• anfieldiro
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    1 year ago

    Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice

    • hare_ware@pawb.social
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      1 year ago

      I agree with this, but some beliefs are well… utterly stupid and not worth reconsidering. It’s a waste of time really.

      • pingveno
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        1 year ago

        It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous, particularly when “worthless” involves prison sentences.

        • epicspongee [they/them or he/him]@midwest.social
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          1 year ago

          It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous

          Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying ‘Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice’ removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying ‘everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!’ is limiting the voice of minorities.

          • pingveno
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            1 year ago

            You misunderstand me. Not everyone deserves to be given attention or a platform. The government just shouldn’t have the power to mete out punishment to individuals or institutions for their speech. Governments need to be as consistent as possible in keeping out of the business of censoring speech.

          • pingveno
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            1 year ago

            Sure. In authoritarian states, it’s common to outlaw “lies” about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing “lies” about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia’s “everything is fine” narrative. There’s also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.

            I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political opinions. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.

          • pingveno
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            1 year ago

            None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.

        • boentrough
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          1 year ago

          We actually had a whole war about this, it was pretty universally decided there’s one way of thinking that is not compatible with humanity. It’s like the only forbidden ideology.

          We don’t have to debate it.

          “Some human lives don’t have value” being essentially universally rejected does make it seem edgy and cool to monsters and people people who just need to find out those ideas exclude them from society. However, the way these people are handled is by telling them these ideas are bad and won’t be tolerated. One group doubles down, the other decides to learn why and moves on with their lives.

          That’s the whole discussion, there isn’t debate.

          What exchange of ideas do you want with Nazis?

          “Do all humans have value?”

          “Yes, eugenics, apartheid, genocide, and Holocaust are evil and can’t be tolerated”

          “What about the well understood steps, lies and propaganda used to make those ideas seem acceptable.”

          “We also recognize those and won’t debate them.”

          “What about free speech?”

          “The government will not stop you from exposing yourself as a Nazi, no one else has to tolerated it.”

          “But both sides”

          “GTFO”

          • pingveno
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            1 year ago

            We actually had a whole war about this, it was pretty universally decided there’s one way of thinking that is not compatible with humanity. It’s like the only forbidden ideology.

            My problem is that “forbidden ideology” suffers from mission creep. First you’re going after Nazis, then it’s others ideologies. Communists or capitalists. Religions (think Islam in the US post-9/11). “Hate” that is just uncomfortable to a majority group. Simply outlawing Nazis is the easy way out. Also, defining “Nazis” or “fascists” has problems of who gets to decide. Some people are willing to apply that label willy nilly. Hell, I’ve been labeled as fascist on this server, even though any actual fascist would struggle to find common cause with me.

            I’m 100% for making it difficult for Nazis, white nationalists, etc. to spread their hatred. But the moment you start clapping handcuffs on them for their (shitty) words, you’re setting a precedent that is in practice misused.

            • boentrough
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              1 year ago

              Yes, yes we should all be Elon Musk style “free speech” absolutists, and we shouldn’t be intolerant of intolerance, because that’s the real intolerance.

              You used alot of words to literally support Nazis.

              I’m sorry I don’t know what to tell you.

              I said we have chosen one, just one forbidden ideology, because it literally calls for death camps, and your response is, “if we don’t support the death camp ideology, someone might not support the antideath camp ideology”.

              I don’t know how to respond to that, but only because you had to misinterpret what I said, and the amount of mental gymnastics what you said took makes the flaws self evident in what you said.

              • pingveno
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                1 year ago

                Did you read the last sentence of my comment? Or any of my other comments? I’m okay with platforms censoring whatever speech they want. I just think citizens should be protected from government censorship.

                • boentrough
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                  1 year ago

                  If you hate Nazis and support preventing government censorship you agree with me. But you sure did come along to argue.

    • epicspongee [they/them or he/him]@midwest.social
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      1 year ago

      Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice

      Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.

      Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.

      • tobor@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.

        It’s not controversial at all. The only people making “controversy” out of it are the ones who are mad they can’t spew hate

      • anfieldiro
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        1 year ago

        Sure, but did they actually say they want to murder minorities?? I’m yet to see that

    • CurlyWurlies4All@slrpnk.net
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      1 year ago

      Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.

    • MrEUser@lemmy.ninja
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      1 year ago

      The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…

      The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.

      • mc1472@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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        1 year ago

        You in fact can yell fire in a theater without being arrested. It depends on the context (and weather or not there where injuries)

        If the play calls for it and an actor says it. Or more simply if the theater is on fire.

        With speech laws it matters more what the context is to the intended audience than what is specifically said.

        • MrEUser@lemmy.ninja
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          1 year ago

          Did I not mention being responsible for injuries? Your absolutely right, but you’re not correct…

        • boentrough
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          1 year ago

          This is actually a dumb response.

          You knew the content and context, and answered a different question to look smart.

          It made you look dumber.

      • anfieldiro
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        1 year ago

        So you ban the “everyone deserves a voice” types? Because that’s what I said.

          • anfieldiro
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            1 year ago

            Tf is to sealion?? And I’d like to see the nazis you seem to be unable to not mention in a comment. What I’ve seen is that instances are defederating from exploding-heads. I’ve gone there, seen some edgier memes, some christianity oriented memes, some better memes(those three not being the same memes obv, the Biden ones are pretty unfunny). I’ve seen some honestly sensible policies - instead of banning people for using le bad words, they encourage people who are sensitive to such stuff to block and move on. You seem to call people fucking Nazis for using language that offends you, right?

            • @kityr I tell you not to sealion and then you fucking do it right before me like the dumbest sociopath who’s ever lived

              You whine that everyone deserves a voice, “everyone” includes the fascists

              This isn’t Twitter, this isn’t Reddit, shut your mouth and go tf back to Reddit

              • anfieldiro
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                1 year ago

                Would you stop putting labels on people and provide the actual fucking examples that cause you to call people Nazis? Or have you simply taken someone’s word for it? You’re a nazi too btw, why? Because I said so, duh.

                • Lileath@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                  1 year ago

                  You do know that words have a meaning, right? If you express the behaviour of a certain group you usually are part of it.

                • boentrough
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                  1 year ago

                  You see when someone moderates an instance, they don’t have to do what you say. 🤷

                • boentrough
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                  1 year ago

                  You see when someone moderates an instance, they don’t have to do what you say. 🤷

            • boentrough
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              1 year ago

              What do you mean by edgier memes? Possibly Nazi content?

    • fiah@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 year ago

      I like my beliefs challenged

      you like it when “other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum” is getting challenged? because that’s the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one

    • Mirshe@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn’t deserve a place at the table. There’s a difference between “let’s decide whose economic policy is more useful now” and “hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn’t deserve to live at all.”