive candidate that stands a chance of winning in this race, we picked Biden in the primary, he stepped back and now we have Harris. The system sucks, but that’s what we have until voters put candidates in place to change the system.
The question should be what choice does Harris have, except to stop Israel?
If (as I strongly agree) trump is the worst human on the planet who will cause irreparable damage to :gestures wildly: fucking everything, then why doesn’t his opponent have the responsibility to do whatever the hell it takes, within the law to keep him out of power?
Especially as in this instance his opponent is currently sworn to be responsible for the ongoing welfare of the nation.
Imagine being so fucking intent on enabling genocide half a planet away that you’d rather let your own country fall into the hands of Camacho Harkonnen rather than attract progressive voters.
I’m under the impression there are more votes to lose by not appearing to stick with Israel than there are votes to lose by not attempting to intervene. At least, that’s what the party appears to have assessed.
Exactly this. If she turns on Isreal she will lose the election. I think it’s realistic to think that she will have more criticisms on Isreal after she is elected. She’s not a Zionist like Biden.
instead of whining about voting for somebody you don’t absolutely love all aspects of, why don’t you use your time advocating to change the voting system so that you can vote for somebody else meaningfully.
Because Liberals have always been spineless and will continue to be. There is a parasocial worshiping dynamic how they interact with people in power. Harris just praised a Dick Cheney endorsement. There is no red line for them.
What, are you gonna be on the front lines with your guns shooting? The overwhelming majority of people with this mindset have never held a firearm in their entire lives and have no idea what they’re even talking about. What are you even insinuating here? Is your end goal that we burn the entire country down because “wahhhhh both sides aren’t perfect”? Grow up, only children refuse to see greater good through compromise because they can’t see past not getting what they want. Single issue voters love to stick their head in the sand and pretend the one issue that they’re whinging about is the most important in the world.
Have fun standing on your “genocide” comment when you’re in a fascist dictatorship run by nazis. “but but but the genocide wah”
I’m insinuating that we can become ungovernable and force the government to capitulate to our demands. Mass protest, general strike, public disruptions, boycott, we have options to fight back.
I donate to bail funds and support resistance groups financially, because I live in the middle of fucking nowhere and there aren’t protests for me to join.
Oh come on, that’d expose them to actual risk from their neighbors who likely don’t share their views, and they surely cannot do that. Except when they become ungovernable when things get worse partially because of their vote, and then they’ll magically be capable of winning a revolution or whatever.
Hey guess what? Fascists dont give a fuck about that shit, youll end up in a puddle of your own blood cause ya wont have the numbers. If it didnt work out for the fighters at Blair mountain a hundred year ago what makes ya think youll achieve anything.
Fuck ya’d have a better chance doing random acts of terrorism that put the fucken IRA to shame. Still probably end up in a ditch but you could probably kill some of the ones trying to kill you.
If you actually believed this sky is falling bullshit you’d be doing a hell of a lot more than voting. Do you even own a gun? lol
EDIT sorry don’t answer that. What I mean I, I doubt you own a gun because you do not believe you’d ever need one, because you do not believe fascism is actually coming. This is all rhetoric.
Fuck ya’d have a better chance doing random acts of terrorism that put the fucken IRA to shame. Still probably end up in a ditch but you could probably kill some of the ones trying to kill you.
Im a Redneck, course I own a fucken gun. But heres the thing the Republicans are a party of fucken fascists, even if they dont get as bad as I suspect theyll still most likely use the police to gun down protesters and strikers. I just aint an idiot who assumes shit will work out, so I take every fucken step I can to keep the worst from happening. “Prepare for war hope for peace” is a pretty solid summary of alot of my philosophy.
I assume for the worst and the worst involves concentration camps, firing lines, and the destruction of civil liberties. Sure ya can probably take out the local police with an ad hoc militia, but can ya take out say an SS or SA equivalent? What about the National guard or the military itself? Cause my rough guess is that the corruption would take about ten years minimum to destroy the professionalism and tech advantage of the US military.
Voting costs nothing and depending on where one lives can have an outsized impact.
Another narcissistic comment. You assume everyone else must live in a cornfield doing nothing because you do. SAD, especially since you support genocide.
One set of policies is more helpful to ending the war peacefully than the other is. If you cared about your cause instead of grandstanding, you’d vote for it. Not voting sends no signal, and on average ends up with a policy somewhere between the two options, which is worse than the better option by definition. If you’re going yo waste your vote, at LEAST vote third party so that your message will be heard.
Important, but not to the level of civil disobedience like when we protested police abuse and systemic racism. Like a 4/10 judging by people’s actions.
Guess what dummy, you’re playing soccer with these Yahoos whether you like it
Yeah, actually a lot of us are very aware of the game and how it’s played. Are you? You know most of us aren’t in swing states, right? So what is my protest vote going to affect again? My vote already doesn’t matter in a presidential election. It’s literally never mattered as long as I’ve been a voting adult.
or not so pick a fucking side and THEN ALSO DO MORE."
Yeah I have picked a side. The anti-capitalist side. Which of these parties are anti
-capitalist, again?
99% of y’all are calling out this user saying they’ll “do nothing and be smug” instead of voting, but y’all are just gonna vote blue and similarly be smug, do nothing, but continue to run defense for millionaires and one of the most powerful capitalist political parties in the world.
Sitting on the sidelines while the world burns around you and complaining about it is highly effective. Withholding a protest vote (for either side) and supporting voter apathy is lame as hell.
At least when the capitalists are fucking you, regardless of who wins, you can smugly yell “I didn’t consent”.
Withholding a protest vote (for either side) and supporting voter apathy is lame as hell.
What are you talking about? You know there are more than two candidates running, right? I’m literally saying I will be voting third party in a presidential election as I always have, and me voting third party has literally never mattered because the electoral college. Who’s withholding their vote? Although, that doesn’t mean I think voting in a bourgeois democracy is actually a meaningful expression of political power and organization.
You’re all hand winging about people on the left who just don’t want to vote Democrat, again even in states where the result is already known. You can’t even dare to criticize Democrats or send any message even in safe states like CA, WA, or NY. Because the handful of conscientious leftists are definitely gonna flip CA red or could definitely flip MS blue if they sucked it up and went for Kamala.
When the capitalists continue to fuck us , you’ll have done fuck all to push socialism because you spend all your time, again, running defense for one of the two most powerful capitalist institutions in the world.
In an electoral college system, only swing states matter.
But parties will pay attention if votes are siphoned from them. If you’re not in a swing state, a third party vote has basically no negative effect but may have a positive effect of influencing a major party.
I think it’s more than arguable that voting for Kamala in Louisiana or Mississippi or even potentially California is a bigger waste of a vote than voting third party.
Voting for either side is voting for Genocide. Not voting or voting third party when you’re left wing is voting for Trump which is genocide with extra bad things sprinkled on top. I’d say don’t kid yourself but I suspect that horse has already bolted
People not voting for Harris because of Gaza need to avoid watching the debate, otherwise they’ll change their minds. No matter how bad things are, they can get worse.
Why is it always ‘voters need to lower their standards’, and never ‘candidates need to be decent human beings’?
Because we have an unjust voting system, and petulantly refusing to vote can and will get people killed, and rights stripped from millions.
Why do you only frame the issue in terms of the voters’ responsibilities, and never in terms of the candidate’s responsibilities?
Why aren’t the politicians the ones who need to make hard choices? Why can’t they get wedged on the issues for once?
Because that’s not the reality or the America that we live in. Every time a truly leftist candidate tries to run, they get slapped down by the majority of the DNC’s voting base.
This is a center-right, Pro-Capitalist country with a center-right, pro-capitalist population. You don’t have to like it, I certainly don’t, but that’s the reality.
Without ranked choice voting, there is no way in hell an actual leftist will ever appear anywhere on a presidential ballot.
So hold your nose, put on your big boy pants, and vote for the lesser of two evils with the rest of us, because if you don’t the fucking Nazis will win again.
You’re not wrong. It all sucks. But this is the reality we live in. Life is about choosing the best choices out of the options given to us and very rarely are any of those choices exactly what we want.
Because voting has very limited choice and a winner takes all mechanism. Ob-fucking-viously the candidates should be better, but not voting won’t make that change. Trump elected will just make this worse.
Voting is harm reduction.
If you want to make things better and promote your own idealised society, get involved, donate to causes you consider to be up to your standards. But even then getting involved and convincing future candidates will be much harder if Trump is elected than if it’s Harris.
We can and should pressure put politicians to be better, but refusing to vote doesn’t do that.
Because the candidates do have those responsibilities, but have shirked them. Ideally, we’d want a better voting system, that didn’t mathematically garuntee that only two viable parties emerge, so that when the politicians refuse to use their power as they should, people who will may be chosen instead, but we don’t have that, and changing that is a long and difficult process that only gets harder if the more authoritarian types get power anyway. If you’re in a lifeboat with holes, and there are two people that have rigged things so that one of them is going to be in charge, and one wants to stop bailing out water and the other wants to scoop it back into the boat, then even though those two aren’t following their responsibilities, it doesn’t mean you should stop bailing the water out, because it has to get done by somebody or you drown. And if you have a say in which of the two is in charge, the guy that just wants to sit there uselessly is still the option you must pick, because at least they aren’t trying to undo the progress you’re making. Ideally you’d want to figure out how to undo the rigged system too, but you have to deal with the water first, lest you all drown fighting over who’s in charge.
Who is the best alternative to Harris right now? Do I think she’s perfect? No. Do I think she’s the best alternative to Trump? Yes. We don’t have a super progressive candidate that stands a chance of winning in this race, we picked Biden in the primary, he stepped back and now we have Harris. The system sucks, but that’s what we have until voters put candidates in place to change the system.
That’s not the question.
The question should be what choice does Harris have, except to stop Israel?
If (as I strongly agree) trump is the worst human on the planet who will cause irreparable damage to :gestures wildly: fucking everything, then why doesn’t his opponent have the responsibility to do whatever the hell it takes, within the law to keep him out of power?
Especially as in this instance his opponent is currently sworn to be responsible for the ongoing welfare of the nation.
Imagine being so fucking intent on enabling genocide half a planet away that you’d rather let your own country fall into the hands of Camacho Harkonnen rather than attract progressive voters.
I’m under the impression there are more votes to lose by not appearing to stick with Israel than there are votes to lose by not attempting to intervene. At least, that’s what the party appears to have assessed.
Exactly this. If she turns on Isreal she will lose the election. I think it’s realistic to think that she will have more criticisms on Isreal after she is elected. She’s not a Zionist like Biden.
Because having a tantrum because reality does not conform to your sense of fairness not only accomplishes fuck-all, but actively makes things worse.
Because when you let perfect become the enemy of good, you end up with neither.
It’s literally named the Nirvana Fallacy and yet people double down on it like it’s the best decision they’ve ever made.
Hey! Wait! They’ve got a new complaint!
instead of whining about voting for somebody you don’t absolutely love all aspects of, why don’t you use your time advocating to change the voting system so that you can vote for somebody else meaningfully.
Because voters choose their own behavior but not the candidates’ positions.
This really can’t be the first time you’ve heard of changing the things you can and accepting things you can’t change.
Also, voters can absolutely change a candidate’s position. The fact that people want us to vote for Harris, and not Biden, is proof of that.
Because the world is imperfect and politicians will always disappoint you.
Why do you think people still fall for the, “I’m just asking questions” routine?
Because Liberals have always been spineless and will continue to be. There is a parasocial worshiping dynamic how they interact with people in power. Harris just praised a Dick Cheney endorsement. There is no red line for them.
Still not voting for genocide.
If things get worse, we’ll just have to do something other than vote won’t we?
What, are you gonna be on the front lines with your guns shooting? The overwhelming majority of people with this mindset have never held a firearm in their entire lives and have no idea what they’re even talking about. What are you even insinuating here? Is your end goal that we burn the entire country down because “wahhhhh both sides aren’t perfect”? Grow up, only children refuse to see greater good through compromise because they can’t see past not getting what they want. Single issue voters love to stick their head in the sand and pretend the one issue that they’re whinging about is the most important in the world.
Have fun standing on your “genocide” comment when you’re in a fascist dictatorship run by nazis. “but but but the genocide wah”
I’m insinuating that we can become ungovernable and force the government to capitulate to our demands. Mass protest, general strike, public disruptions, boycott, we have options to fight back.
Instead of just voting every couple years.
But instead you’ll do nothing, and feel smug about it.
I donate to bail funds and support resistance groups financially, because I live in the middle of fucking nowhere and there aren’t protests for me to join.
Start one then if you feel that strongly about what’s going on in Gaza
Oh come on, that’d expose them to actual risk from their neighbors who likely don’t share their views, and they surely cannot do that. Except when they become ungovernable when things get worse partially because of their vote, and then they’ll magically be capable of winning a revolution or whatever.
How many hours have you volunteered for Harris? Don’t you want to stop Trump?
So you support genocide because you live “nowhere”? OK.
Yeah I’m pretty pathetic - I’m doing as much to stop genocide as you are to stop Trump lol
Hey guess what? Fascists dont give a fuck about that shit, youll end up in a puddle of your own blood cause ya wont have the numbers. If it didnt work out for the fighters at Blair mountain a hundred year ago what makes ya think youll achieve anything.
Fuck ya’d have a better chance doing random acts of terrorism that put the fucken IRA to shame. Still probably end up in a ditch but you could probably kill some of the ones trying to kill you.
If you actually believed this sky is falling bullshit you’d be doing a hell of a lot more than voting. Do you even own a gun? lol
EDIT sorry don’t answer that. What I mean I, I doubt you own a gun because you do not believe you’d ever need one, because you do not believe fascism is actually coming. This is all rhetoric.
We don’t talk about that on Lemmy.
Im a Redneck, course I own a fucken gun. But heres the thing the Republicans are a party of fucken fascists, even if they dont get as bad as I suspect theyll still most likely use the police to gun down protesters and strikers. I just aint an idiot who assumes shit will work out, so I take every fucken step I can to keep the worst from happening. “Prepare for war hope for peace” is a pretty solid summary of alot of my philosophy.
I assume for the worst and the worst involves concentration camps, firing lines, and the destruction of civil liberties. Sure ya can probably take out the local police with an ad hoc militia, but can ya take out say an SS or SA equivalent? What about the National guard or the military itself? Cause my rough guess is that the corruption would take about ten years minimum to destroy the professionalism and tech advantage of the US military.
Voting costs nothing and depending on where one lives can have an outsized impact.
You’re organizing those things, or at least joining others who are organizing, right?
As much as we can, plus financial support.
But I’m not going to organize a protest in a rural cornfield lol
So you support genocide because you live in a cornfield? Cool.
It’s not like you’re out there fucking volunteering for Harris anyway. Do you want Trump to win??? 🙄
Another narcissistic comment. You assume everyone else must live in a cornfield doing nothing because you do. SAD, especially since you support genocide.
Why not both?
Go ahead.
But I’m not voting for genocide. I’d rather die.
You have three options:
One set of policies is more helpful to ending the war peacefully than the other is. If you cared about your cause instead of grandstanding, you’d vote for it. Not voting sends no signal, and on average ends up with a policy somewhere between the two options, which is worse than the better option by definition. If you’re going yo waste your vote, at LEAST vote third party so that your message will be heard.
Part of Harris’s platform is a cease fire and a two state solution. Voting for her wouldn’t be “voting for genocide”.
Over people dying in another country? And not for important things like disenfranchising and taxes?
Yikes. Genocide is pretty fucking important.
Important, but not to the level of civil disobedience like when we protested police abuse and systemic racism. Like a 4/10 judging by people’s actions.
2023 was the most deadly year for police shootings. Systemic racism and police abuse didn’t go away. Yet, no one is in the street.
Why do you think that is?
You first.
That’s… Not how it works?
We do it together…
So you support genocide. Got it.
You have quite a fantasy going for yourself.
Have you seen the debate?
Harris’s policy is a two-state solution. A ceasefire that by definition ends the genocide.
Trump’s solution is to, no joke, entirely wipe out Palestine.
How is this in any way comparable? You HAVE your anti-genocide option right now!
Guess you’re not voting then.
I was going to write in Aaron Bushnell for President but I think I’ll vote PSL
God this take is such a loser position. “Fine, I’ll just take my ball and play a different sport!”
Guess what dummy, you’re playing soccer with these Yahoos whether you like it or not so pick a fucking side and THEN ALSO DO MORE."
…burn the fucking barn down with the animals in it, ya dumb bystander…
Yeah, actually a lot of us are very aware of the game and how it’s played. Are you? You know most of us aren’t in swing states, right? So what is my protest vote going to affect again? My vote already doesn’t matter in a presidential election. It’s literally never mattered as long as I’ve been a voting adult.
Yeah I have picked a side. The anti-capitalist side. Which of these parties are anti -capitalist, again?
99% of y’all are calling out this user saying they’ll “do nothing and be smug” instead of voting, but y’all are just gonna vote blue and similarly be smug, do nothing, but continue to run defense for millionaires and one of the most powerful capitalist political parties in the world.
At least this user won’t be doing the latter.
Sitting on the sidelines while the world burns around you and complaining about it is highly effective. Withholding a protest vote (for either side) and supporting voter apathy is lame as hell.
At least when the capitalists are fucking you, regardless of who wins, you can smugly yell “I didn’t consent”.
What are you talking about? You know there are more than two candidates running, right? I’m literally saying I will be voting third party in a presidential election as I always have, and me voting third party has literally never mattered because the electoral college. Who’s withholding their vote? Although, that doesn’t mean I think voting in a bourgeois democracy is actually a meaningful expression of political power and organization.
You’re all hand winging about people on the left who just don’t want to vote Democrat, again even in states where the result is already known. You can’t even dare to criticize Democrats or send any message even in safe states like CA, WA, or NY. Because the handful of conscientious leftists are definitely gonna flip CA red or could definitely flip MS blue if they sucked it up and went for Kamala.
When the capitalists continue to fuck us , you’ll have done fuck all to push socialism because you spend all your time, again, running defense for one of the two most powerful capitalist institutions in the world.
In a fptp system, only the two main candidates matter once the primaries are done.
We know this.
In an electoral college system, only swing states matter.
But parties will pay attention if votes are siphoned from them. If you’re not in a swing state, a third party vote has basically no negative effect but may have a positive effect of influencing a major party.
I think it’s more than arguable that voting for Kamala in Louisiana or Mississippi or even potentially California is a bigger waste of a vote than voting third party.
Democracy exist so we don’t have to reach that point, please, go vote.
Half the presidents in my lifetime lost the popular vote.
I wish MAGA gave up this easily.
Agreed, but democracy isn’t built anew at every iteration, its assembled by the people that cares.
Genocide isn’t on the ballet
It is if you don’t vote for the two genocidal candidates. There are non genocidal choices, even if they’re just protest votes.
Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.
Don’t support genocide.
I haven’t seen a single soul on here support genocide. I do see a lot of people encouraging you to not take the easy way out.
As much as I want us to do something more than wash a finger at Netanyahu, there is not the support for anything more than voting for that.
If you don’t want to vote for genocide you need to move to a different country, because that’s never gonna change
I’m right where I need to be. 😉
Voting for either side is voting for Genocide. Not voting or voting third party when you’re left wing is voting for Trump which is genocide with extra bad things sprinkled on top. I’d say don’t kid yourself but I suspect that horse has already bolted
“Still not voting for genocide”
You say as you side with Hamas who openly calls for the genocide of the Jewish race.
They don’t do that these days, and all the people that did are dead at this point. The lifespan for Palestinians is pretty short.