Immigration absolutely helps the US economy, because it parasitically siphons all the skilled workers out of other countries that it underdevelops and hoards their labor for itself.
People think remittances help underdeveloped countries, but labor is the superior of capital, losing that skilled labor is never worth the paltry sums that get sent back home. It’s just another shape that imperialism takes.
In Canada we heavily base immigration on education. So we’re siphoning off the best educated of other countries. I mean this is just fucking those countries.
That’s truly one of the worst things about brain drain / educated people moving to the imperial core countries for the high salaries. Global south countries really need educated young people helping to solve their own problems, and Canada and the US rip out their heart and soul.
At least in tech / programming, a good chunk of us are devoting most of our labor time to not just wasteful things, but actively harmful things, like trying to get people to click on ads, or increasing viral engagement.
I mean tbf (at least in my case as an Egyptian) it’s not just the high salaries. Maybe Egypt is an extreme case but this country just has no future. The regime isn’t just dictatorial; it’s also dumb. There’s almost no money going to scientific research, the system as a whole was outdated 50 years ago, the military is monopolizing everything and undercutting the market because they can use
slaveconscript labor and don’t pay taxes, etc etc. I’m firmly of the opinion that this is at least partially caused by Britain’s unwillingness to fully decolonize in the 1920s and their godawful decolonization in the 1950s, but the fact remains that these countries have a duty to their people that they’re not fulfilling, and that’s why brain drain happens.As a living example of said brain drain, salaries were near the bottom of my priority list when I made the decision. I was more concerned about living somewhere where I don’t need to worry about being arrested because I said my opinion on the internet (or even just complained about prices) or because I do my prayers at the mosque (I was actually told by my mother to not go to the mosque all the time because I might get arrested. It’s that bad). Below that were things like a sane administration that actually cares about things being even just barely functional, a decent education system and academia and the ability to have confidence that the country will actually exist in 20 years. Living in a wildly different country (especially as a Muslim in Japan as is my case (halal food is a pain to get here)) is such a pain you couldn’t pay me to do it, but it’s hard to turn down actually getting to have a future.
What I wanna say is that it’s not just the Global South being undercut by the West; many Global South countries are failing at fulfilling their responsibility towards their constituents, and that’s why they’re leaving. Now how much the West was involved in creating this situation is another story, but you can’t reduce it to just high salaries. Global South governments, as a rule, aren’t interesting in solving their own problems. That’s why the problem solvers go solve Western rich people’s problems.
Egypt is also a useful case study, because the US props up its shitty government. That’s also part of how the Global South is underdeveloped, it’s a multifaceted machine that sucks out everyone who can help make the country better and gives support and resources to the people making it worse. It’s not just legacy from the 20’s and 50’s, this is an ongoing problem that is created by imperialism.
Also when a Global South government tries to solve its problems, such as through nationalizing resources or land reform, the US buries them under sanctions and attempts to make a regime change. This, too, is part of how imperialism underdevelops the Global South.
I get what you two are saying, but this kind of removes agency from the people doing the moving.
Also: Should people not be allowed to move to another country if they’re “too useful” or “skilled”?
People make their own history, but they do not make it as they please. Our material conditions limit our agency. We go where the jobs are, where the money is, where the possibilities for a better future are. Those are all choices.
But you can’t ignore the material conditions that lead to those choices. We aren’t just free floating agents in a sea of possibilities.
People make their own history, but they do not make it as they please.
Never said they or we do
Our material conditions limit our agency.
Totally agree
I think you may have misspoke. You said I’m removing their agency. I did no such thing.
Your phrasing of your first comment certainly read that way to me. I didn’t misspeak. If I did not understand your meaning/intention that’s a fair claim.
Hi, one of the people that did the move: they are absolutely right. I got through uni and masters for free at federal universities, my education is amazing. My country gets nothing back because there is no industry there that’d take me and university positions are limited.
I made the bese choice for myself and am aware of how bad my choice is for home
But I agree with you? I’m not sure what we disagree on?
That’s not it, but in many cases Western imperialism is involved in the conditions that made these people want to leave in the first place.
I’m not blaming them I am saying they still often make a decision. They are humans who have some control of their lives. That’s not mutually exclusive with saying they are also pressured externally.
The way they were originally described made it sound like they are just pieces on a board incapable of deciding what they want and acting on it.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say anymore. What’s the point you’re trying to make here?
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/1000729/-/comment/6477868
Yeah and nobody is saying they don’t have agency. You’re preaching to… no one?
People don’t have free agency to move to any country they want. In my view the free agency which you say is being removed never actually existed in the first place.
But I do find it funny that “give me your poor” (yes I’m borrowing from the US) turned into “give me your elite”.
I didn’t say people had free agency to go to any country they want. You are presenting a false dichotomy. There are different people with different access to different places with different senses of urgency and for different reasons. Many people make choices on whether or not to immigrate, as well as where to immigrate if they choose to. They have agency, they are not just pawns in this discussion to be shuffled around.
There’s no agency in the market. That’s the entire point of markets - being independent of a single human’s whims and being an equalizing force, the “invisible hand”.
And the entire point of communism is getting that agency, having production for the sake of humans rather than humans for the sake of production.
I think you have lost the thread here tbh
No, migration is caused by economics, so it only makes sense to use economics to talk about it. In capitalism, migration follows the market laws, i.e. people migrating to where they expect to be paid more.
I took basic Econ. My point is decisions are multi-faceted. We are not all slaves of the invisible hand 24/7 as it guides our every single decision.
Idk about everyone else, but I think the issue is something like the “oh so you hate capitalism but participate in it?” meme.
An argument for agency can be made either for or against, but for most it boils down to the reality of the society you’re trying to exist in. It’s just a huge distraction that you’ve created along with others for anecdotal conversations. This is a US sitting democratic president calling insults to allies during a time-period where conflict is on the rise, while completely negating any resolutions that could impede the death being caused.
We could talk about Biden’s own xenophobia with the immigration and border response. His past with the crime bill and other negative legislation. The fact that the entire Democratic Party is xenophobic to anyone outside of their party including the “poor” or progressive strangers they fear so much, like we saw with the recent condemnation of the protests against Palestinian genocide.
Instead you’ve made 10+ comments bringing up other countries to blame, links back to other comments in this thread, boasting about taking a basic Econ class and proclaiming you’ve won because a couple of people upvoted you. I understand your argument, it’s just not valid at this time or during this discussion and you’re trying to force it with hostility till people “get it”.
It also has a chicken-egg problem. What if the indicators of talent or skill aren’t apparent because of abysmally poor living and educational conditions? The lack of opportunity in many developing countries is such that people will be less successful and appear less talented simply because their country has limited ways for them to demonstrate it.
I mean that’s the whole point of the US higher education system, excepting the Republicans (with the help of Democrats) broke the parts of our immigration system that is supposed to take advantage of educating the world.
Did you just say people moving to the US for a better life are a part of imperialism?
Don’t misunderstand, the people moving to the US are blameless. Imperialism works by siphoning up all of the skilled labor around the world for itself in order to make life better for people within the imperial core, and this is part of how the imperial nations underdevelop other countries. People get educations in their home countries (often at the government’s expense) and then they take that education out of the country to put it to use in the US (or France or Canada etc). They’re just going where the jobs are, though, that’s not their fault at all.
Except where there’s little opportunity to utilize the highly skilled labor. They are going abroad anyway to find job opportunities befitting of their skill set and the highest bidder. Doesn’t matter if the US or EU took them, they’re leaving because the local opportunity doesn’t exist.
Yes, and the people who could develop that local opportunity aren’t there. They all leave as soon as they can.
That’s why I said they’re underdeveloped countries. They’re not “developing” in truth, but are being kept from becoming developed. How do you think that happens? In part it happens because of the IMF giving predatory loans and then imposing austerity on the people when the government can’t pay their loans back, but it also happens because labor is the superior of capital and these countries are losing skilled labor.
I am not blaming them for leaving their countries. I am blaming underdevelopment, which is a product of imperialism.
And who maintains the status quo, that there is no local opportunity so they have to coon out to FIVE-EYES nations?
The president made the remark while arguing that Japan, along with Russia and China, would perform better economically if the countries embraced immigration more.
Oh, well that’s true enough. Japan is crazy anti immigration despite that being a solution to their low birth rate.
I can’t speak to Russia or China, but Japan has a history of xenophobia going back CENTURIES. It’s not exactly a newsflash.
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True, also: from what I understand, Korea has been historically worse.
Just looked it up, looks like a nosedive!
Even still, it’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
That pot better be careful around police…
What are the effective rates of immigration for the involved countries ?
Not enough people know about the time when we invaded Canada and raped all their women
Russia is wildly xenophobic
Which Russians? Ethnic groups in Russia
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I think Biden’s definition of xenophobic here is “unwilling to sacrifice everything in a suicidal world war on the Pacific front”
No. It means not liking foreigners, making it hard for them to find housing or get credits.
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About all 3 tbh. China and russia are literally in the middle of committing genocides. Doesnt get much more xenophobic than that lol
Why am I seeing multiple news reports today about Joe Biden where they remove context to polarize his comments further? This feels, to me, like a new media trend
Propaganda?
It doesn’t need to be propaganda, just maximizing clicks will do that for you organically.
Yes. Foreign or domestic. Who knows?
CNN is owned by Warner Bros. Discovery, an American company.
The post, not the site.
Every news article posted here and across all platforms is public relations, or propaganda. You need / must understand this. There are 1200 stories, graphics, and videos posted per day, just from the Wash. Post. source
the number includes both staff-produced articles and wire stories, written elsewhere. The *Post *editorial staff itself produces about 500 stories per day, she said.
Every story is curated in some way as it filters here. Users decide what they deem worthy of posting.
It’s all propaganda, unless it’s my side. /s
It ain’t new, half of W’s bushisms were an attempt to avoid giving news media a sound bite or quote out of context
This is on .ml
Oh man, I almost never check. It sure is.
Japan simply is xenophobic. I lived there for 2 years. That’s just a fact.
I lived there for four years. Nice and friendly people. Never felt unsafe.
Unsafe doesn’t mean they liked or respected you as an equal
True. But I did mention that they were also friendly. I had no issue getting into all sorts of activities with them. From playing the Shamisen to practicing Sadō. I had lots of friends who would help me out in all sorts of things, such as the University entrance exam, moving stuff, and translation.
I’m speaking of my experiences of course. I come from a different cultural background (Arab). I lived in both the US and Japan, and in almost all aspects except employment and income, I prefer Japan. Your mileage may vary.
I shared that experience. I also was actively excluded from all sorts of things (including essential services) because I was a foreigner. Whenever a group of expats got together, at some point in the night, the conversation would be about how everyone got discriminated against recently.
Did you put effort into learning Japanese? I didn’t experience any exclusion.
Welcome, though? They pretty famously don’t like foreigners around them, even if they’re not going to say it directly to you.
Have you lived there? Not my experience. I felt like I was welcomed. I was welcomed into their cultural activities, I was welcomed into their homes. I did put effort into learning the language and the culture, and followed their norms to the best I can.
No, but a lot of other people have and you’re a definite minority saying that, so, X to doubt basically.
It’s not just people who don’t bother trying, either. BBC’s long term Japan correspondent wrote an article about it when he finally left, and I’m pretty sure he’s fluent.
… BBC’s long term Japan correspondent wrote an article about it when he finally left, and I’m pretty sure he’s fluent.
I wouldn’y be too sure about being fluent part. I am an Indian and I have seen bulk of so called indologists (professors in American and European academia) unable to pronounce common sanskrit words - despite writing bestsellers on the subject.
Never felt unsafe is a very low bar. Not feeling unsafe now
He’s not wrong but also I believe there’s a saying in English about stones and glass houses.
Even the most bigoted parts of the US are nowhere near as xenophobic as Japan. Housing discrimination based on race is still perfectly acceptable over there, many people will refuse to rent to foreigners.
perfectly acceptable
At least some governments in Japan appear to disagree:
Japan signed the “International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD)” in 1996
Tokyo Metropolitan Government educates real estate agents on the illegality of nationality-based rental refusals, considering them discriminatory
And the article itself seems to contradict with those statements…
Do you think there isn’t housing discrimination happening in the US?
Black families often have their homes appraised for less than white family homes.
Housing applications often get denied if the person has a non white last name.
Hell, the last time I was looking around for a room to rent I got asked multiple times over the phone. “You’re white right?”
Xeno Biden doesn’t care.
Don’t let your stones hang out if you live in a glass house? /s
I swear I’ve heard balls referred to as stones likely by a British person, but I don’t know if I’m making that up.
China xenophobic? I don’t think Biden knows what the word means. The oldest mosque outside of the Middle East is in China of all places built in 627 CE, and still standing.
What happened to the mosques in Spain and Occupied Palestine? Turned into bars and chicken coops.
Okay I hate the West as much as any other guy, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. China 1400 years ago isn’t in any way the same as China today. Nowadays it’s that most Muslim Chinese groups are accepted as Chinese (the Hui are about as Chinese as the Han, for example) and that’s why they can practice Islam in peace; otherwise you’re treated like the Uighurs. Also foreigners in China are absolutely treated as outsiders; that’s just a fact.
dynasties and ideologies came and went in China and the mosques still stand
what happened to mosques in Spain? what is happening to mosques in Occupied Palestine and India right now?
Islam is xeno (foreign) to China and yet you have mosques from the 7th and 8th centuries still standing
otherwise you’re treated like the Uighurs.
here’s an interesting fact, they are the only Turkic people who still use their centuries old script, and haven’t been secularized and westernized unlike Turks in the former USSR or Turkiye.
The issue for the Uyghurs is separatism, not Islam or culture in particular. No nation will tolerate separatists. https://dkiapcss.edu/college/publications/uyghur-muslim-ethnic-separatism-in-xinjiang-china/ https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/east-turkestan-islamic-movement-etim
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation report on the Uyghur did not find anything concerning, though the OIC has been criticized by Western rights groups. Interestingly, when it comes to Palestine the situation is reversed, where the OIC is speaking up but Western rights groups have been mostly silent. It is confusing seeing Anthony Blinken criticize China for the alleged genocide of Uyghurs, I haven’t seen any images or videos that suggest it is real, but unabashedly defend Israel’s actions which are clear and evident genocide.
Okay honestly as a fellow Muslim (I think you mentioned that somewhere else before???) what you’re doing right now is actually shameful. Just a week ago one man was arrested because he was advising people to not drink or smoke. Uighurs are literally sent to concentration camps and are subjected to forced labor and there you are defending their treatment because you don’t like the West. You need to rethink your priorities, seriously.
here’s an interesting fact, they are the only Turkic people who still use their centuries old script, and haven’t been secularized and westernized unlike Turks in the former USSR or Turkiye.
I mean yes that’s the problem. Islam is no longer foreign to China; again the Hui are as Chinese as the Han. Islam is not, in fact, xeno in China. The Uighurs are, being Turkic people.
Western rights groups have been mostly silent.
What? The Palestinian cause has progressed light years thanks to the work of groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. They came late to the party but they have not been silent, no way.
Okay honestly as a fellow Muslim
So you’re gonna minstrel out for the white man, parrot his bullshit when I know for a fact you’ve never once set foot near Xinjiang? Can you even pronounce Xinjiang? How about organizations of your presumed peers, since you wanna claim Islam like that, how about the OIC reports that found nothing worth talking about there? Why hasn’t anyone in the middle east chatted shit about the Uyghurs? 🦝 shit if you actually are what you claim to be.
Why hasn’t anyone in the middle east chatted shit about the Uyghurs?
Because there’s absolutely no awareness about the issue here. Or about almost anything concerning Russia and China. People here thing Russia is their friend and Ukraine deserves it for having a Zionist president while forgetting that it’s Russia behind Al Asad. Also China is, when all’s said and done, on good terms with the Middle East and general Muslim world. I don’t think anyone is too excited to damage that relation by acknowledging the Uighurs’ suffering.
Jesus fuckin christ the last time I heard this much coonery in one place I was listening to Morehouse’s faculty breathlessly justifying Biden giving a commencement speech in the midst of a verifiable genocide he aids and abets. You really think no one in that region has put eyes on the Xinjiang situation? You really think we have issues with Ukraine over the Zionist issue first and foremost when we’ve been VERY LOUD ABOUT THE NAZIS IN THEIR BRIGADES?? You might as well be Anglo-Amerikan for how you’re talking right now.
Okay I hate the West as much as any other guy, but
but you’re about to power right on through that, aren’t you?
otherwise you’re treated like the Uighurs.
Shot, chaser. Thanks for giving me a three-line lib Bingo, btw; the last space I needed was ‘someone trying to resurrect Adrian Zenz in this thread’.
not demolishing a single mosque isn’t exactly the kind of standard one sets when determining xenophobia
still a higher standard than many modern Western states such as Israel, or a modern democracy such as India, if the Chinese were xenophobic they could have demolished the mosque at any point in history, they didn’t
I will instantly downvote that hag
I mean he’s not wrong, but where does he expect China to get immigrants from? They’re 20% of the world.
He’s also cherry picking data. It’s a weird flex.
The proportion of immigrants in the US isn’t exactly high compared to somewhere like Canada.
I mean the US is 15% immigrants, or about 50 million people. I know we like to shit on the US but that’s a ridiculously big number.
In terms of raw numbers thee US has a huge population so it has more of everything, whether that’s immigrants or murderers or doctors or pedophiles.
In perms of the percentage of its population tho, 15% is somewhere in the middle of the pack, well behind countries like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland etc.
Boasting that you have more immigration than random countries like Japan is just odd.
Boasting that you have more immigration than random countries like Japan is just odd.
He’s not boasting; he’s saying that immigration would do a lot to solve their problems; and he’s correct. I hate Biden’s guts but he’s correct here. For context Japan is a notoriously xenophobic country and currently sits at a 2%. They’re not “a random country”.
In perms of the percentage of its population tho, 15% is somewhere in the middle of the pack, well behind countries like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland etc.
I mean people deciding to come to your country isn’t proportional to your population, or really related at all. It’d be like expecting China to have the same 15% as the US (for context that’d be about 250 million people). That’s just not how that works.
There are also different immigration rates for different states, some of which are as big as major countries. There are many states in the US driving the national average down because they have such a low percentage.
Edit: added some stats.
I agree he specifically called out Japan to contrast with the US because its immigration was weaker.
people deciding to come to your country isn’t proportional to your population
Are you saying fewer people decide to come to the US than to those other countries?
Seems unlikely. Pretty sure the US could let in a lot more immigrants if it wanted to.
Pretty sure the US could let in a lot more immigrants if it wanted to.
I mean yes that’s the case for everyone. I’m saying the number of people applying to immigration to the US isn’t four times that of Germany, for example, so even if they accept people according to the exact same criteria Germany will have a bigger percentage.
Are you sure? I’d expect the number applying to the US would be hundreds of times higher than the number applying to New Zealand.
I don’t especially love or hate Biden btw, I mean I can’t stand US foriegn policy on the Gaza Genocide but it’s not like their other mainstream politicians wouldn’t have done more or less the same. It’s a real pity the US hadn’t been able to elect someone like Bernie Sanders.
For the same reason we can’t take 15min without the context of the US’s size, smaller countries having larger percentages also need to be contextualized. The raw number does have some meaning here. It’s also about annual rate of immigration.
The US has been wavering between 16% and 15% for about a decade which is when I started taking an interest in this stuff. It’s a fairly steady state.
My country has risen from 25% to 27% first generation migrants in that timeframe.
Per capita is a much more useful for comparing effects on total workforce etc.
It’s not necessarily good or bad per se. I think there are so many variables at play, everything from type of migration, underlying birth rate of host country through to effect on housing stock and whether taxes and infrastructure can keep pace.
But yeah Biden’s speech was just strange given that context.
It would be much more useful to look at it state-by-state as a few states are doing the heavy lifting. I say this as someone is decidedly pro-immigration. The logistics are no small matter
I live in Louisiana. Our only major experience with immigration was hurricane Katrina and they basically rebuilt our communities. I am eternally grateful.
Lmfao
As always, more projection
Lol what?
He’s literally pushing through an anti-immigration bill, also we have always had a strong nativist movement
The US is one of the most xenophobic countries in the world.
Japan is notably more xenophobic. No matter how long you live in Japan, even if you manage to get full citizenship (which even celebrities who have lived there for decades struggle with), you are never considered “Japanese” by the native-born Japanese people.
The USA on the other hand is comparatively easy to become a citizen of and has laws banning discrimination based on race and national origin for employers. A citizen is a citizen is a citizen. The only job in the entire country that requires you be born as a citizen is the POTUS.
It’s pretty damn hard to become a citizen in the US, and there are several studies showing that even legal immigrants from non-white countries with citizenship will face discrimination for their entire time in the US. Let’s not forget how we treat people at the border either. There’s significant evidence of genocidal treatment of immigrants at the Southern border, like forced sterilization
Right, but in Japan it’s legal for businesses to racially descriminate against both potential customers and potential hires. During the height of the COVID pandemic, many businesses had “No Foreigners allowed” signs due to the perception that COVID was spread by foreigners. In the US there’s lots of controversy over racism, but in Japan you don’t hear about it because it’s generally the accepted status quo.
To be clear, I’m not saying the US is not xenophobic. What I am saying is that from an American perspective, Japan is even more so.
most?
Don’t get out much, eh? Xenophobia is present all throughout the world in different amounts, it has its roots in any insulated human nature. The US is far from the worst on Earth though, despite whatever cherry-picked propaganda one may read. We just do have some, particularly in more interior regions.
I don’t hear about other countries doing forced sterilization on immigrants.
Yeah I’m not clicking on that. Assuming it’s about the ICE facility allegations from 2020 though. And yeah, Trump is a monster. Make no mistake, the US could go fully fascist if we let it, there are certainly xenophobic elements within the country. It’s not a majority opinion though.
“majority opinion” doesn’t matter, government actions do. Regardless of the majority opinion, what has occurred and other things that continue to occur are irreparably destroying lives and killing people.
If all government actions from any point in time are what matter, and not the democratic opinions of the populace or the actions of the current government, then I’d say the worst was Mongolia under Genghis Khan.
This is emphatically wrong on every level. You’re calling an entire country and it’s inhabitants xenophobic, yet you’re referring to the actions of a far-right figure we not only voted out of office, but never voted to put in in the first place (he lost the popular vote.)
You’re ironically very xenophobic - even if you are American. Because most Americans are welcoming as part of our culture. To be against that is not only wrong, it’s also very unfounded.
Amerika already is full-fascist; if you can’t tell, you haven’t been paying attention. Must be comfortable where you’re at.
Have you ever actually been outside the US?
I’d argue they’ve ever never been inside it, or they live in some crazy, far-right city.
It’s really not. Not to sound like I’m erasing racism in the US, but the reason you hear about it is because it’s tested and contested so much. It’s almost always way worse in more homogeneous nations.
Its really not and I challenge you to provide stats that say otherwise. Of course its one of the countries with the most racial tension, but that comes along with being one of the most racially diverse.
Does forced sterilization lend any credibility to that statement?
Americans are so racist they don’t even realize how racist they are, and get mad when you point it out.
It’s the second largest multi-ethnic democracy on Earth.
What do you mean by this? I live in the US on the Mexico border and we are extremely welcoming.
Stop getting your facts from Fox News.
People are allowing perfect be the enemy of good. We could treat migrants better and improve the visa pipeline, but once they acclimate they are just another person.
once they acclimate
I’m curious what you consider “acclimation” (and I assume you mean assimilate) because that’s a pretty loaded requirement
"Just assimilate into settler-vapidity and you won’t get discriminated against anymore; won’t keep the crackers from misidentifying where you’re from and gunning you down in the street over it anyway."
Pretty much
Man no. Just… No.
I don’t think you know what that word means.
As neat as Japan sounds and as much as I’d like to be there, I mean, he’s not wrong
I watch YouTubers who moved to and live there talk about how they’re just indefinitely treated like a tourist
Yet Japan still bows down to their masters in DC. Can Japan for once wake up along with occupied Korea?
There are a lot of people in South Korea that hates the US and Japan way more than the DPRK or China. There are still a strong anti-US sentiment in Okinawa and near US bases in Japan, these led to the 1960 and 1970 Anpo protests in Japan.
