it seems like you are taking this comment of mine personally,
Maybe a little. I get defensive when I think people are interpreting what I’m saying in a bad way or in a way I don’t agree with. I’m sorry if I overreacted.
they secretly have some insecurities and the only way others will ever love them is if they first resolve those insecurities
Then we arrive at the crux of the issue, because depending on the insecurity a person may have, it might be very hard that insecurity. Take for example someone who is overweight. An overweight person might be hesistant to go to the beach, or wear a t-shirt when they are at the beach. Is this not a signal that they are insecure about their weight and don’t feel comfortable in their skin? They haven’t said they are insecure, but their actions and behaviour point to it.
Misunderstanding can go both ways. The fact alone that we seem to be, to a point, continuously talking past each other
I do sometimes have trouble expressing what I think because I try to be as concise as possible, otherwise I could write paragraphs and go on and on about it. I try to avoid that.
I’m not seeing the evidence to support that with the generality about valuing yourself making others value you more
But that isn’t my claim, perhaps I misspoke (miswrote?) A better way to say it would be that unless you recognise value in yourself, it will be harder for others to recognise it in you. Recognise is a better word because it implies that value is there, it just needs to be seen. If you have some things about you that you like, and you identify them, then you might be inclined to highlight those things. A silly example that comes to mind is that if you think you look good in a particular colour, then you might be inclined to wear that colour more often. Or going back to the overweight example, if there are certain clothes you can wear and look at yourself in the mirror and think “you know what? I look good in those clothes” you might wear them more often, and put yourself out there, rather than hide yourself because you think you look unattractive no matter what.
A personal example, I think I have a tendency to talk to much and about things that people may not care about. So instead of feeling outwardly insecure (which I am a lot of the time) I put effort into actively listening and then talk a lot about what the person is interested in. I guess I opened this can of worms when I used the word “value”, but to continue with it: I try not to see myself as an annoying person, but as someone who likes to talk about things, has broad general knowledge and I show this value by engaging with what the person is saying and being a good conversational partner.
I would say that has some value, but without follow-through
But that’s my point, that there should be follow-through. Recognising value in one self -> presenting that value to others. I see now that value was perhaps the wrong word, but I homnestly can’t think of a better one.
Maybe a little. I get defensive when I think people are interpreting what I’m saying in a bad way or in a way I don’t agree with. I’m sorry if I overreacted.
You’re good, I just wanted to make sure it was clear I was not in it to attack you and was doing my best not to go that route. And I can relate, for what it’s worth. I couldn’t begin to count the number of times it has seemed or felt like I’m Sisyphus trying to communicate something; as in, it can feel like I’m trying very hard to go nowhere. Sometimes things just click and sometimes it feels like I’m communicating in another language, and anywhere in-between.
That said, in trying to read closely what you have said most recently, it sounds like we are mostly agreement on the spirit of it, but might disagree in the implementation somewhat. If I try to drill it down to how I feel most strongly about it, I’m thinking about this from a standpoint of individualist vs. collectivist, rugged individual success vs. communal interdependence - and what I primarily take issue with, which may never have been your meaning in the first place, is when advice appears to land on the individualist side of those things. I know that whether it’s myself or someone else, simply having the kind of views we have here does not make us immune to propaganda or make us suddenly clear of all individualist tendencies of thinking that have been instilled in many of us from birth. So some part of me is a bit wary on that being validated further rather than unlearned. And I find that in my understanding of things, dating and romance still appears to be an area heavy with individualist rhetoric and a sort of unspoken “become a better rugged individualist and then you’ll get yours”. I may have overreacted in caution to what you said because of similarities I thought I saw in it relative to other rhetoric I’ve seen.
is when advice appears to land on the individualist side of those things
I totally get that. The internet has been poisoned by the MGTOW and Jordan Peterson shit that any kind of mention of “working on yourself” may remind one of the “clean your room stuff”. And I am not coming from that angle at all.
And I find that in my understanding of things, dating and romance still appears to be an area heavy with individualist rhetoric and a sort of unspoken “become a better rugged individualist and then you’ll get yours”.
I really do avoid stuff like that and that’s not what I meant at all. I tried to emphasize others “seeing value” in a person and used an example of “nice to be around” which in my mind is not a rugged individualist trait (because I assume that rugged individualists are not nice to be around). I tried to convey that it is important for others to “evaluate” one, but that it starts with that one liking themselves. I mean, to me it makes sense that if you don’t like yourself then it’s going to be hard for others to like you. People who do think low of themselves tend to show that to the world (by being more withdrawn, speaking less, not “putting themselves out there”, etc.) so it’s not like others can read another person’s mind, but they can sense when someone is feeling down.
Maybe a little. I get defensive when I think people are interpreting what I’m saying in a bad way or in a way I don’t agree with. I’m sorry if I overreacted.
Then we arrive at the crux of the issue, because depending on the insecurity a person may have, it might be very hard that insecurity. Take for example someone who is overweight. An overweight person might be hesistant to go to the beach, or wear a t-shirt when they are at the beach. Is this not a signal that they are insecure about their weight and don’t feel comfortable in their skin? They haven’t said they are insecure, but their actions and behaviour point to it.
I do sometimes have trouble expressing what I think because I try to be as concise as possible, otherwise I could write paragraphs and go on and on about it. I try to avoid that.
But that isn’t my claim, perhaps I misspoke (miswrote?) A better way to say it would be that unless you recognise value in yourself, it will be harder for others to recognise it in you. Recognise is a better word because it implies that value is there, it just needs to be seen. If you have some things about you that you like, and you identify them, then you might be inclined to highlight those things. A silly example that comes to mind is that if you think you look good in a particular colour, then you might be inclined to wear that colour more often. Or going back to the overweight example, if there are certain clothes you can wear and look at yourself in the mirror and think “you know what? I look good in those clothes” you might wear them more often, and put yourself out there, rather than hide yourself because you think you look unattractive no matter what.
A personal example, I think I have a tendency to talk to much and about things that people may not care about. So instead of feeling outwardly insecure (which I am a lot of the time) I put effort into actively listening and then talk a lot about what the person is interested in. I guess I opened this can of worms when I used the word “value”, but to continue with it: I try not to see myself as an annoying person, but as someone who likes to talk about things, has broad general knowledge and I show this value by engaging with what the person is saying and being a good conversational partner.
But that’s my point, that there should be follow-through. Recognising value in one self -> presenting that value to others. I see now that value was perhaps the wrong word, but I homnestly can’t think of a better one.
You’re good, I just wanted to make sure it was clear I was not in it to attack you and was doing my best not to go that route. And I can relate, for what it’s worth. I couldn’t begin to count the number of times it has seemed or felt like I’m Sisyphus trying to communicate something; as in, it can feel like I’m trying very hard to go nowhere. Sometimes things just click and sometimes it feels like I’m communicating in another language, and anywhere in-between.
That said, in trying to read closely what you have said most recently, it sounds like we are mostly agreement on the spirit of it, but might disagree in the implementation somewhat. If I try to drill it down to how I feel most strongly about it, I’m thinking about this from a standpoint of individualist vs. collectivist, rugged individual success vs. communal interdependence - and what I primarily take issue with, which may never have been your meaning in the first place, is when advice appears to land on the individualist side of those things. I know that whether it’s myself or someone else, simply having the kind of views we have here does not make us immune to propaganda or make us suddenly clear of all individualist tendencies of thinking that have been instilled in many of us from birth. So some part of me is a bit wary on that being validated further rather than unlearned. And I find that in my understanding of things, dating and romance still appears to be an area heavy with individualist rhetoric and a sort of unspoken “become a better rugged individualist and then you’ll get yours”. I may have overreacted in caution to what you said because of similarities I thought I saw in it relative to other rhetoric I’ve seen.
I totally get that. The internet has been poisoned by the MGTOW and Jordan Peterson shit that any kind of mention of “working on yourself” may remind one of the “clean your room stuff”. And I am not coming from that angle at all.
I really do avoid stuff like that and that’s not what I meant at all. I tried to emphasize others “seeing value” in a person and used an example of “nice to be around” which in my mind is not a rugged individualist trait (because I assume that rugged individualists are not nice to be around). I tried to convey that it is important for others to “evaluate” one, but that it starts with that one liking themselves. I mean, to me it makes sense that if you don’t like yourself then it’s going to be hard for others to like you. People who do think low of themselves tend to show that to the world (by being more withdrawn, speaking less, not “putting themselves out there”, etc.) so it’s not like others can read another person’s mind, but they can sense when someone is feeling down.