Can a guy who hasn’t had much luck with women until his 30s find love by then or is it already too late for him?
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This is a beautiful and accurate way to put it.
Not if you say things like “luck with women”. No one is going to see value in you until you see value in yourself. It sounds like a bullshit platitude but it’s actually true.
No one is going to see value in you until you see value in yourself.
My parents did and still do. They are not ideal role models, but like many parents, they value me without me needing to value myself first. If I lived in a socialist state, I would expect community there to be much the same. We here are about valuing human life intrinsically, are we not?
Those are your parents, though. I was talking about OP’s use of language. “Having luck with women” implies one has to be lucky to find a woman to want them, when in fact women (like all people) want that in which they see value. If OP thinks they have to be lucky rather than someone who is actually desirable and people want, i.e. why aren’t women the ones who need luck to be with him, then that tells me that OP might be having self-esteem issues that won’t be fixed with a girlfriend or sex (talking from personal experience). They will only be solved by OP working on himself until he finds himself or thinks about himself as desirable.
So, there are a few things that come to mind for me on this.
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If we are talking about capitalist society where people are raised to view relationships as transactional, then sure, we have to be grounded in what we’re dealing with there, that expecting people to value others intrinsically when they may not is probably not going to get what we want in life.
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Luck does factor into it some. I don’t see how not. Romantic feelings can just sort of happen and people aren’t always into the ones who are going to be the best to have around. Cause it’s feelings. Plenty of romantic relationships are a thing in spite of having aspects to them that are unhealthy. So I think it’s safe to say some people are finding love just fine, in spite of what ails them, even if it’s sometimes a bit of a mess.
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I struggle to see the connection between viewing yourself as desirable and being desirable to others. As a mental health issue, I definitely want people to value themselves, don’t get me wrong, and I’d be right there with you saying it’s important for a healthy relationship. I have a post in this thread of my own that touches on that. But where my mind goes is to confidence and how people say confidence is attractive. Supposing that is generally true, what if you do value yourself, but you don’t actually project that outwardly? Maybe you have internalized certain ideas about humility and so you downplay yourself in presentation in order to feel more morally upright. Now compare this to a narcissist, who can be extremely insecure, yet still project confidence and greatly impress upon others what their value is. Unless the person experiencing this from the outside is able to get deeper info behind the scenes, will being more attracted in relation to how much a person values themself cause them to go for the person who values themself or the person who projects value of themself? I would think they’d go for the 2nd. This is not to say everyone who projects value of themself is secretly “bad” - far from it. It’s just an example to illustrate outward vs. inward. That working on yourself is important, getting the support you need is important, but I don’t think people should be expecting that it will translate to being more attractive to others.
If people are attracted to specific things, they have to be able to perceive those things to feel attraction towards them. This can go very poorly, granted, when people take this line of thought to a shallow and marketing-obsessed level and lose sight of authentic connection (I think of the movie Hitch for a fictional example of this). I just don’t want people thinking that others have mind-reading to be turned off toward them because they secretly have some insecurities and the only way others will ever love them is if they first resolve those insecurities. Even openly stated insecurities can at times be endearing, depending on how it is said, who is doing the listening. We are all human, after all.
If we are talking about capitalist society where people are raised to view relationships as transactional, then sure
Seeing value in someone doesn’t have to be transactional. “Value” can be something as simple as a feeling of “I like to be around this person”. A person who is nice to be around is valuable.
what if you do value yourself, but you don’t actually project that outwardly?
People’s mental state affects their body language, their demeanor, and humans are pretty good at picking up on those cues. You might not be able to put it into words, but you can feel a person.
The “outward” can be having the confidence to approach someone. If you view yourself as lesser-than and think you need luck or some sort of “trick” to get with someone, then you might either be hesitant to approach a person or if you do approach them you’re doing it with the mentality of “I am bothering this person, but I hope they’re nice enough to talk to me”, as opposed to approaching someone with the mentality of “we’re equals, I am in fact creating an opportunity for both of us to meet each other because I have a feeling we might be good together”.
Seeing value in someone doesn’t have to be transactional. “Value” can be something as simple as a feeling of “I like to be around this person”. A person who is nice to be around is valuable.
Right, but why does one person “like to be around another”. That part is important. There’s no such thing as a person who is universally nice to be around. “Nice to be around” can be many things to many people. For just one example, a hyperactive extrovert might be the life of the party to one person and an annoying and draining to another.
People’s mental state affects their body language, their demeanor, and humans are pretty good at picking up on those cues. You might not be able to put it into words, but you can feel a person.
The “outward” can be having the confidence to approach someone. If you view yourself as lesser-than and think you need luck or some sort of “trick” to get with someone, then you might either be hesitant to approach a person or if you do approach them you’re doing it with the mentality of “I am bothering this person, but I hope they’re nice enough to talk to me”, as opposed to approaching someone with the mentality of “we’re equals, I am in fact creating an opportunity for both of us to meet each other because I have a feeling we might be good together”.
Overall, this sounds to me like law of attraction magical thinking type stuff. Although it is true that a person’s mental state can be expressed outwardly, some people become very adept at hiding it. As an example, consider masking in people on the autism spectrum: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/masking
Some people go to great lengths to hide what’s going on inside (sometimes without even realizing they’re doing it) and sure, they’re not going to hide everything, but I see no truism here that internal will be picked up on externally. People can’t mind-read. They can make educated guesses based on past experience and infer from it. If they know a person really well, they can learn various tells. They can also make (sometimes drastically incorrect) judgments based on how a person seems to land within their worldview and experiences. People pick up on stuff, but what they pick up on is not necessarily reliable or consistent from person to person. The parable of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind here.
There’s no such thing as a person who is universally nice to be around. “Nice to be around” can be many things to many people.
Well yeah, seeing value in others is subjective. It’s what a person values about another person. If they feel like they like to be around that person, that is perceiving value in that person. I’m not talking in universals.
this sounds to me like law of attraction magical thinking type stuff.
It’s not though.
As an example, consider masking in people on the autism spectrum
I’m on the spectrum. And when I let my guard down I get judged. I got banned from the Linux community here on lemmygrad for “bigoted speech” (or whatever) because I looked at the Hyprland fiasco from a different angle. I don’t use Wayland or Hyprland, I have no dog in the race, I just wanted to see the issue from another perspective. I do that often, rather than picking a side right away I like to look at an issue from many different angles. But that’s what happens when people on the spectrum lower their guard and feel like they can speak their mind, they get judged. Like you are doing right now, you’re accusing me of promoting “magical thinking, law of attraction type stuff”. It’s really tiring to have to keep going “I said” and “what I actually said” because people don’t want to give the benefit of a doubt, but want to read something in the worst possible way so that they can then be outraged and just give their usual response.
Some people go to great lengths to hide what’s going on inside
Preaching to the choir.
I see no truism here that internal will be picked up on externally
Where did I say it was a truism?
People can’t mind-read.
Of course not. That’s why I said people’s attitudes can reflect in their body language, mannerisms and demeanor that people can pick up on. How can people sometimes feel when there’s something really wrong with a person or how people say that some people “look like pedophiles” and then those people turn out to be pedophiles. Nobody can read their minds to see that that person is attracted to children, but a lot of the times they can just sense that sort of vibe. I’m not saying it is 100% infallible or that it is on the mark every time, but sometimes it is. I’m not saying it is an exact science, or that it is true for every single situation, it just tends to happen.
People pick up on stuff, but what they pick up on is not necessarily reliable or consistent from person to person.
Of course not, and I never claimed it was an universal law. But generally people who are happy and content with themselves do give off a carefree vibe that people like. You know when people describe someone as “chill”, what does that mean? Is that person cold? Is that person going around trying really hard to project that they are “chill”? Of course not. Because guess what? When people try to pretend they are relaxed and carefree, they usually come off as opposite.
This all comes from my own observations. You mentioned masking, well a big part of that is trying to figure out what people are thinking, why, because you can’t mask yourself or hide things well unless you know what you should mask. Like for example certain fears or neuroses, people don’t want to hear that stuff, yet it actually helps me to vocalise something to then be free of it.
It’s really tiring to have to keep going “I said” and “what I actually said” because people don’t want to give the benefit of a doubt, but want to read something in the worst possible way so that they can then be outraged and just give their usual response.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you are taking this comment of mine personally, which was not intended as personal. If you believe I have used language that implies insult or outrage, please point it out to me exactly so I can reflect on it. Communists cannot afford to be afraid of criticizing an idea because a person might take it as criticism of themself or as too aggressive; in spite of this, I have tried, whether it shows or not, to approach this diplomatically and navigate through the weeds of the reasoning we are discussing, providing examples of what I’m saying along the way.
As far as I can tell, you are now saying that your position is not a universal law, that I was misinterpreting in responding to it as if you had said it was, but are nevertheless insisting it is generally true. I’m disagreeing that it is generally true also. I don’t see evidence that it is.
I tried before to find within myself, and express, the heart of what I’m saying:
I just don’t want people thinking that others have mind-reading to be turned off toward them because they secretly have some insecurities and the only way others will ever love them is if they first resolve those insecurities. Even openly stated insecurities can at times be endearing, depending on how it is said, who is doing the listening. We are all human, after all.
As far as I can tell, this part was not responded to. Misunderstanding can go both ways. The fact alone that we seem to be, to a point, continuously talking past each other, only furthers my point about the limits of accuracy in what we perceive from the outside.
If you have the patience for it with me after all of this, since you said you like considering different angles, let’s try considering this as analogous to building working class power. Suppose you further someone’s class consciousness, but this person is not the type to talk politics with others and they are very busy, so although they are now slightly more sympathetic to the cause should conflict arise, they do little with this. They haven’t been brought into organizing or discussion spaces, they haven’t been involved in any kind of political action, they just sort of have some increased class consciousness now. I would say that has some value, but without follow-through, with the constant influx of anti-communist propaganda many of us are wading through every day, they may slip into an area you didn’t want. Their internal state changed somewhat, but because the external state was not worked with in tandem, there is no reliability of meaningful change having been accomplished. In the weeds of the reasoning, this is part of what I’m trying to get at. The inward could translate to outward in the way that you hope or it could not. Without evaluating the factors involved for the individual, there is no way to predict which way it will go. And so, even as a generality, it is unreliable. For it to work as a generality, there needs to be enough predictable consistency across different people and backgrounds, and I’m not seeing the evidence to support that with the generality about valuing yourself making others value you more. And if it is not reliable, then what purpose does it serve as advice when there are other, more specific ways a person can look to, to fix problems they are having in dating? I would think there is more value, for example, in saying that a person who has trouble saying no needs to learn how to say no; which is implicitly a kind of valuing yourself, but is also more specific, more actionable, and has the assurance of being something others will see in their interactions with you.
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People are getting it on in nursing homes, I don’t think it can ever be too late.
Hooking up and casual sex are different from love.
Sure, but it can get your foot in the door.
Very true.
I’d kill for any of those things
Classic bigboop.
Yes, but I would be wary of placing too much individualist importance on it. For example, I used to spend some time around an online dating forum and it was common for people to have the same issues with the same apps (there are a bunch that are all owned by MatchGroup and so have much of the same freemium practices that revolve around extracting money from you rather than finding you love). And it was common to see the sentiment that it was easier to find a date on them even as recently as before the pandemic.
At the same time, it’s important when evaluating it as a system that you don’t blame the victim. Some people in those same spaces will say it isn’t their fault, but it is “women’s fault” (in one way or another). Or they will insist that women have some kind of privileged position, while ignoring the violence and objectification that women regularly grow up with and continue to deal with pretty much their whole lives.
So there is an important difference in systemic evaluation between understanding when some things are out of your control (ex: dating apps being rigged against you) vs. scapegoating (ex: blaming women).
There is also a certain amount of luck to consider in it, especially as it relates to what standards and expectations you have. The more specific it is what you want, the harder it will be to find. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing to want something specific, but if your pool of people you are willing to date is 1000 people, there’s much better chance of one of them liking you back than if your pool is 10 people. And then there is also just doing things that get you in front of people, meeting them, spending time with them, etc. Some of us tend to spend a lot of time indoors, some doing it more so after pandemic, work from home, all that kind of thing. You can find people through online, it’s not impossible, but the point here is just you can’t date someone you never meet or never spend time around.
These are things to consider before even thinking too hard about what you are as a person. If there are repeat themes in how you’ve struggled that involve what you are as a person, then that is certainly an area of importance to examine. But there is a lot you can look at before you even get to the point of the individualist “change yourself from within” stuff. I think it is important to genuinely love yourself and nurture that, but I also think it’s BS when people say you need to do that first like it’s some requirement. Nobody says to a baby, “You’ll get my love once you start loving yourself.” That’s just not how human beings function. We can’t do something if we have no idea what it looks and feels like in the first place. But that doesn’t mean you necessarily need romance to value yourself healthily, when that is an issue; friendships that are generous with support and nurturing can also help; the right kind of supportive therapist can help.
I’ve had far, far more meaningful relationships in my 30s than in my 20s. You just need to be a decent person worth dating and you’ll do fine. A lack of experience or lasting relationships doesn’t mean you’re incapable or broken or anything.
How did you meet your partners? (both in your 20s and 30s)
Through friends or work mostly. Online dating was always an awful experience for me.
There really isn’t a moment when your clock is up as long as you’re still alive.
Yes, i met my now husband when i was 36.
Were you married before him?
Nope. came close a few times but they weren’t the right one.
Yes, ypu can. How to go about it and actually improve your chances as much as you can is a different discussion.
How do you do the latter?
I think the big question you have to answer for yourself is why things haven’t worked out for you. Is it a pleasant experience to have a conversation with you? Do you often talk to people in general? Do you smell good or horrible? Do you generally take responsibility for your life as much as could be expected for someone in your situation? Are there any underlying mental health or attachment issues that need to be addressed? Do you give people a sense of safety, or do they get vibes of racism or misogyny from you, or vibes that you might abuse them? There is no deadline for addressing any of these besides the big deadline, being dead. But they are all better addressed sooner rather than later, to the extent you can. Besides that, you need to make yourself available to be dated.
Absolutely. It’s NEVER too late, while you’re drawing breath. We humans are social creatures throughout our lives. The 30s is when you move from “young adulthood” to just plain “adulthood”. You’ve still got plenty of years in your natural lifespan. My advice would be the following:
- Forget everything that rom-coms and mainstream “romantic” portrayals push. They are not realistic representationsv of healthy, sustainable relationships.
- Forget about preconceived notions of “the type of woman you’re looking for”. That’s not to say that you’d be wrong to have preferences. Just be sure that your preferences are conscious of the fact that a potential partner is their own person and not some imaginary woman-shaped cardboard cutout with no agency or existence beyond your presence.
- Forget about both “The One that got away” and “The One”. Both are toxic, unhealthy concepts. The former errodes the stability of any relationship that you may pursue. The later erodes your self-esteem and makes you more likely to “settle”. The reality is that there are multiple “The Ones” for any given person, at any given time. And as people (and you) grow, they may or may not remain a “The One” and that’s ok.
- Lots of people get together and marry or stay in a long relationship far too young. Noone knows themselves and what they want entirely in their teens and twenties. Being in relationships helps at building relationship skills but, actual compatibility of personalities, drives, and dreams is frequently not great with couples that get married that young.
- IMPORTANT Ensure that you are good with yourself. If you get into a relationship, it’s unfair to do so hoping that the other person will “fix” you. Do your best to be the best you that you can be. Human pairing criteria/rituals run a wide gamut. Embodying the best of who you want to be will make you someone’s “fetish”.
- ALSO EXTREMELY IMPORTANT Don’t be creepy with your preferred gender. They’re just other human beings - treat them as such (yes, they may have significantly different life experiences due to presenting gender). The big point here is that you don’t want to come off as predatory, which you will, if you are always looking at people that you meet as potential mates rather than the full human beings with their own wants, desires, and agency.
- Participate in social activities that include a mix of people, including those of your preferred gender. DO NOT do this just to find a date. That will make you come across as phoney. Participate in activities that you have genuine interest in or are curious about. The main goal here, overall, is to enjoy yourself with other people. In the relationship side of things, this helps to build your social skills and social circles. Being open to romantic entanglement is good but ensure that you’re not ruining someone else’s hobby fun.
- Finding a partner is largely a numbers game. You need to meet enough people to find individuals that share high compatibility with you. Be open to relationships not working out. You will have some catch-up in your relationships skills which may cause some rockiness. As long as you keep moving forward and improving yourself, you’re going to be ok.
- Being in your 30s means that you’re more likely to have your shit together, or at least be more comfortable with yourself and know what you want in life. Lots of people find that alone to be attractive.
I wish you lots of love and joy. My apologies for the lengthy response but I like to try to share what I’ve learned from my own experiences in the hope that it helps others get past some of the things that caused me to be lonely for longer than I needed to be.
Yeah you still got time
Easier for men, harder for women. There appears to be a strange view among some zoomers that life ends at 30.
Why easier for men and harder for women?
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Lots of people getting divorced in their 30s and getting back into dating.
