voting 3rd party
not voting also sends a strong message
Pretty much just had this conversation. Except my point was if you want further left, then you have to give Dems consistent victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find votes. Remember Dems have had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for only 4 years of the last 24 years.
Well said sir
Left wing people walked away from the Democrats after 1968, and they had every righteous reason to. Did the Democrats suddenly start embracing actual leftism as a winning strategy as a result? Did a viable third party emerge? Did non electoral activism (much more powerful at the time, like a massive nationwide movement) finally take hold and upend the system to bring about real, sustained change?
Not exactly. We went, in that time, from “great society” and 1-income families who owned their home and sent kids to college, and the civil rights act and all that stuff, to Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush and the fuckin apocalypse that’s brought us the current corporate hellscape. The reality of working life in today’s America would be unrecognizable to most (white) people in the 1960s. The Democrats, after 24 years of losing elections (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter), finally tacked hard to the right and started being contenders again, but we lost a lot of ground and we’re only just now even starting to undo the damage. The party of JFK and Carter became the party of Clinton and Obama.
I actually think modern left wing people are aware of how terrifying Trump is, and would vote for Biden even if he wasn’t a significant step up from the low bar that is the modern Democrats. But yes, the drumbeat of MAGA imposters and the occasional confused leftist saying that if we just stop voting then everything will find a way to work itself out is certainly a thing that exists.
(ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter),
And when Gore and Hillary Clinton stuck their head a little bit left on climate change, they lost. And people wonder why Dems go to the center to find voters.
I have no particular love for either of the Clintons but I’m still sad about Gore. Between the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, real action on climate change before it was too late, and the underregulation that led to the 2008 financial crash, the whole fuckin world would be different if he’d been allowed into office after he won the election.
Just think how much further left we’d be if Hillary won. Instead Trump won and the Overton window went off the cliff. How’d those protest no-votes go? *They ended up being counter-productive.
As for Bill Clinton, he learned from Carter being voted out and Reagan and Bush winning. He played the position he had to play.
Gore won, and Hillary didn’t lose because of her views on climate change.
Dems are bad at politics, so they “go to the center” chasing republicans. They simply don’t realize they’re already a right wing party, and are chasing the extremist republicans towards far right fascism. Or more likely, they just don’t care so long as the corporate donor money keeps flowing in.
Oh we had president Gore? I must have missed that. Thanks 3rd party voters!
Dude, Dems constantly lose Congress. They’ve had control of all 3 house Senate presidency for 4 years of the last 24 years. Or 6 years for the last 44 years. That’s the math. So they go to the center to find votes. They don’t go center just because, they go there to find votes.
Unfortunely no, you’re once again incorrect.
Gore won the election, as was proven in numerous FL recounts. However, Fox News, among other mainstream corporate media orgs, had already called the election for GW Bush. This was actually the basis the corrupt Supreme Court used to give the presidency to Dubya in Bush v Gore, and the rest was history.
The Dems shifting to the right doesn’t have anything to do with finding votes - it’s all about finding the money. As you rightly point out, Dems are terrible at politics and lose elections when they shouldn’t. I mean just consider how reprehensible the Republican policies are, it’s so bad that Rs don’t even campaign on their platform, choosing instead to resort to divisive culture war distractions to motivate their voting base.
In the late 70s / early 80s, Dems realized they were losing because they were being massively outspent by republicans who had been courting big business, offering them deregulation in exchange for campaign financing. In over 96% of elections, the candidate who spent more on advertising won. Dems decided their only chance to remain relevant was to become a fundraising organization instead of an actual representative political party - thus, their policies became much more conservative in order to appease corporate donors and get the money flowing into their coffers too. Of course, they never raise as much as republicans, so this strategy is flawed to its core, but this is the reality of the modern day DNC, why it is in fact a controlled opposition party, and why they consistently fail to motivate any significant number of voters. Because they aren’t chasing voters - they’re chasing money.
Oh so we had president Gore? We can talk all day about recounts, but we did not have president Gore. You realllllyy don’t want to deal with that huh. Probably because of the next part: it was the third party voters that cost Gore the election. Thanks 3rd party voters!
The Dems shifting to the right doesn’t have anything to do with finding votes - it’s all about finding the money.
Lol they want to win elections, and that means voters.
As you rightly point out, Dems are terrible at politics
Lol I didn’t say that. At this point, well we’ll see what else I’ll bother replying to.
At the end of the day, the election is won by VOTERS. All this refusing to vote in protest and voting 3rd party in protest that I see so often is what costs Dems elections. And the hilarious part is, these protest votes and protest no-votes end up being wildly counter productive. They give the election to Bush and Trump, and guess what happens to the Overton window when that happens? The whole thing moves right.
So we’re down to: What do you, the informed left wing (I assume) voter do to move things left? What you can do is vote Dems. Give them consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find, wait for it, VOTES.
I think your reading comprehension may be hampered by your fixation on a 2 party system. Gore won the election, but had the presidency stolen from him by the media and Supreme Court.
In the recent elections which have had some of the highest turnout of voters over the time period we’re discussing, at most an abysmal 38% of eligible voters voted.
Perhaps consider that it’s the misguided policies Dems maintain in order to pursue those delicious legal bribe monies, as opposed to 3rd party candidates trying to do the right thing, that are costing the Dems election results. Blaming voters for actually exercising their right to vote is wholly undemocratic.
So, as an informed left wing voter who wishes to see more progressive policies enacted, I would pressure the Dems from the left to abandon those conservative policy positions if they want my vote. I would then vote for someone else if they maintain policies inconsistent with my beliefs. That’s how democracy works.
The greatest expansion of Rights in American history came in a period where Democrats had a very strong string of victories. From FDR to LBJ Democrats dominated in this country, it was also the period in which basically everything we consider the Cornerstone of our nation was developed. It’s also the period that the conservatives are trying to roll back as hard as humanly possible.
Conservatives including some Democrats.
that’s at a time when democrats were republicans and republicans were democrats; things change and so do political parties and whitewashing like this suggests either shallow understanding or willful misrepresentation.
It absolutely wasn’t. This is a time when the new deal was created. This is the time when the American middle class was created. Social Security. Civil Rights Act. Voting Rights Act. All during this period thanks to the Democrats. The Republicans who left the Democratic party are those that left because they didn’t like what the Democratic party was doing. The idea that both parties completely swapped places one day is an infantile understanding of that scenario.
it’s crystal clear from your response that you could use a refresher on your modern american history so i found this for you.
So I’m you’re confused your argument is that FDR did not Implement all the programs he implemented?
oic now; i think i can understand our disconnect now.
the democrats of the 1930’s have less in common with the democrats of today than they have with the republicans of today. pretending otherwise is either shallow understanding or willful misrepresentation.
You think the Democrats of FDR’s time have more in common with Republicans of today whose sole purpose is the dismantling of everything FDR did?
Talk about willful misinterpretation.
Democrats were never Republicans or vice versa. Prior to 1964 both parties had a diverse balance of Bigots. Democrats having a large contingent of racist southern Dixiecrats. Republicans had also long been the party of fascists and Nazi sympathizers. What happened post 1964 was not a party or ideological switch per se. Democrats just ditched the bigots courting a much bigger potential voting block. Republicans having lost the chance to court the same voting block instead courted the bigots fleeing the Democratic Party. It was a concentration of bigots. Not a change of ideology.
it’s crystal clear from your response that you could use a refresher on your modern american history so i found this for you.
That doesn’t contradict anything I said. Care to try again?
if you’re still not understanding; you’re beyond any help i can render.
And during those four years they only had a super majority that could overcome the GOPs automatic use of the filibuster for a very short period of time when Independents caucused with the Dems, and even then there were some holdouts that watered down the best parts of what they were able to get through.
It didn’t work in 1968. It didn’t work in 1980. It didn’t work in 1984. It didn’t work in 1988. It didn’t work in 2000. It didn’t work in 2016. It didn’t work in 2020…
Remember Dems have only had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years.
And when you take it to a filibuster-proof majority they have had even less control than that.
Filibuster proof majority for 4 months out of the last 44 years. Not 4 years, 4 months.
And we got the ACA, one of the most positive, transformative laws of the last two decades. Did it go as far as we wanted? Nope, but it has changed lives for the better across the country. 4 months.
That’s some abused spouse logic. Keep rewarding the people abusing your trust? Maybe they’ll recognize you this time? Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don’t think the left will stop voting for them. Maybe they just don’t care. Either way it makes no sense to reward that behavior.
Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don’t think the left will stop voting for them.
Maybe it’s because Dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for a measly 4 years of the last 24 years. If you want to go back further then it’s 6 years out of the last 44 years. That’s right, Dems have had control for a measly 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years.
When they don’t have control of all 3 (house, senate, presidency), they need to negotiate with the GOP to pass anything. And you wonder why they have to meet in the middle when they don’t have power? The GOP even shut down the government under Obama.
And when they lose elections (do the math, they’ve lost control for 20 years out of the last 24 years. Or 38 years out of the last 44 years.) when they lose elections, they go to the center to find votes. Because that’s where the voters are. Every time they try to move a little left (Gore, Hilary Clinton) they lose. So what does the next guy do? He goes to the center because that’s where the votes go.
You desperately need to learn what’s going on.
So what do you do if you want things to go left? Give Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Let them know that they can go left without losing like Gore and Hilary Clinton did.
So we should vote for them because they’re out of touch with so much of the country that they’re ineffective?
If you want the Dems to move left, you do that by giving them consistent and overwhelming victories. Not 4 years out of the last 24 years. Not 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years. I just went through the chronology with somebody else in this exact chain, take a look. https://lemmy.world/comment/10617871
You still haven’t said anything to explain this theory of them moving left if the left votes for them no matter what. Why would they worry about satisfying a voting block that automatically votes for them?
Lol yes I did. I see you didn’t read what I linked. Every now and then they try to move left, and whenever they do they lose the election. So guess what? Next election they move to the center to find voters. So guess what you can do? Make Dems win consistently and overwhelmingly so they don’t lose when they go left.
They’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, and you’re surprised they go to the center to find votes? Lol.
You brought up 2 centrist politicians as examples of moving left. That’s not an argument.
Clinton was not a move to the left! The Clinton wing is the right wing of the Democrats. Both Clintons, are the prime example of the Democrats being the Republican party of 8 years ago. And Gore would have been a continuation of Bill. Trump being the other candidate is the only reason she isn’t seen as a right wing candidate. A lot of her liabilities, particularly with battleground states, in 2016 was her being the champion of every right wing policy an appreciable amount of Democrats signed on to.
Ok let’s go through this chronologically.
Bill Clinton: When you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. You have to run center when running against an incumbent, so that’s what he did.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned from Gore? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit with the Map Room to fight climate change. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And you’re amazed that they don’t run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes.
Those are extremely simplistic takes for why Gore and Clinton lost. If memory serves me right climate change didn’t have much to do with either and it had more to do with people feeling they were out-of-touch wonks. Bush was “the guy you could have a beer with” even though he didn’t drink.
And they run to the center because there are actually voters there. The left is noisy online but there’s not enough of us spread out far enough to move the needle. America is not a progressive country, and we need to get used to that.
Simplistic because I’m not going to bother to write more. From what I know Gore was a decent step left, not just climate change. By 2016 there was enough attention on climate change that was the step left.
And they run to the center because there are actually voters there
This is what I say ad nauseum. But I think there are enough left
voterspeople to move the needle. The problem is they don’t vote in protest, or they vote 3rd party in protest. They’re waiting to fall in love with a big left candidate, and I’m saying that’s not going to magically appear, you need baby steps (which they don’t like so they protest).This is the whole “Dems fall in love, Republicans fall in line”. Those Republicans show up every time and they move the needle because of that.
I’ve given up believing there’s enough that can move the needle, because even if they all voted for decades they’re crammed into high population states and districts so their power is diluted to ineffectiveness.
Unless we get a mass migration to low population states of lefties this is going to be how our politics works.
Of course when I bring this up the reaction is “But there’s nothing to do there!”
It’s more like choosing your enemy then a business transaction.
Yep. If we want far left, we need to do what the far right did. Vote consistently and persistently for wing candidates and then vote for the extreme when they chance a run.
Anyone pretending this is bad is a short sighted fool at best. We will never magically get left wing extremists. They need a foundation of left wing to build off and that means compromise and frankly if you’re against this compromise you’re not a leftist, you’re an idealist idiot that will be played.
Except that is the opposite of how the Right works. Contrary to what Liberals tell themselves, Republican voters need to be wooed, Democrat voters fall in line. If a national Republican candidate isn’t anti-abortion, the evangelicals might not show up, if they aren’t anti-tax and anti-welfare, they loose “business Republicans”, and they need to scaremonger about things such as immigration to rile up other parts of their base. That is why you don’t have every Republican presidential candidate saying things like “Look, we have to appeal to moderate Democrats. That is why we have to expand welfare, access to abortion, and make it easier for immigrants to come in. If you believe in conservative values, he is still the lesser evil than the Democrat, despite being pro-welfare and immigration, and you only have two choices”
You are reversing the causality as why Republicans don’t have the same level of “Vote Red no mater who” and voter shaming and have to keep moving right to keep their base engaged.
Your reality bubble is incompatible with the rest of the world’s. Republicans need to be placated. There is no need to follow through. They always blame others.
Your attempt at casing the democrats as the same thing is the basis for bothsideism. All you need to do is respond with some whataboutism to determine the thickness of your bubble
It’s not both sides-ism. I am saying that the Republicans can’t guilt-trip their voters, so they aren’t constantly moving to the left and having platforms that their voters hate, relying on their only appeal being lesser evilism. It is because the Democrats need to constantly move right for their donors, and can in some respects ignore the wishes of their base through the logic of “lesser evils” that Biden can continue building Trump’s border wall, try to outflank Trump on the right on immigration, and continue to support genocide, when 4 years ago, liberals could understand these policies are fascist.
“Pro-democracy conservatives” in an antifascist coalition, y’all crack me up sometimes.
Some Republican Secretaries of State, Mike Pence, military leaders, conservatives in the Justice Department, and similar not-real-inspiring-politically people were some of the most important ones who put the brakes on Trump’s previous attempt at a for-real fascist takeover. Without them, I think there is an excellent chance that it would have worked, and we’d be currently living in a society which doesn’t have functioning elections or protections for political speech in media or on the internet.
I do understand that our elections and our media right now are not fully free. But that doesn’t mean every point on that spectrum is the same. People on the left sometimes like to say Reagan or Bush or Trump 1 or Obama or Biden are so oppressive that it all might as well be fascism, but people who lived through real totalitarian rule further down on the spectrum would tell you that no, no it is certainly not.
Any of those Never-Trump Republicans going to vote for Biden? They seem to be very silent.
Yeah. Team sports is a hell of a drug.
Check out The Bulwark. It’s basically a bunch of people who still consider themselves conservatives but exclusively vote Democrat because Republicans are insane and/or fascists.
And mad props to them for going against the cult. They’re still moist likely regressive assholes, but they’re principled regressive assholes and I can respect that.
It’s really interesting to see their insight on politics. I get the impression I wouldn’t really like any of them in person, but their sense of humor about the time they spent working on GOP campaigns is endearing.
Eh. This describes my Dad, I guess. Life time “fiscal conservative” that voted Republican his entire life except 2016 and on. Possibly 2008 too, he was outraged at Palin and the Tea Party.
They exist.
But he was never a republican for the social conservatism side of things. Never watched Fox News or Rush Limbaugh or any of that garbage. And votes blue down ticket too because he accepts that the entire party is corrupted now.
This is exactly why I can respect older, actual, conservatives and not the hate/fear driven fox viewers like my own father…
The older conservatives generally came to their conclusions in some ways “on their own” while current magas are just being emotionally manipulated and propagandized like crazy…
Obligatory: I FUCKING HATE PROPAGANDISTS!
I’ve never voted in an election where I wasn’t voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don’t get nice things in America.
Genocide as a policy you can respectfully disagree with
The only illusion is that genocide was ever not an American policy. Talk to a Native American about it.
Wokely voting for the genocide guy
Trump or Biden, they will support Israel. At least I am sure Biden won’t drop a nuke.
Republicans say the dumbest shit ever, but it’s also incredibly stupid to believe that would actually happen. Nuking Gaza would mean fallout hitting Israel, it’s not something that would ever be approved.
That is literally why tactical nuclear weapons were invented.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_nuclear_weapon
And the president does not need approval to drop a nuke.
and where have they been used against people?
Not really how nuclear weapon fallout works
Considering how close they are, yes it is. If you’re going to be pedantic, at least explain how I’m wrong. Regardless, Israel doesn’t want Palestine itself irradiated because they plan on stealing that land anyway.
If you care about Palestinians as you claim, you should listen to them.
The Palestinians understand that however bad Biden may be, Trump would be worse. Those are the only two options that exist.
Which pro-Palestine group is endorsing Biden?
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The MAGA had slowly coming into view *chefs kiss *
I’m looking at my calendar and wondering, it’s not November right? It’s still June, or isn’t it? As an outsider, why are American leftists basically being called fascist enablers when they are only protesting and demanding reasonable, better policies? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Now they are demonized for it, at the same time I’ve seen nothing here last week when Biden enacted a right wing immigration law with an executive order. So it’s okay to try to sway republicans, even though the GOP has racist views on lock as their USP.
It’s like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it’s totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
I’m far left. Anti capitalist. Anti authoritarian. But, there are groups on the left or masking of leftists very heavily pushing people not to vote for joe biden in the upcoming elections. They, whether real leftists or not, are not just protesting. I don’t love joe biden. I didn’t even vote for him the first time. I knew he would win my state and voted 3rd party. But mass rhetoric to protest vote for no one or someone else risks leaving us with donald trump.
It’s called pressure to force him to make change. He’s got plenty of time to not support a genocide before November.
? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Yes, congratulations, you have suddenly become aware that building support for an election starts slightly sooner than a week before election day.
It’s like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it’s totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
Have you not noticed that elections in the US are typically won at or under single digit percentage points? If you’re 3% of a coalition that wins by 1%, you’re big enough to sink the entire coalition if you throw a hissy fit over being asked to join up against a literal fascist, but not big enough to warrant losing the support of, say, 40% of the coalition.
So yeah, both “The far-left is a small part of the coalition” and “If they don’t vote for the coalition, there’s a good chance we lose and fascism wins” are not mutually fucking exclusive.
Yes, congratulations, you have suddenly become aware that building support for an election starts slightly sooner than a week before election day.
Thanks, Pug. I wasn’t aware.
But to be serious, these posts like yours started at the primaries, even longer before the election than now, with the same messaging: Leftists that don’t want an even bigger shift to the right in democratic policies should not complain, or else they are at fault for Trump term number two. That’s crazy. Maybe, just maybe, the DNC can do something themselves to prevent Trump. Instead of blackmailing supporters, they could do something these supporters like.
If you’re 3% of a coalition that wins by 1%, you’re big enough to sink the entire coalition if you throw a hissy fit over being asked to join up against a literal fascist, but not big enough to warrant losing the support of, say, 40% of the coalition.
If someone is only 3% or even lower of your base, but you depend on them or else you don’t get the majority, these 3% don’t just get a 3% say in the coalition. The majority has to make bigger concessions than they want. That’s how 2+ party coalitions work in other parliaments. Smaller parties aren’t just there to be dragged by a chain to vote for everything the bigger party/parties want them to, just for little treats here or there.
Also, I don’t think only 3% want a ceasefire or don’t want republican immigration policies enacted by their own candidate, it’s considerably more people.
what the fuck are you on
He does nothing but post negative about leftists. This is just who he is. A sheepdog alienating everyone to the left of him and herding others to the right.
I’ve tried to get them to understand that maybe their strategy just isn’t viable if their goal is to get more people to vote for Biden, as they instead serve as a giant wedge, but they basically said they didn’t care and leftist votes don’t matter.
They have actively contributed to Lemmy.world’s Red Scare, where even Anarchists are called Tankies.
Sounds like Anarcho-NATOism, like from the orbit of Vaush, fits the bill.
HAHAHAHAHA! Jfc…wasn’t familiar with the term, so looked it up.
Google in it’s infinite wisdom popped this up as the first result that actually had anything to do with the search term.
The likes section is obviously pretty biased, and also very homophobic.
classic liberal doing the GOPs work for them
I get what you mean, but there is a real problem among the left. In Germany we had these massive protests against Nazis and for democracy. It was beautiful, finally all kinds of people united against anti-democratic sentiments. We had green voters, conservative voters, labor voters etc. all walking for the same cause. Except for the ultra left. They had to boycott the protests because there were so many CDU (conservative) voters among the people. Way to fuck up something beautiful for something so petty.
This kind of behavior is exploited by the right. It’s way easier to unite people via hatred than it is to unite the left.
Most of you aren’t leftists.
A desire to see fascism defeated and have my life end somewhere other than a concentration camp, even if it means a milquetoast neoliberal wins?
I’m voting for Biden, but I’m under no illusion that neo liberals can fix fascism. Seeing Macron faulter to a more powerful Le Pen should serve as a warning to progressives.
Eliminating fascism isn’t on the table right now. Your choices are do nothing about it or actively promote it.
Do you seriously think that everything’s peachy after Trump loses? That all the fascists just stop pursuing political power like after the emperor was killed in Return of the Jedi?
Maybe we should give Trump force lightning
Biden’s meme-team hard at work I see
Given the attitudes on this platform I’m bracing for the downvotes, but I genuinely wish you and others like you would stop trying to (nearly daily) insult/shame others into voting the way you want. You should watch this video by Bernie Sanders about winning votes for Biden on merit and logic. Note that he never uses insults, and the reasoned arguments Sanders has been making for months convinced me to stop telling people to vote 3rd party months ago. I’m now willing to ask people to vote Biden in spite of my reservations - not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that incessantly attacking everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive. I won’t speak for others but I was won over by calm reason, not being called slurs every time I opened Lemmy.
not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
Oh, here I thought my argument was something else.
It’s funny, though, because when you emphasize that Trump can’t be allowed to win, the chorus of the MLs and their defenders is “HE CAN’T JUST BE NOT TRUMP, THE LESSER EVIL IS STILL EVIL”.
You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that frequently insulting everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive.
I’m not trying to attract MLs. MLs and their useful idiots are lost causes. This isn’t about convincing people who are already set in their ways - it’s about warding off the braindead points of propagandists so everyone can see what they are before making the mistake of buying in.
“I’m allowed to call people idiots, fascists, etc. basically daily because I can justify it.” Everyone willing to dehumanize and denigrate others has what they believe to be validating reasons. I can’t stop you from trying to win people over by insulting everyone who disagrees, but I wanted to be a voice asking for kinder, calmer discourse a la the Bernie video I posted.
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I can read your post history. I’m getting tired making the same point but insults are, as near as I can tell, your go-to and I don’t even know if you try anything else. You’ve insulted people disagreeing with you several times just today. I mean, look at how dismissive you are (kindness doesn’t work, flower power) of me and Senator Sander’s approach of using calmly delivered facts to win over those who will likely decide the upcoming election. It’s an attempt to make sure people are convinced you are a true defender of democracy and that your modus operandi of attacks are the only reasonable way to do it properly.
But whatever. I’ve made my point, given a solid example of what I think is a far more attractive approach that has worked for me and others, and that’s all I wanted to add to the conversation. Feel free to reiterate that I’m a idiotic hippy who will usher in unending fascism.
I can read your post history. I’m getting tired making the same point but insults are, as near as I can tell, your go-to and I don’t even know if you try anything else. You’ve insulted people disagreeing with you several times just today.
Just today? Funny thing is, today the only two arguments I’ve gotten into are “Is letting fascists into power actually bad?” (it is) and “Is genocide of Ukrainians wrong enough to do literally anything about?” (it is).
Sorry if you find that a disagreement worthy of respectful dialogue, but personally, I find neither fascism nor genocide to be respectable.
Just today?
What did I say about being able to read your post history?
- “But hey, since when are fascists internally consistent?”
- “Democracy is. I didn’t realize that this metaphor was getting too complex for you.”
- Here’s your post from today where you call LibLefts “useful idiots who serve above (authoritarians) only to be purged when the revolution is complete”. You also say they support terrorism, and their only solution to community violence is lynch mobs.
- “It doesn’t matter. They don’t believe in democracy, much less convincing people. They’re vanguardist fascists, after all.”
- “Wow. Literally saying the quiet part out loud - “As long as the Democrats are not 100% in line with my views, it’s okay to endorse inaction and the takeover of a fascist regime on the pretext that the Democrats Aren’t Good Enough™””
- “I’m used to tankie whinging about how they can’t support fascist regimes without being called out.”
- “The literal opposite of the truth. But I guess the guilt of having MLs backstab the leftist opposition so Fascist Spain could win hurts your point, huh?”
- “Oh, they see the connection. They just want Republicans in office. They don’t give a fuck about the suffering of minorities, they just want the worst possible option in power so they can feel smug about “not supporting the system”.”
Those are all examples from just the last 2 hours, across multiple threads. The tragic thing is, I probably agree with a lot of your points. You really do appear to want to deliver those points with as much dehumanization and dismissal as possible however.
Ironically, for how often this dude calls others foreign plants, he uses British language like whinging, which in the US is spelled whining.
What did I say about being able to read your post history?
You mistake me. When I said “Just today?” I meant it as a preface to “I’ve only been in two arguments today, and neither of them were with causes worthy of respect - namely, support for fascism, and support for genocide”
Here’s your post from today where you call LibLefts “useful idiots who serve above (authoritarians) only to be purged when the revolution is complete”.
That’s a meme, man, of what is effectively a horoscope for political nerds, and it makes fun of all the quadrants.
“The literal opposite of the truth. But I guess the guilt of having MLs backstab the leftist opposition so Fascist Spain could win hurts your point, huh?”
I’m sorry, how am I supposed to respond to a blatant bad faith effort to spread historical misinformation? “That’s definitely true”?
not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
I hear all the time “Biden can’t run on being not Trump”.
And Biden is great. He’s done a crap load.
Biden has done some good things. I disagree that he’s great. If you want specifics, the first 90 seconds of that Sanders video is him detailing several grievances I agree with in a clear, concise and fairly complete list. However, to quote Sanders: “But while we may have our disagreements with Biden, it’s important to take a minute to think about what a Trump presidency would mean to our country, and in fact the world.”
I know what needs to be done which is why I stopped encouraging/supporting 3rd party or undecided voting months ago. I could go on a lot longer, but that’s the bottom line. I’ll join the effort to stop Trump - just don’t ask me to agree that my concerns are invalid or have been adequately addressed.
Lol see there it is. You chose to focus on the “not Trump”. I may watch it later, but you see? I talk about how Biden’s done great, and you talk about how he’s not Trump.
So you won’t spend 90 seconds to watch the criticisms laid out, but you’ll take the time to tell me they are all either nonexistent or invalid?
That’s not what I said, so now you’re horribly bad faith and I’m no longer willing to converse with you. Funny how you emphasis “not insult/shame” and then pull out that absolutely horrendous bad faith move.
(FYI I’m on mobile and not watching at the moment.)
No. You said “Biden is great”. I said, “I acknowledge he’s done some good, I still disagree, and here’s a concise list of reasons why. In spite of that, I’m willing to get on board to fight Trump”. You replied (and this is an exact quote): “I talk about how Biden’s done great, and you talk about how he’s not Trump”, completely disregarding that I directly addressed why I don’t think Biden is great. I did NOT just talk about how he’s not Trump.
How am I arguing in bad faith? That is the sequence of events, and it’s easily confirmed. I’m also not calling you out just because you didn’t watch the video. I’m saying you didn’t watch AND disregarded that I explicitly gave you the video as a source for my disagreement with you to instead say I focus on “not Trump”. Now you’ve doubled down with a response that paints me as arguing in bad faith and linking that to insults/abuse. I never insulted you. Disagreeing is not inherently a slur or abusive, nor is pointing out the holes in an rebuttal. If you don’t have time to watch the vid that’s understandable but wait to respond until you do or at least don’t say I only focused on “not Trump” when that’s provably not the case.
No. People upset with genocide are not Trump supporters. This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide. No matter what hat they wear.
I literally tittered like a schoolgirl observing how many yelling-guys from the meme are in this thread with their short top level comments. Taken in aggregate it is funny to me like “oh shit this meme hit a nerve it looks like”
Nobody said don’t be upset with the genocide. They said let’s elect the guy who’s doing a poor job trying to stop one genocide, and not let the guy win who wants 10 genocides.
Lmao no. You can try to walk it back but we’ve all been here. We’re not dumb and we weren’t born yesterday. Nobody is refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a country. It’s because he supports and covers for them committing a genocide.
Conflating protestors with trump voters is just the cherry on top. This is what genocide denial looks like.
Single issue NON-voters are every bit as bad a Trump supporters when it comes to an election year.
This isn’t prison reform.
It’s a fucking genocide. That’s not something you just hand waive.
Says the person that wasn’t even aware of any of it before last October. Don’t bother denying it. Your comment history didn’t mention shit about it until well after.
Also, I’ve seen first-hand how it has been explained to you time-and-again, how this works politically. How congress is pushing this. How it would be happening with or without the US. How Biden doesn’t call the shots there.
Yet you STILL- even with all of this explained to you, find a way to turn this into a push to stop people from voting.
I can call you what I truly believe you are here, but it’s hopefully implied within the facts of what you’re doing.
Oh that’s right, you think Lemmy is the entire world and we’ve all been here for decades. But neither thing is true. And this is just a deflection from the fucking genocide. A version of no true Scotsman.
Riiiiight. I’ll tell you what. You go ahead and keep your vote. Lock it away safe so no boogeyman can take it from you…
And when November’s results come in, and you see that your withholding it did absolutely nothing at all to help anyone in Palestine, you go ahead and take a bow. Be proud that you stood tall and proudly- for absolutely nothing and quite possibly hurt a fuckton of people with your selfishness. Because you’re getting genocide whether you vote or not. And you’re getting genocide regardless of who you vote for. Because guess what, and pay attention this time-
• BIDEN DOESN’T CALL THE SHOTS IN ISRAEL.
• GENOCIDE WILL HAPPEN WITHOUT ANY SUPORT FROM THE US.
• CONGRESS HAS MORE TO DO WITH IT THAN BIDEN DOES.
You need to take this shit seriously. This isn’t a fucking joke. There are people in America that are going to suffer. And either you know this already and don’t care, or you simply don’t believe the hundreds of people that have been telling you this for MONTHS.
This isn’t something to take a stand on man. Democracy is at stake. And I don’t think you understand how bad it will be.
Yeah he’s not though, because there isn’t one in “palestine”
I wonder if I will find “blue MAGA” in your comment history
I wonder if I will find support for any type of direct action on behalf of Palestine there, or if it begins and ends with not voting for Biden in November
Brb. I will check a few pages, I’m not planning on going through the whole thing
Edit: Wait, what the heck man, I was wrong; you seem for-real. No “blue MAGA” and there is this kind of stuff which seems pretty real and productive on behalf of Palestinian people. Now I’m just confused about your intent.
Okay, so to take the conversation in a serious direction, then:
Lmao no. You can try to walk it back but we’ve all been here. We’re not dumb and we weren’t born yesterday.
This is, more than anything, what made me think you were a troll. You sound like a campaign commercial. Just say what you want to say, and leave the “We’re not dumb, Joe Biden” while looking straight into the camera, out of it.
Nobody is refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a country. It’s because he supports and covers for them committing a genocide.
I think the idea that Biden is happy about Israel committing genocide, and wants them to continue, is immediately obviously not true. It seems clear that he supports Israel the country (which, he shouldn’t) but not the genocide that they are currently doing. He’s still not shipping them any more weapons since mid-May, as far as I know, and he’s clearly pushing for a cease fire and humanitarian aid. Is that enough? Fuck no. He should have done all that in mid October, and he should be taking Netanyahu to the Hague. But it’s also different from choosing to hit the gas on the genocide.
I think giving him shit for it in the present to try to make him stop the support he’s still giving them (which is, it looks to me, what most of your comments on the issue are advocating for) sounds great. Up to and including threatening not to vote for him in November if he doesn’t do X, Y, and Z.
I’m not sure if I would say this to him directly as like a “commitment” – for exactly the reasons that you’re saying – but I plan to vote for him in November regardless, because of not wanting 10 Gazas all over the world with full-throated support from a second Trump administration. But I don’t actually have any issue with what it looks like you’re mostly saying, and I wouldn’t really apply this meme to you even as pertains to you saying to give Biden resistance about Gaza. I think most of what the meme is targeted at is people who are saying they will never vote for Biden, and (various made up flaws unrelated to Gaza), and Trump’s not that bad anyway, and who even cares about putting pressure on him in the present. That kind of thing seems bad. What you’re saying as far as I can tell makes perfect sense to me.
Well I’m glad you at least seem to realize that. I’m overrun with people who just shove Trump in my face and demand that I either declare my vote for Biden or be labeled a trump supporter. But an electoral protest is useless if you’re not otherwise willing to vote for the person, and you don’t let them know you exist. But, crucially, you also have to be willing to refrain from voting for them.
As to his Israel policy, it’s not as good as you think. He says stuff about Netanyahu but he is still sending ammunition for everything except the 500 and 2000 pound bombs. When Israel bombs the evacuation zones Biden, Sullivan, and Blinken are always out there right away with Israel’s denial/excuse. Even when our own intelligence agencies rate the claims as “low confidence”. Then when the claim is publicly debunked they just go quiet. They also haven’t removed the special Leahy process Israel enjoys. Several former state department staffers have said any other country would have been cut off by The Leahy law and the FSA. Finally, even with Hamas at the table, accepting a framework, Biden always blames them for the deals falling through. They’re doing it right now.
If there is no accountability for Israel then they have no reason to change what they’re doing. And I have no reason to vote for someone whose shown me they could support that kind of violence. Especially combined with some of the most extreme border policies we’ve ever had. Which makes the entire premise that this is some kind of anti fascist coalition laughable. Trump may seize power, but you can vote fascism in as well and right now Biden isn’t looking very anti fascist.
As to his Israel policy, it’s not as good as you think.
It’s fuckin terrible. I didn’t say it was good. I said I think he is unhappy that the Gaza “war” is happening at all. If you want to blame him for not taking the step from there to saying “and that’s why fuck Israel, they won’t get any more weapons and we support the ICC warrant” (ideally after climbing in a time machine so he can do it in October or November of last year), I can get behind you on that idea, too.
Especially combined with some of the most extreme border policies we’ve ever had.
What’s your take on my summary of the border situation here?
I didn’t think you thought it was good, I just think it’s worse than you think it is. His statements have been calculated to give an impression. His actions have not matched that impression.
I think your take on the border situation is wrong. It’s certainly not unblocking any time soon but an illegal and cruel EO is not the answer. This would be a great time for voter outreach and education. It’s even campaign season.
What would be the answer, to you? I’m genuinely asking.
Yeah… most of you are. Because runners that aren’t- aren’t screaming at the top of their lungs to not vote.
Only an absolute idiot would think that not voting will bring change. And I’d like to imagine that TRUE leftists aren’t idiots.
This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide.
You want to clarify where Israel’s ongoing genocide is defended or deflected from?
Another PugJesus post bashing leftists.
Its all he does.
Apparently, bashies aren’t for fashies. Bashies are for us. 😭
The only problem with the meme is he’s calling tankies leftists.
Tankies aren’t leftists.
Edit: cry more, tankies
Actually I don’t think that is the problem with the post because it perfectly illustrates that many who bash tankies do so as a proxy to bash leftists. This is just a mask off moment.
Anyone who understands what tankies are, and doesn’t Bash them, is an idiot, a fascist, or both.
Except the term is being misused by bashers to simply bash the left. We know what the definition is, it’s just being misapplied, just like communist was a misapplied label.
You’re right about a term being misapplied, but you have it in reverse. The post is misapplying the word “leftist”, instead of using the word “tankie”. It’s not a mask off moment, because it’s not revealing a hidden truth. So the real question is: are you stupid or just dishonest?
They were thinking of leftists when they decided to go bashing, hence their mix-up.
For that to be true, they’d need to have observed a large contingent of leftists arguing that it’d be better for people to vote third party instead of for Biden. But what they’ve been seeing are tankies, who aren’t leftists. You’re mixing the word with the concept.
If I look at 🌸 and think “bird” and say “I love when birds fall from trees” I’m not saying that a 🐦 falling down dead is a thing that brings me joy.
But then again, maybe I shouldn’t expect you to understand, since you lot have trouble figuring out the difference between a word and the thing the word means. It’s a standard error of definitions.
Edit: to further the point, even if we consider the set we call “Leftists” to include what I call “tankies” there’s nothing wrong with the meme, because they’s criticizing a particular group doing a particular thing and I agree with the criticism. It doesn’t matter what words they uses because I agree with the base concepts they’s trying to convey. And that’s the part that matters. Fuck your word games.
There’s more then one problem: the Democrats that support a cease fire are not in frame because they’re not sitting at home watching Biden.
Not in picture: the majority of Democrats that support a cease fire.
Biden supports a ceasefire. The only people resisting a ceasefire are Netanyahu and the Republican party.
He supports a ceasefire only if his Israeli overlords accept it. He won’t attempt to use any leverage such as our munitions supply to Israel to attempt to force it though.
Still far better than the orange man who would outright assist Israel with exterminating Palestine.
Biden has been improving his position, but he needs encouragement. That is why I say there are Democrats not in picture: a bunch of us are still protesting and writing. The letter responses have improved from “we need to take out Hamas” to “we we’re working with coalitions to get aide in”.
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Protesting against genocide means we should be starved to death? What’s next? Vote correctly or get the rack?
While they exist, real ones are actually fairly rare.
Most of what you see on the Internet, are Russian/conservative operatives trying to convince people not to vote antifascist in November.
You better watch out PugJesus, I just got accused of being a bot in another thread for having this point of view 😂
I’m used to tankie whinging about how they can’t support fascist regimes without being called out.
I hit em with the “maybe your views are just unpopular?” and have yet to see a response…
The response was probably “<admin> banned elliot_crane” from .ml + hexbear, and the ban conveniently didn’t federate to .world’s modlog
lmao I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened a long time ago… I’ve been calling out this shit for months.
It doesn’t matter. They don’t believe in democracy, much less convincing people. They’re vanguardist fascists, after all.
If the ‘anti-trump coalition’ consists of people voting entirely to avoid a trump presidency, why does the coalition building only consist of capitulation to the views of the anti-trump republicans
Because a split on the left, in this case, guarantees a right win. You should, however fight for what you think is right on all days of the year, not just on election season.
If “we have to vote trump out of office” is the platform and everything else is immaterial, why not run a more progressive campaign instead of trying to win the vote of people who won’t vote Dem again
Because biden is not progressive, and since votes on the left are not realy going to trump, he is trying to win votes at the “center-right”. To the risk of loosing some votes on the left, yes.
This. What you can vote for in the election depends heavily on what happens between elections.
“Antifascist” holy shit that’s funny.
Absolutely. Remember everyone: some of the people wearing your colors are only pretending to be on your side.
Don’t evaluate sources for loyalty; evaluate ideas for validity.
Know your own values, and get good at thinking critically. Then double check everything that you think, and that others are saying, to find out if there are any bugs or malicious code, changing outcomes away from what it should be per your values.
Yup.
I fully support a cease fire, but I also put ZERO blame on Biden for what another democratic country does.
People blaming Biden for Israel are either trolls or massive morons that do not understand geopolitics.
People really put America in the center of everything and act like they must do everything while also being angry at them for being the international police.
Russia has a hand in Israel and the middle eastern conflicts as does China and India and Saudi Arabia. Why is Joe Biden responsible for everything? Congress is more responsible if anything deserves scrutiny.
Calling him Genocide Joe because of another country’s actions just exposes someone’s stupidity and inability to view situations as complexly as they actually are.
That said fuck Israel and Bibi can suck my turds I’d toss a brick at that fascist fuck if given the chance.
Exactly this. And they’re beyond reasoning with. Best to just ask them who has a better chance to win in November and watch them squirm out of the conversation.
It’s a lot easier to call them out for what they are this way than it is to argue with them.
