I run my own instance so that i can take a little control over the drivel that scrolls past my eyes. Far right ideologies don’t deserve a platform or an audience.
Yeah, free speech simply means that you won’t get arrested for being an asshole. It doesn’t mean you’re entitled to be bigoted on a service someone else is hosting. This could be a single person hosting a pet as a hobby, or a corporation at a large scale. It doesn’t matter as long as it’s a third-party that you don’t own.
If people want to be jerks on purpose without others getting involved, they can find their own place to share ideas or host a service themselves. And if they don’t like people challenging their ideas, they can block them too, because they have that right on their own stuff.
Some people believe that hate and discrimination is the new normal and should be condoned by everyone. If it’s a religion thing, perhaps they should reconsider what aspects of “blind” is important in blind faith? Regardless, it’s incredible how people find these unfounded hills to die on.
Besides, their hate is directed towards what’s fashionable at the time. “Owning slaves” and “owning women” was once something people fought for. Later, when human rights started getting voted into law, their disagreement started to be expressed through bigotry.
But now that society doesn’t have much room to be racist or sexist, they are migrating to other groups they don’t like. Did they generally decide that they were wrong about their previously-targeted groups? And they’re positive that the new groups are the right groups to hate? Or perhaps some people just have a chip on their shoulder and want to hate using whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to validate themselves?
Regardless, social media is just a way for people to talk to each other, hosted by a person or a group. In terms of what’s allowed to be said, technology is irrelevant. If someone invites you to dinner for the first time, and you’re blatantly racist, you’ll probably get kicked out. Social media, hosted by others, presents exactly the same set of circumstances, no matter if your voice goes through a webserver and a database first or not.
It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous
Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying ‘Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice’ removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying ‘everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!’ is limiting the voice of minorities.
You misunderstand me. Not everyone deserves to be given attention or a platform. The government just shouldn’t have the power to mete out punishment to individuals or institutions for their speech. Governments need to be as consistent as possible in keeping out of the business of censoring speech.
Sure. In authoritarian states, it’s common to outlaw “lies” about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing “lies” about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia’s “everything is fine” narrative. There’s also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.
I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political opinions. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.
None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.
We actually had a whole war about this, it was pretty universally decided there’s one way of thinking that is not compatible with humanity. It’s like the only forbidden ideology.
We don’t have to debate it.
“Some human lives don’t have value” being essentially universally rejected does make it seem edgy and cool to monsters and people people who just need to find out those ideas exclude them from society. However, the way these people are handled is by telling them these ideas are bad and won’t be tolerated. One group doubles down, the other decides to learn why and moves on with their lives.
That’s the whole discussion, there isn’t debate.
What exchange of ideas do you want with Nazis?
“Do all humans have value?”
“Yes, eugenics, apartheid, genocide, and Holocaust are evil and can’t be tolerated”
“What about the well understood steps, lies and propaganda used to make those ideas seem acceptable.”
“We also recognize those and won’t debate them.”
“What about free speech?”
“The government will not stop you from exposing yourself as a Nazi, no one else has to tolerated it.”
We actually had a whole war about this, it was pretty universally decided there’s one way of thinking that is not compatible with humanity. It’s like the only forbidden ideology.
My problem is that “forbidden ideology” suffers from mission creep. First you’re going after Nazis, then it’s others ideologies. Communists or capitalists. Religions (think Islam in the US post-9/11). “Hate” that is just uncomfortable to a majority group. Simply outlawing Nazis is the easy way out. Also, defining “Nazis” or “fascists” has problems of who gets to decide. Some people are willing to apply that label willy nilly. Hell, I’ve been labeled as fascist on this server, even though any actual fascist would struggle to find common cause with me.
I’m 100% for making it difficult for Nazis, white nationalists, etc. to spread their hatred. But the moment you start clapping handcuffs on them for their (shitty) words, you’re setting a precedent that is in practice misused.
Yes, yes we should all be Elon Musk style “free speech” absolutists, and we shouldn’t be intolerant of intolerance, because that’s the real intolerance.
You used alot of words to literally support Nazis.
I’m sorry I don’t know what to tell you.
I said we have chosen one, just one forbidden ideology, because it literally calls for death camps, and your response is, “if we don’t support the death camp ideology, someone might not support the antideath camp ideology”.
I don’t know how to respond to that, but only because you had to misinterpret what I said, and the amount of mental gymnastics what you said took makes the flaws self evident in what you said.
Did you read the last sentence of my comment? Or any of my other comments? I’m okay with platforms censoring whatever speech they want. I just think citizens should be protected from government censorship.
Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.
Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice
Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.
Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
It’s not controversial at all. The only people making “controversy” out of it are the ones who are mad they can’t spew hate
The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…
The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.
Tf is to sealion?? And I’d like to see the nazis you seem to be unable to not mention in a comment. What I’ve seen is that instances are defederating from exploding-heads. I’ve gone there, seen some edgier memes, some christianity oriented memes, some better memes(those three not being the same memes obv, the Biden ones are pretty unfunny). I’ve seen some honestly sensible policies - instead of banning people for using le bad words, they encourage people who are sensitive to such stuff to block and move on. You seem to call people fucking Nazis for using language that offends you, right?
Would you stop putting labels on people and provide the actual fucking examples that cause you to call people Nazis? Or have you simply taken someone’s word for it? You’re a nazi too btw, why? Because I said so, duh.
you like it when “other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum” is getting challenged? because that’s the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one
The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn’t deserve a place at the table. There’s a difference between “let’s decide whose economic policy is more useful now” and “hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn’t deserve to live at all.”
Blocking instances actually makes the lives of instance admins a lot easier. It not only reduces a whole chunk of problematic content for you to moderate, but it also encourages Nazis to go to the servers you block instead of yours. Nazis can’t subscribe to the subs they want to on your server, and they get banned if they say Nazi shit, so they just leave and go to a Nazi server instead. It’s like fly paper for Nazis lol.
As a Mastodon admin with a few thousand users, I rarely see Nazi content that I have to moderate. And that’s because when I started I spent an enormous amount of time sifting through every server we federated with and blocking all of the Nazis and all the pedos and all the TERFs. And because I did that at the start, I only get maybe 10 reports a week, none of them are content that would traumatize me (almost always spam), and I also helped the servers that now use my list to do the same.
Blocking instances not only makes it easier for me to do my job, it encourages other admins to not tolerate these kinds of behaviors as well. Because if they don’t moderate well, that attracts Nazis, and then we have to limit or ban them because we’re volunteers. So everyone just ends up blocking the shittiest servers and moderates their user base well. It’s a win/win for everyone.
Nazis are not entitled to access to minorities on my server. TERFs are not entitled to access to trans users on my server. Assholes are not entitled to have access to an audience on my server. There are tons of white supremacists or TERFs or other assholes hosting plenty of other servers where they can go and do that. But I don’t want that on servers I host and my users don’t want that on servers I host. If you truly believe free speech is such a big fucking deal, then you are welcome to leave and join one of those rotting servers as well. See how fun that is for you and how long it takes for you to come crawling back.
Ah yes, block entire instances en masse without the hassle of actually making the decision yourself, that would be nice
I run my own instance so that i can take a little control over the drivel that scrolls past my eyes. Far right ideologies don’t deserve a platform or an audience.
Yeah, free speech simply means that you won’t get arrested for being an asshole. It doesn’t mean you’re entitled to be bigoted on a service someone else is hosting. This could be a single person hosting a pet as a hobby, or a corporation at a large scale. It doesn’t matter as long as it’s a third-party that you don’t own.
If people want to be jerks on purpose without others getting involved, they can find their own place to share ideas or host a service themselves. And if they don’t like people challenging their ideas, they can block them too, because they have that right on their own stuff.
Some people believe that hate and discrimination is the new normal and should be condoned by everyone. If it’s a religion thing, perhaps they should reconsider what aspects of “blind” is important in blind faith? Regardless, it’s incredible how people find these unfounded hills to die on.
Besides, their hate is directed towards what’s fashionable at the time. “Owning slaves” and “owning women” was once something people fought for. Later, when human rights started getting voted into law, their disagreement started to be expressed through bigotry.
But now that society doesn’t have much room to be racist or sexist, they are migrating to other groups they don’t like. Did they generally decide that they were wrong about their previously-targeted groups? And they’re positive that the new groups are the right groups to hate? Or perhaps some people just have a chip on their shoulder and want to hate using whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to validate themselves?
Regardless, social media is just a way for people to talk to each other, hosted by a person or a group. In terms of what’s allowed to be said, technology is irrelevant. If someone invites you to dinner for the first time, and you’re blatantly racist, you’ll probably get kicked out. Social media, hosted by others, presents exactly the same set of circumstances, no matter if your voice goes through a webserver and a database first or not.
How do yoy feel about far left ideologies?
Evergreen meme:
Considering it’s their own instance, it doesn’t matter.
Love ‘em!
Pretty good, those are the best.
Imagine thinking far left and far right are equivalent.
Right wing extremists burn people alive, while left wing extremists burn cars.
Obviously the latter is far worse as it could be my car but I don’t own any humans.
Damn libruls took away our slaves!
pretty based ngl
Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice
Deserving a voice is in no way the same as deserving an audience.
I agree with this, but some beliefs are well… utterly stupid and not worth reconsidering. It’s a waste of time really.
It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous, particularly when “worthless” involves prison sentences.
Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying ‘Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice’ removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying ‘everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!’ is limiting the voice of minorities.
You misunderstand me. Not everyone deserves to be given attention or a platform. The government just shouldn’t have the power to mete out punishment to individuals or institutions for their speech. Governments need to be as consistent as possible in keeping out of the business of censoring speech.
Could you clarify?
Sure. In authoritarian states, it’s common to outlaw “lies” about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing “lies” about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia’s “everything is fine” narrative. There’s also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.
I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political opinions. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.
Which Lemmy instance was it that suspended Habeas Corpus?
None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.
We actually had a whole war about this, it was pretty universally decided there’s one way of thinking that is not compatible with humanity. It’s like the only forbidden ideology.
We don’t have to debate it.
“Some human lives don’t have value” being essentially universally rejected does make it seem edgy and cool to monsters and people people who just need to find out those ideas exclude them from society. However, the way these people are handled is by telling them these ideas are bad and won’t be tolerated. One group doubles down, the other decides to learn why and moves on with their lives.
That’s the whole discussion, there isn’t debate.
What exchange of ideas do you want with Nazis?
“Do all humans have value?”
“Yes, eugenics, apartheid, genocide, and Holocaust are evil and can’t be tolerated”
“What about the well understood steps, lies and propaganda used to make those ideas seem acceptable.”
“We also recognize those and won’t debate them.”
“What about free speech?”
“The government will not stop you from exposing yourself as a Nazi, no one else has to tolerated it.”
“But both sides”
“GTFO”
My problem is that “forbidden ideology” suffers from mission creep. First you’re going after Nazis, then it’s others ideologies. Communists or capitalists. Religions (think Islam in the US post-9/11). “Hate” that is just uncomfortable to a majority group. Simply outlawing Nazis is the easy way out. Also, defining “Nazis” or “fascists” has problems of who gets to decide. Some people are willing to apply that label willy nilly. Hell, I’ve been labeled as fascist on this server, even though any actual fascist would struggle to find common cause with me.
I’m 100% for making it difficult for Nazis, white nationalists, etc. to spread their hatred. But the moment you start clapping handcuffs on them for their (shitty) words, you’re setting a precedent that is in practice misused.
Yes, yes we should all be Elon Musk style “free speech” absolutists, and we shouldn’t be intolerant of intolerance, because that’s the real intolerance.
You used alot of words to literally support Nazis.
I’m sorry I don’t know what to tell you.
I said we have chosen one, just one forbidden ideology, because it literally calls for death camps, and your response is, “if we don’t support the death camp ideology, someone might not support the antideath camp ideology”.
I don’t know how to respond to that, but only because you had to misinterpret what I said, and the amount of mental gymnastics what you said took makes the flaws self evident in what you said.
Did you read the last sentence of my comment? Or any of my other comments? I’m okay with platforms censoring whatever speech they want. I just think citizens should be protected from government censorship.
Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.
Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.
Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
It’s not controversial at all. The only people making “controversy” out of it are the ones who are mad they can’t spew hate
Removed by mod
Sure, but did they actually say they want to murder minorities?? I’m yet to see that
It’s actually a limp ice cold take that’s been debated to death
The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…
The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.
You in fact can yell fire in a theater without being arrested. It depends on the context (and weather or not there where injuries)
If the play calls for it and an actor says it. Or more simply if the theater is on fire.
With speech laws it matters more what the context is to the intended audience than what is specifically said.
Did I not mention being responsible for injuries? Your absolutely right, but you’re not correct…
Go test your theory out, I’ll be waiting for a reply.
I will next time I’m in a theater that is on fire.
This is actually a dumb response.
You knew the content and context, and answered a different question to look smart.
It made you look dumber.
@kityr @borlax on the fediverse we ban the “nazis deserve a voice” types
So you ban the “everyone deserves a voice” types? Because that’s what I said.
@kityr don’t try and sealion your way around making excuses for nazis
Tf is to sealion?? And I’d like to see the nazis you seem to be unable to not mention in a comment. What I’ve seen is that instances are defederating from exploding-heads. I’ve gone there, seen some edgier memes, some christianity oriented memes, some better memes(those three not being the same memes obv, the Biden ones are pretty unfunny). I’ve seen some honestly sensible policies - instead of banning people for using le bad words, they encourage people who are sensitive to such stuff to block and move on. You seem to call people fucking Nazis for using language that offends you, right?
@kityr I tell you not to sealion and then you fucking do it right before me like the dumbest sociopath who’s ever lived
You whine that everyone deserves a voice, “everyone” includes the fascists
This isn’t Twitter, this isn’t Reddit, shut your mouth and go tf back to Reddit
Would you stop putting labels on people and provide the actual fucking examples that cause you to call people Nazis? Or have you simply taken someone’s word for it? You’re a nazi too btw, why? Because I said so, duh.
You can read about what tf is sealioning on wikipedia.
Do you think “racism, bigotry, sexism is allowed" is a sensible policy? If so, you are on the wrong instance.
What do you mean by edgier memes? Possibly Nazi content?
you like it when “other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum” is getting challenged? because that’s the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one
The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn’t deserve a place at the table. There’s a difference between “let’s decide whose economic policy is more useful now” and “hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn’t deserve to live at all.”
Nazi’s deserve to be named, shamed, and ignored.
Blocking instances actually makes the lives of instance admins a lot easier. It not only reduces a whole chunk of problematic content for you to moderate, but it also encourages Nazis to go to the servers you block instead of yours. Nazis can’t subscribe to the subs they want to on your server, and they get banned if they say Nazi shit, so they just leave and go to a Nazi server instead. It’s like fly paper for Nazis lol.
As a Mastodon admin with a few thousand users, I rarely see Nazi content that I have to moderate. And that’s because when I started I spent an enormous amount of time sifting through every server we federated with and blocking all of the Nazis and all the pedos and all the TERFs. And because I did that at the start, I only get maybe 10 reports a week, none of them are content that would traumatize me (almost always spam), and I also helped the servers that now use my list to do the same.
Blocking instances not only makes it easier for me to do my job, it encourages other admins to not tolerate these kinds of behaviors as well. Because if they don’t moderate well, that attracts Nazis, and then we have to limit or ban them because we’re volunteers. So everyone just ends up blocking the shittiest servers and moderates their user base well. It’s a win/win for everyone.
Nazis are not entitled to access to minorities on my server. TERFs are not entitled to access to trans users on my server. Assholes are not entitled to have access to an audience on my server. There are tons of white supremacists or TERFs or other assholes hosting plenty of other servers where they can go and do that. But I don’t want that on servers I host and my users don’t want that on servers I host. If you truly believe free speech is such a big fucking deal, then you are welcome to leave and join one of those rotting servers as well. See how fun that is for you and how long it takes for you to come crawling back.