- cross-posted to:
- lemmy_support
- cross-posted to:
- lemmy_support
As far as I see that instance is a far-right cess pool. Everything I’ve got from that instance were low-quality transphobic “news articles”.
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And then it’s usually the most low-IQ people you’ve ever seen. So even if you are a person with controversial opinions and would like to discuss them, you can’t even do that properly.
E.g. imagine that you like cryptocoins, but see some kind of problem with them that you would like to argue about… Everything you get is an angry Mob with nonsense responses.
E.g. imagine that you like cryptocoins, but see some kind of problem with them that you would like to argue about… Everything you get is an angry Mob with nonsense responses.
Any reason why you can’t discuss crypto with people that aren’t fascist symps?
Because everyone who isn’t is smart enough to realise they’re all scams.
Dang it’s like Voat over there
Vote: Yes
Nazis aren’t welcome here, best they learn that now rather than through a long process of being told by everyone else here to fuck off.
Telling Nazis to fuck off rarely leads to them actually fucking off, because they’re Nazis.
If enough of the community makes it sufficiently clear that we’re not going to let them peddle their Nazi bullshit unopposed, including by taking whatever moderator actions are possible to get rid of them, most of the Nazis will go somewhere else and we’ll only have to deal with the typical number of Nazis for an internet platform rather than become inundated with them. Making them unwelcome by any means necessary is the name of the game.
then we will scrape them off our shoe as we always do with dog shit
If enough of the community makes it sufficiently clear that we’re not going to let them peddle their Nazi bullshit unopposed, including by taking whatever moderator actions are possible to get rid of them, most of the Nazis will go somewhere else and we’ll only have to deal with the typical number of Nazis for an internet platform rather than become inundated with them. Making them unwelcome by any means necessary is the name of the game.
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T-they are…
deleted by creator
What’s your definition of a Nazi? A member of a national socialist party? I want to understand what is being banned before it’s banned.
My criteria for what makes “a Nazi” are something like this.
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A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept, that reproducing outside one’s race is inherently wrong, and that some races are inherently superior to others; most often the superior groups are “white”, while the “inferior” groups include Africans, Jews and travelling people
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Reverence for cultural “tradition”, real or imagined, with any departure from these traditions classified as “degenerate” and dangerous to society. For example, a belief that avant-garde art is immoral and without value because it doesn’t root itself in what are popularly perceived to be the artistic traditions of “the west”, a neat line from Greek marble statues to Wagner.
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Hatred of diversity, seeing it as a plague that rots a society. For example, the belief that women are unfit to hold a social position outside of motherhood, that non-heterosexual sexualities are “degenerate”, that allowing people from another race to exist in your race’s society inevitably leads to that society’s destruction, that gender as a concept is a “mental illness” because only two biological sexes exist and each biological sex has a set-in-stone role demanding a certain presentation and certain values, that societies which follow one religion must not allow followers of another religion to exist within it.
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Heavy use of absolutism. Everything is either wholly good or wholly bad. Nothing can be a mix of good and bad, or neutral. And everything is a matter of utmost urgency. Anything that is “bad” is an existential threat to all that is “good” and must be immediately and utterly annihilated.
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An authoritarian outlook. Anything opposed by a Nazi must be forbidden by the full force of the law. There is no space for differences of opinion, or a nuanced debate, or reviewing the facts. If they oppose something, whether it’s big or small - the use of marijuana, reformative justice programs, abortion, media with female protagonists - it must be banned under pain of death.
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Violence. To a Nazi, the use of violence isn’t an escalation, but the norm. They have no qualms about beating people to death simply for espousing an opposing view, or even just for existing if some aspect of their existence offends their beliefs. Likewise, their rhetoric often alludes to the indiscriminate or nonchalant, even gleeful use of deadly force - “physical removal”, “showers”, etc.
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Shameless hypocrisy. The people who say “facts not feelings” as a rebuttal are often the same people whose beliefs are motivated almost entirely by feelings, and will happily mock others for trying to use evidence in their arguments instead of simply saying “it’s common sense”. They will shame someone for being rude and aggressive while also calling them the N word and telling them that on “the day of the rope”, they’ll be among the dead.
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Veneration of strong leaders and mocking of “weakness”. Consensus-builders are seen as spineless “cucks”, while people who enforce their every arbitrary whim with total force are held up as “based” exemplars of good leadership and models to be emulated. People who are comfortably being themselves in ways that aren’t conventionally masculine are addressed with slurs and told to kill themselves while ignorant, bullying asshats are applauded for “rustling jimmies”.
You can meet all of these criteria without being a member of a National-Socialist party, or even identifying as a Nazi, but if you do meet most or all of them, your ideology can be pretty confidently described as Nazi-like.
By the way, cheers to you for actually answering the question. I’ve seen “BAN NAZIS” before, but I haven’t really understood what the requestors are looking to ban, and when questioned they seem to disappear quickly.
This seems pretty well thought out.
I’m a little confused by: “A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept”. If I was born in Spain and my whole family has lived there for centuries, am I not Spanish / a Spaniard?
I’d agree that saying things like “all Spaniards are terrible at math” is racist, but I don’t see how one’s race is mutable in this fashion.
I’m a little confused by: “A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept”. If I was born in Spain and my whole family has lived there for centuries, am I not Spanish / a Spaniard?
Spanish would be a good description of your ethnic background in that situation, but there are quite a number of ethnic identities within Spain as well - the Basque, Galicians and Catalans, just to name a few. “Spanish” isn’t a racial monolith. There would be plenty of people whose ethnic background looks quite different to yours but who are no less Spanish.
What I mean in that statement is that Nazis believe that “race” - as in “Germanic”, “Hispanic”, “Black” (they tend to lump all sub-Saharan Africans together), “Middle Eastern” - is a useful way of classifying people, and that substantial differences in things like intelligence and physiology between humans are primarily the result of these categorisations.
Spanish would be a good description of your ethnic background in that situation, but there are quite a number of ethnic identities within Spain as well - the Basque, Galicians and Catalans, just to name a few. “Spanish” isn’t a racial monolith. There would be plenty of people whose ethnic background looks quite different to yours but who are no less Spanish.
But none of that is mutable, is it?
Your DNA isn’t going to change, but those ethnic groups are transient things rather than an inherent feature of reality. An ethnic group is ultimately a relative thing. Some “African-American” people might be genetically closer to the African people from whom their ancestors came than the other ethnic groups living in America, but they’re not simply “African” - they are a separate diaspora. Those ethnic groups change their makeups over time.
It’s not like, say, elements. 1,000 years from now, the average genetic makeup of any given ethnic group will be observably different from how it is today, but a Hydrogen atom will still be defined in exactly the same way as now. Nazis believe that races are a concrete, reified structure that doesn’t shift over time - it is a “pure” and “natural” state that becomes degraded and diluted by what they term miscegenation, rather than a fuzzy construct that changes over time.
Let’s say you were born in Spain and your whole family has lived there for centuries, but your family are black - say, some of your ancestors arrived from North Africa long ago. I would still call you Spanish, but a Nazi would call you African (or more likely some kind of slur). They care about the colour of your skin more than your actual background. Likewise, no matter how many generations your family has lived in a country or how well they pass, Nazis assert that if any of your ancestors was a Jew, you are also a Jew, and that as a Jew, you are inherently inferior to non-Jews and consequently a racial contaminant.
I wonder how anyone stereotyping individuals based on far-distant ancestors square up these beliefs with hominid evolution. I guess the answer is “they don’t”.
Just adding to this, following this same supposedly biological argument that advocates for a natural and morally correct path for the furthering of genetic lineages, Nazis persecuted homosexuality, bisexuality and trans people as a national policy, shutting down sexology research institutes, literally burning years of scientific advancements, and revoking official acknowledgements the Weimar Republic granted transgender people. It’s often forgotten, but the inherent homophobia, biphobia and transphobia of neonazis and adjacent movements is not a recent development at all: https://www.advocate.com/news/holocaust-lgbtq-victims-german-parliament
They may be talking about ethnicity vs race? Google says in basic terms, race describes physical traits, and ethnicity refers to cultural identification. Race may also be identified as something you inherit, whereas ethnicity is something you learn.
So ethnicity is certainly mutable
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My criteria for what makes “a Nazi” are something like this.
-
A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept, that reproducing outside one’s race is inherently wrong, and that some races are inherently superior to others; most often the superior groups are “white”, while the “inferior” groups include Africans, Jews and travelling people
-
Reverence for cultural “tradition”, real or imagined, with any departure from these traditions classified as “degenerate” and dangerous to society. For example, a belief that avant-garde art is immoral and without value because it doesn’t root itself in what are popularly perceived to be the artistic traditions of “the west”, a neat line from Greek marble statues to Wagner.
-
Hatred of diversity, seeing it as a plague that rots a society. For example, the belief that women are unfit to hold a social position outside of motherhood, that non-heterosexual sexualities are “degenerate”, that allowing people from another race to exist in your race’s society inevitably leads to that society’s destruction, that gender as a concept is a “mental illness” because only two biological sexes exist and each biological sex has a set-in-stone role demanding a certain presentation and certain values, that societies which follow one religion must not allow followers of another religion to exist within it.
-
Heavy use of absolutism. Everything is either wholly good or wholly bad. Nothing can be a mix of good and bad, or neutral. And everything is a matter of utmost urgency. Anything that is “bad” is an existential threat to all that is “good” and must be immediately and utterly annihilated.
-
An authoritarian outlook. Anything opposed by a Nazi must be forbidden by the full force of the law. There is no space for differences of opinion, or a nuanced debate, or reviewing the facts. If they oppose something, whether it’s big or small - the use of marijuana, reformative justice programs, abortion, media with female protagonists - it must be banned under pain of death.
-
Violence. To a Nazi, the use of violence isn’t an escalation, but the norm. They have no qualms about beating people to death simply for espousing an opposing view, or even just for existing if some aspect of their existence offends their beliefs. Likewise, their rhetoric often alludes to the indiscriminate or nonchalant, even gleeful use of deadly force - “physical removal”, “showers”, etc.
-
Shameless hypocrisy. The people who say “facts not feelings” as a rebuttal are often the same people whose beliefs are motivated almost entirely by feelings, and will happily mock others for trying to use evidence in their arguments instead of simply saying “it’s common sense”. They will shame someone for being rude and aggressive while also calling them the N word and telling them that on “the day of the rope”, they’ll be among the dead.
-
Veneration of strong leaders and mocking of “weakness”. Consensus-builders are seen as spineless “cucks”, while people who enforce their every arbitrary whim with total force are held up as “based” exemplars of good leadership and models to be emulated. People who are comfortably being themselves in ways that aren’t conventionally masculine are addressed with slurs and told to kill themselves while ignorant, bullying asshats are applauded for “rustling jimmies”.
You can all of these criteria without being a member of a National-Socialist party, or even identifying as a Nazi, but if you do meet most or all of them, your ideology can be pretty confidently described as Nazi-like.
Yeah well it’s really much easier to call someone a Nazi as an umbrella term for such indivuals rather than some scientific term no one really understands. It’s kinda actually taking from the playbook they use themselves: associate something with a negative connotation.
But I thought a nazi was anyone I disagreed with.
Man, being thoughtful and specific seems like a lot of work.
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Nazis
Let me guess. Trump and people who like him are Nazis to you?
I find it interesting that in a thread entirely about Nazis, and nothing but Nazis, you heard Trump.
Make of that what you will
Because the instance being discussed is basically TheDonald and related ideologies. Because you all don’t seem to understand what reality is.
Not necessarily, but he and people who like him are dumbasses that (at the very least) enable Nazis. To be fair, it doesn’t matter what you call them. Instead of Nazis you could say Troglodytes and everyone would know who you talk about, them included.
No. Trump isn’t really an ideologue. He’s just a grifter.
But trump publicly during a debate told a Christian nationalist terrorist organization convicted of insurrection to “stand by and stand back” as if he commands them, and as if they work on his behalf.
I have zero love for Trump or his dick riders. I’m just annoyed when every time somebody posts something about “Nazis” it ends up being about idiot Trumpers so we just dilute the word to mean somebody we think is mean or has the wrong opinions.
I think it’s obvious when people say “nazis” they’re being lazy and saying fascist, bigoted, ultra nationalist, transphobic, Christian zealot-ed, islamophobic, chauvinistic, etc.
On the internet with short posts people don’t feel like typing that all out. So no, they’re not all literal nazis. But they’re very nazi adjacent. And the online communities are even more open about it than Trump is.
If you’d prefer I can go point by point I how trump and his platform are all those things. Just let me know. It would be pretty easy, but I think it’s obvious when you look at each aspect individually.
Edit:
Fascist: marching on the capitol to prevent the certification of a democratic vote. Literal insurrectionist. Convicted of sedition. Just like Mussolini Marcia su Roma.
Ultra nationalist: I mean I don’t feel like I need to do this one. It’s his entire platform. They’re not afraid to admit this.
Bigoted: Mexicans are rapists. Massive blue lives matter movement right after a very public murder by the police. The Central Park 5. Trump losing civil cases where he avoided renting to selling homes to black people. Promoting the idea, baselessly, that Obama, the first black president, is disqualified because he’s not American enough. That’s he’s a Muslim African born foreigner.
Transphobic: pretty much every red state has passed anti trans laws. They’re calling trans people pedophiles on Fox News. DeSantis entire platform (which Trumpers overwhelmingly support) is based on anti trans policy.
Christian zealotry: passing laws based on the Bible. Anti abortion laws passed in states literally citing the Bible. gay marriage opposition based on the Bible. Open call for declaring the US a Christian nation, and teaching Christianity in schools. Having prayer in schools.
Islamophobia: banning Muslims from entering the country. Using terrorism as an excuse, when every single politically motivated murder in the US last year was committed by right wing perpetrators. Birthirism.
Sexism/Chauvinism: that’s the proud boys stated ethos. Trump is extremely open about this in how he speaks. How he constantly calls non white states shitholes, how he always criticizes women for their looks etc. Trump being found liable of sexual assault. Trump constantly attacking the victims. Openly bragging on tape about sexual assault.
The thing is, every thing I can say about trump personally on this, the online communities are 10x more open about it.
Trump has the politics that gets him the most personal benefit. I think everything he does follows from that, and being an actual boomer.
That doesn’t disqualify him and his base from being called nazi like. People aren’t calling him a nazi like because of what happened in WWII. They’re calling him nazi like for how he’s similar to how Hitler behaved when he was coming to power. The rise of Hitler and Mussolini has a lot of similarities to how trump behaves now. But his online fringer base, like the one we are discussing, is even more similar.
Only just got a notification from this, but anyway, I gave my definition for what I consider “a Nazi” here. Make of it what you will.
After a while of thinking and reviewing, I have come to the conclusion to defederate as requested. If they correct course, I’ll happily re-review them.
Thank you
Bigotry should be banned, and removed from this instance. That means not allowing bigotry on our instance. That means defederating from less clever wannabe 4chans, and less moderated The_D replacements.
They can enjoy their shithole federation.
Honestly 4chan is much better than some of these instances.
Yes, defederate these chuds. Keep them isolated! Don’t let them make this space into a Nazi bar.
good gawd I just checked out their front page, (puke noise) Hunter Derangement syndrome is real for those chuds
“Hunter’s laptop! Hunter’s laptop!”
Normal people: “Who? Oh that guy. Who cares?”
“Buttery malez? Ben Gazi?”
Yet they dont care at all whats on Matt Gatez laptop, or Jareds… what massive tools they are for falling for this utter bs.
I am trying to examen the instance, it would have been helpful to have some pointers to speed up the process although it somehow sounds like a familiar domain. It sounds like such content at least was against their rules. but that of course does not have to mean much.
Looking at the comments from their team is no good impression to say the least hmm
Update: found some more potential evidence that they are not welcoming nazis, but i think there are quite a few misinformation and “the usual” shitpost things on there that are not very … enjoyable (and of course as the op implies, transphobic trash and such as to expect from a shitpost instance).
There is the Lemmy.world Admin Response to Defederation from Exploding Heads with some pointers.
thanks
casually scrolling through their local top posts tells me they pass the duck test on being toxic pieces of shit, so I say let them fester in it by themselves
I will be ok with whatever you choose, whether that is staying federated, starting a conversation with their admins and withholding judgement until after that, defederating, or something else.
Personally, I’m not a fan of those things you have found (transphobia, misinfo, etc.), but I understand that people like that exist. I at least can block them and the communities that spout that trash.
It’s your instance, your hardware, and I trust your judgement.
It would be unfair for me to take place in the vote (Hi from Kbin.social).
Here’s the current list of the instances (currently 92) that have defederated(block) EH.hahaha I suspected as much, when will these dbags learn??
Hm, thanks for the site.
Thanks to federation this post is visible on a wide variety of instances. Which specific instance are you petitioning to defederate from exploding heads? You’re from discuss.tchncs.de so I assume that one?
The community they posted this in should be hint enough…
It’s a hint, sure. I’m suggesting they should have been explicit rather than relying on hints. People can miss hints.
I called it a hint, but it’s rather obvious, in-your-face information. When you open a post it shows you the Community in at least 3 different spots. It’s nobody else’s fault that that’s not enough for you.
You’re making the same not-necessarily-true assumption that OP is making.
In Kbin, which I am using to view this instead of Lemmy, it shows it in two places that are both well disconnected from the content of the post itself. There are a bunch of different 3rd party apps being developed for both Kbin and Lemmy right now with various UIs, I haven’t viewed this in any of them yet. I also haven’t viewed it in Mastodon, which I’m told can be used to view Lemmy and Kbin threads. There are innumerable different possible UIs out there in the Fediverse.
And even then, it’s still possible in this case for OP to have been discussing petitioning everyone to defederate from exploding-heads. That’s a reasonable alternate interpretation and I can’t read OP’s mind, only what they wrote.
What I’m suggesting is that we should keep in mind that the only thing that people are guaranteed to see about a post is the actual post, there’s no way of knowing what the surrounding context is going to be. The place you’re posting it is not the only place it will be seen.
Not OP’s fault either if the part of the Fediverse you’re in doesn’t even display the community.
There are many apps and interfaces by now. I only see the community name linked once in liftoff. It was still immediately obvious to me though.
If they are calling for a defederation they surely wouldn’t mind if their call carried to other instances to follow suit, not just their own
Probably any instance with common decency/desire to be good people.
The post is to the !tchncs@discuss.tchncs.de community, which is for discussing discuss.tchncs.de
It appeared on kbin.social’s “all” feed.
Perhaps it would be a good feature to be able to flag a community as “local only” to prevent it from federating at all, for this kind of thing.
I think it’s good to see what other instances are discussing about even if thye inky affect their own instance. It shows which instance this is posted on so it’s clear it’s not applicable to say lemmy.world but I want to see if other instances have had to take a stand against certain instances so I can avoid them until degenerated by say, my instance or if I need to move instances to enjoy that defederation.
Yes, defederate
Lmao, their rules:
- Be respectful. Everyone should feel welcome here.
- No threats or personal insults
- No discrimination
and yet almost every single comment I read is calling everyone pussies, toxic, and racist words.
Whats the point in having those rules when literally NO ONE is following or enforcing them? Damn.
Looks like this is really a right wing/fake/hate news instance. No love is lost defederating them.
So: Yes, please!
Why vote? Isn’t that the decision for the instance admins to make? (And also their job?)
Just ping them and also flag offending posts.
So the admins can make a better decision by knowing what their community thinks.
Just directly write them a message. I don’t think it needs a vote by the majority of the community to exclude some right wing crypto bros who like transphobia etc
Also if you focus your energy here instead of notifying an admin, they might not read it and you kinda did the opposite of what you intended. Focus your energy here only if the admins and moderation don’t do their job properly.
aa
That’s how admins of reddit shut down third party apps without asking users
This post by one of their two admins explains what kind of instance they are.
Here is the tldr:
- “we allow anyone to say and post pretty much anything”
- “Here we don’t censor or ban people or suspend accounts over frivolous matters”
- “racism, bigotry, sexism is allowed”
HTH people decide if they want to stay federated.
I’m all for having arguments with reasonable people I disagree with, but let’s be real here. That’s not what happens with far right trolls. Their goal is to be incoherent and exhausting to deal with. They don’t care about exchanging ideas. They want to make you waste your time and feel hopeless. Don’t give them the chance. Just defederate.
