I think we’re beginning to see Mexico flex it’s cultural muscles out of the latinesphere.
Not videogames, but latine culture inspired shows like Villainos, El Tigre, and my personal nostalgia bait MUCHA LUCHA!!!, definitely foretell Mexico entering the same space of cultural influence in the west as places like Japan with Anime and JRPGs
Is “latine” the new latinx after that got overwhelmingly rejected by actually latino people? If so that seems very presumptuous to try, again, to push something onto a foreign language the speakers do not want.
It also reads very unfortunate, I did a triple take because I kept processing it as latrine.
Native speaker here and I totally agree. Every other word is gendered. What, am I gonna call a washing machine lavadore or car carrx? This definitely feels like North Americans trying to colonize our language.
Honestamente tengo mis problemas con los españoles quitando tantos idiomas y creencias indígenas para empezar. Pero no estamos hablando del nahuatl o de los mayas.
Aunque es cierto que idiomas vivas cambian para reflejar los valores y preferencias gramáticas de sus usuarios, no es algo que puede ser forzado de tal manera. Palabras son “prestadas” de otros lenguajes todo el tiempo para describir cosas nuevas o por lo menos para sonar un poco más distinguido. El problema que yo veo con cambiando todo un idioma que requiere género con tantas palabras es que se va a transformar a todo un nuevo idioma para acomodarlo. Eso requiere un nivel de coordinación entre gente e instituciones y gobiernos que no será fácil si no imposible.
Intenta leer todo este pasaje con cada palabra que termina con o/a en la manera que esta gente insiste sea más “inclusiva”. Verás que va a sonar cómo una forma de catalán censurado.
I think Latin@ would be a better fit since it has both a and o in it. Who do a write to make this proposal official? Where is Latin@america central command?
Both of them were created by the queer community in Latin America but sure “pushing something onto a foreign language the speakers don’t want”
Acting like queer recognition is just white people shit is about as racist as you’re trying to make using a different word sound so how about we settle the fuck down about presumptuousness.
Typical white-american sjw behavior: using the queer community as an immunity card to say whatever you want and call transphobes to anyone who disagrees.
The queer community is a minority of latino america, they don’t have the final say over the rest of the people just because, non-queer people also deserve proportional recognition you know. And even if they did, that “latine/latinx” bs was made up by a minority of the queer community in an attempt to simulate the (grammatical) gender-neutral language seen in English and inexistent in Spanish.
So yeah, keep acting like forcing (again, grammatical) gender-neutral expressions over spanish-speaking cultures is not fucking racist. I’m gonna keep using the appropriate gender when speaking/using spanish words.
The conversation about latine replacing latinx is not new and not solely about the inclusion of queer communities but the fight for equality for feminist causes as well. You do whatever you want when speaking my language but as a native speaker I can tell you I want my words to have inclusivity.
I’m Spanish and still fail to see how adopting USA’s culture is inclusive to anyone. I mean you do you, I just get annoyed when someone talks about this without even knowing the language they want to change.
Edit: Forgot to add the fact “Latino” is an abbreviature of “Latinoamericano/Latinoamericana”. Now could you explain please what a Latinxamericano/a is and if it tastes good?
As a Spaniard explain the inclusion of the words big data, cookie, crack and balconing into the official language this year. Is the European language influence better than the American one for you?
Also I’m not advocating for the use of Latinx like at all. You want to get pissy with me that’s cool but at least be right.
It’s also not a question just being asked in the hispanosphere
In France l’acedemie francais had a category five meltdown over people using, in their own personal writing, a form of titles that included both the feminine and masculine endings when referring to everyone who identified by that title
They aren’t even inventing a neo-pronoun or de-gendering nouns, they’re just using both endings to be inclusive and even Macron’s ministers were calling it the end of frenchness.
Like guys, if the danelaw theory is correct, this was a conversation you were gonna be having pretty soon anyways with federalization on EU members’ lips.
As for myself, when speaking Arabic I use the local plurals for you and they instead of the gendered pronouns unless someone specifies what they want to be referred by. Not only is it more inclusive, it’s also more polite anyways since enton’ and huma can work honorifically like vous in francais anyways.
You were correct, this is quite an interesting read for me! Might actually send it along to some of my friends who work full time in D&I,
As for myself, I actually don’t suffix persons purely because I think folks works better
Congressfolks, postfolks, policefolks, milkfolks, doesn’t just neutral the name, it also feels like it makes them less hierarchical, folk carries a more friendly connotation as a suffix IMHO, in English it’s normally used to refer to your parents or grandparents, compared to person or people which feels more sterile and official sounding in comparison.
Sorry to see you are getting a bunch of hate but linguistic relativity is happening in real time as people angrily reply to you or people try to shout louder that they don’t want their language to change for the sake of inclusivity. Literally watching people live in denial and choosing to ignore that reality is changing around them is morbidly fascinating. This is a phenomena that transcends language, every fiber of humanity is diametrically opposed within itself. Some people want radical change and the possibility of prosperity for the majority and the other people want things to remain the same and within their control.
Like watching the bow burst on a sinking ship and losing yourself in the majesty and patterns within the utter destruction and chaos.
Now you’re calling me sexist just because? Btw, I’m finding hilarious the fact you assumed “machismo” is the masculine of “machista”, a freaking neutral word. The irony here is gold.
I never said being inclusive is bad, just that there are more appropriate ways to do it without changing every other language into english, ways i use in my day to day btw. Adding random “neutral” e’s and x’s sounds just moronic to most native speakers who actually know that gramatical gender doesn’t have literally anything to do with people’s gender.
Spanish doesn’t have “singular they”, nor “they”, and we mostly don’t need it. Neo-pronouns sound unnatural. And arguing (in English ffs) with actual native speakers about how bad we speak Spanish is literally the definition of forcing your language and morals on others.
Bruh you’re the one who barged into this argument over one letter but sure I’m the one forcing morals and language.
I didn’t correct anything, y’all the ones who dogpiled as if that one letter was coming for ya damned kids, y’all are literally having a boogeyman reaction to seeing someone use one letter once.
That’s what I meant when I called it Machismo moghafil. Y’all are a literal army of fucking babies who are so fragile that even other people have to conform to your sense of the language or else it’s gender colonialism or some spectacularly idiotic shit to justify why other people who aren’t you choosing to be nice to the trans and nb folks is somehow shoving something down your throat.
You’re like that bastard alcoholic nobody wants to confront at the party that starts throwing a shit fit because someone else decided to abstain for the night so they could be the designated driver for their friends.
I’m gonna talk in the way you want all Spanish speakers to do and hopefully you’ll see how stupid an idea it is to get rid of gendered words.
El (Elae?) RAE ne hablx per todes nosotres. Nuestrx manere de hablar ne es dictadx per un solx pinche institución real. Cambiande un idiomx tiene que venir por le voluntad colective de tode le gente que lo hablx.
Irony so thick you’d need two hands to slice through.
Your entire language is already changing, big data, balconing, cookie, and crack are all accepted words into the official Spanish language. Latine though, that’s one step too far huh?
Please tell me whether the word estudiante is masculine or feminine. How about paz, felicidad or azul?
No the entire language is not gendered but do go on about the language you claim to know but haven’t actually mastered.
Usians is not a term one gives themselves it’s a derogatory term used by others for exclusion and it’s ironic that you’d use one intended as an insult trying to defend against the use of one for inclusivity.
It ain’t just your language, and if a single letter change is “massacring” your language, you’re part of the exact reason why queer latine folks innovated the e and also that x y’all had a supernova tier meltdown over.
If your culture cannot survive intermixing with new ideas, it deserves to face the vultures.
I think much the same of how fiercely the French and Quebecoise flip their shit trying to “defend the language from Muslim and Anglo muddying”
Nobody deserves the indignity of being linguistically unpersoned just because recognizing them is apparently white people shit to your parent culture.
Colonialism isn’t when being a marginalized culture isn’t an excuse to also be bigots because someone in their own personal use of a language decides to be inclusive.
Latine at least sounds better, but I hate how close to latrine it is. The point is that we can identify our roots in Latin America when speaking with others, and unfortunately for the people trying to corrupt our lengua, the vast majority of speakers seem ok with using the subtleties of context in a Spanish sentence to understand that everyone is being referred to when using either Latino or Latina.
If that makes you uncomfortable, play with duo lingo some more until you truly grok this language.
I’d like a queer latino’s take on this, I’m truly interested in their opinion. Even that sentence, the majority understand I’m asking for input from everyone, whether I’d written Latino or Latina.
sim, babacão, ele mesmo. me acorda quando tivermos uma grande quantidade de pessoas que falam línguas latinas apoiando uma mudança tão grande na nossa língua, e não apenas gringos (e seus puxa-sacos) enchendo o saco.
You know uhh, no comment on the shit flinging in the comments, but I’ve always liked latine over latinx, feels more natural to use a vowel there than like, an x. Shout out to latiny as being the highly underrated evolution, which unifies both the use of a vowel and something adjacent to the x, while also sounding really dumb and funny.
I dunno. Seems similar to the outcries and moral panic that people used to have against neopronouns, or pronouns in bio, to me, without realizing that they use neopronouns all the time whenever they call someone dude or bro. I feel like I’ve left this comment here before, but I do wonder whether or not neopronouns like dude or bro are more acceptable because they’re kind of a more natural integration into language than most of the academic postulations on “oh, what if we made a gender-neutral singular pronoun”, or if they’re more acceptable precisely because they’re kind of gendered. We’re all dudes, hey, but at the same time, it would be kind of stupid to say that dude doesn’t refer to or see use by mostly men, and is kind of gendered. I dunno, I’m sure “dude” and “bro” were pretty heavily hated when they were used, so maybe it’s just that whenever anything novel with language is done, it’s doomed to be shat on relentlessly by prescriptivist nonces.
I dunno maybe we all just need to speak like, ithkuli or something, so nobody ever talks to each other.
Oh god imagine putting the world through learning to be fluent in ithkuil XD
Maximum expressiveness, maximum migraines
I’d be thankful just to get a spelling reform but English has somehow descriptivized its way into having worse spelling than prescribed written languages.
Eh, personally I find the letters too similar to one another, it’s like anti-shavian, where that was designed for every glyph to be distinct and to be a single stroke, ithkuil is complex and has a lot of glyphs that are hard to distinguish at a glance.
My ideal would be for a writing system where words are built from Hangul-like syllable blocks, every consonant is a single stroke glyph without any closed loops, and every vowel has to have at least one closed loop. I’ve also gotten really interested in the look of vertical writing systems so dat too :p
I think it works really well for the goals of the language (complexity and conciseness) although I still prefer V3. A Hangul like syllable block system is cool and has it’s benefits but if you’re clever then an abuguida is better since it makes more recognisable words in languages like English that are less analytic. Hangul is sick as hell tho and maybe I should make a version for English.
I think we’re beginning to see Mexico flex it’s cultural muscles out of the latinesphere.
Not videogames, but latine culture inspired shows like Villainos, El Tigre, and my personal nostalgia bait MUCHA LUCHA!!!, definitely foretell Mexico entering the same space of cultural influence in the west as places like Japan with Anime and JRPGs
Is “latine” the new latinx after that got overwhelmingly rejected by actually latino people? If so that seems very presumptuous to try, again, to push something onto a foreign language the speakers do not want.
It also reads very unfortunate, I did a triple take because I kept processing it as latrine.
Its hilarious, if you called a Mexican a fucking “latine” they’d look at you like you were a pinche mamon lmao.
Native speaker here and I totally agree. Every other word is gendered. What, am I gonna call a washing machine lavadore or car carrx? This definitely feels like North Americans trying to colonize our language.
Should we get rid of the word “refriador” then? How about “computadora”? Words borrowed from one of Mexico’s conquerors?
Lengas combia con tiempo. Si no quiers combira, aprendate Azteca o Maya. Los “verda” lenguas de Mexico y la Yucatan.
Honestamente tengo mis problemas con los españoles quitando tantos idiomas y creencias indígenas para empezar. Pero no estamos hablando del nahuatl o de los mayas.
Aunque es cierto que idiomas vivas cambian para reflejar los valores y preferencias gramáticas de sus usuarios, no es algo que puede ser forzado de tal manera. Palabras son “prestadas” de otros lenguajes todo el tiempo para describir cosas nuevas o por lo menos para sonar un poco más distinguido. El problema que yo veo con cambiando todo un idioma que requiere género con tantas palabras es que se va a transformar a todo un nuevo idioma para acomodarlo. Eso requiere un nivel de coordinación entre gente e instituciones y gobiernos que no será fácil si no imposible.
Intenta leer todo este pasaje con cada palabra que termina con o/a en la manera que esta gente insiste sea más “inclusiva”. Verás que va a sonar cómo una forma de catalán censurado.
Makes me think of latrine
Well it’s actually Latiné, so not pronounced “la-teen”
You’re clearly speaking french. Latiné lmao
I think Latin@ would be a better fit since it has both a and o in it. Who do a write to make this proposal official? Where is Latin@america central command?
How you gonna pronounce that? Latinat?
Latinao?
That just sounds like Jose stubbed his toe on something.
(a + o)/2 = ė
Both of them were created by the queer community in Latin America but sure “pushing something onto a foreign language the speakers don’t want”
Acting like queer recognition is just white people shit is about as racist as you’re trying to make using a different word sound so how about we settle the fuck down about presumptuousness.
Typical white-american sjw behavior: using the queer community as an immunity card to say whatever you want and call transphobes to anyone who disagrees.
The queer community is a minority of latino america, they don’t have the final say over the rest of the people just because, non-queer people also deserve proportional recognition you know. And even if they did, that “latine/latinx” bs was made up by a minority of the queer community in an attempt to simulate the (grammatical) gender-neutral language seen in English and inexistent in Spanish.
So yeah, keep acting like forcing (again, grammatical) gender-neutral expressions over spanish-speaking cultures is not fucking racist. I’m gonna keep using the appropriate gender when speaking/using spanish words.
‘Latinx’, un término que busca ser inclusivo entre los latinos
The conversation about latine replacing latinx is not new and not solely about the inclusion of queer communities but the fight for equality for feminist causes as well. You do whatever you want when speaking my language but as a native speaker I can tell you I want my words to have inclusivity.
I’m Spanish and still fail to see how adopting USA’s culture is inclusive to anyone. I mean you do you, I just get annoyed when someone talks about this without even knowing the language they want to change.
Edit: Forgot to add the fact “Latino” is an abbreviature of “Latinoamericano/Latinoamericana”. Now could you explain please what a Latinxamericano/a is and if it tastes good?
As a Spaniard explain the inclusion of the words big data, cookie, crack and balconing into the official language this year. Is the European language influence better than the American one for you?
Also I’m not advocating for the use of Latinx like at all. You want to get pissy with me that’s cool but at least be right.
It’s also not a question just being asked in the hispanosphere
In France l’acedemie francais had a category five meltdown over people using, in their own personal writing, a form of titles that included both the feminine and masculine endings when referring to everyone who identified by that title
They aren’t even inventing a neo-pronoun or de-gendering nouns, they’re just using both endings to be inclusive and even Macron’s ministers were calling it the end of frenchness.
Like guys, if the danelaw theory is correct, this was a conversation you were gonna be having pretty soon anyways with federalization on EU members’ lips.
As for myself, when speaking Arabic I use the local plurals for you and they instead of the gendered pronouns unless someone specifies what they want to be referred by. Not only is it more inclusive, it’s also more polite anyways since enton’ and huma can work honorifically like vous in francais anyways.
Here’s some reading that might interest you, What’s in a pronoun? Why gender-fair language matters
Basically keep up the good work, you’re doing humanity proud.
You were correct, this is quite an interesting read for me! Might actually send it along to some of my friends who work full time in D&I,
As for myself, I actually don’t suffix persons purely because I think folks works better
Congressfolks, postfolks, policefolks, milkfolks, doesn’t just neutral the name, it also feels like it makes them less hierarchical, folk carries a more friendly connotation as a suffix IMHO, in English it’s normally used to refer to your parents or grandparents, compared to person or people which feels more sterile and official sounding in comparison.
Æ ðen ðeıŗ ïz muı pŗſënël bıf w ıŋglïc ſpelıŋ, wïtc Aı fıl ïz löŋ ovŗdu foŗ ë ſırıëſ ovŗhaul.
Sorry to see you are getting a bunch of hate but linguistic relativity is happening in real time as people angrily reply to you or people try to shout louder that they don’t want their language to change for the sake of inclusivity. Literally watching people live in denial and choosing to ignore that reality is changing around them is morbidly fascinating. This is a phenomena that transcends language, every fiber of humanity is diametrically opposed within itself. Some people want radical change and the possibility of prosperity for the majority and the other people want things to remain the same and within their control.
Like watching the bow burst on a sinking ship and losing yourself in the majesty and patterns within the utter destruction and chaos.
Nobody’s forcing shit, you’re just too machismo to accept when someone tries to be nice in your language too
Singular they and neo-pronoun panic doesn’t suddenly become woke because you’re doing it in Spanish Moghafil.
Now you’re calling me sexist just because? Btw, I’m finding hilarious the fact you assumed “machismo” is the masculine of “machista”, a freaking neutral word. The irony here is gold.
I never said being inclusive is bad, just that there are more appropriate ways to do it without changing every other language into english, ways i use in my day to day btw. Adding random “neutral” e’s and x’s sounds just moronic to most native speakers who actually know that gramatical gender doesn’t have literally anything to do with people’s gender.
Spanish doesn’t have “singular they”, nor “they”, and we mostly don’t need it. Neo-pronouns sound unnatural. And arguing (in English ffs) with actual native speakers about how bad we speak Spanish is literally the definition of forcing your language and morals on others.
Bruh you’re the one who barged into this argument over one letter but sure I’m the one forcing morals and language.
I didn’t correct anything, y’all the ones who dogpiled as if that one letter was coming for ya damned kids, y’all are literally having a boogeyman reaction to seeing someone use one letter once.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/machismo
That’s what I meant when I called it Machismo moghafil. Y’all are a literal army of fucking babies who are so fragile that even other people have to conform to your sense of the language or else it’s gender colonialism or some spectacularly idiotic shit to justify why other people who aren’t you choosing to be nice to the trans and nb folks is somehow shoving something down your throat.
You’re like that bastard alcoholic nobody wants to confront at the party that starts throwing a shit fit because someone else decided to abstain for the night so they could be the designated driver for their friends.
Latino*
FTFY. Please don’t massacre our language.
Estas son las nuevas palabras incorporadas al diccionario por la RAE
If you think latine is an affront to Spanish check out these words accepted into the Spanish dictionary just this year.
You’re not fixing anything you’re just keeping things shitty.
its not yours to decide
It IS for the fucking RAE to decide though, they’re the Royal Acadamy of Spanish.
Sos tan boludo que nisiquiera puedes entender que hasta el RAE te odio, tenes problemas. Puedes leer ,o escribiste tu mensaje por voz a texto?
I’m gonna talk in the way you want all Spanish speakers to do and hopefully you’ll see how stupid an idea it is to get rid of gendered words.
El (Elae?) RAE ne hablx per todes nosotres. Nuestrx manere de hablar ne es dictadx per un solx pinche institución real. Cambiande un idiomx tiene que venir por le voluntad colective de tode le gente que lo hablx.
Looks like censored catalán
What makes you think it isn’t? It’s not English speakers that care about Spanish conjugation.
because substantives are gendered in spanish and similar. and your proposal is changing an entire fucking language you probably don’t even speak.
You don’t even know who’s talking to you, and it wasn’t an idea created by English speakers.
I don’t feign to have the power, only illuminating how weak the arguments against this change are.
so usians expect us to change our entire language because…?
Irony so thick you’d need two hands to slice through.
Your entire language is already changing, big data, balconing, cookie, and crack are all accepted words into the official Spanish language. Latine though, that’s one step too far huh?
no. our entire language is gendered.
stop saying things you understand nothing about. do you speak any language similar to spanish at all?
yes, funny how you name yourself after an entire continent like you own it. pretty fitting to your hissy fit though.
Please tell me whether the word estudiante is masculine or feminine. How about paz, felicidad or azul?
No the entire language is not gendered but do go on about the language you claim to know but haven’t actually mastered.
Usians is not a term one gives themselves it’s a derogatory term used by others for exclusion and it’s ironic that you’d use one intended as an insult trying to defend against the use of one for inclusivity.
It ain’t just your language, and if a single letter change is “massacring” your language, you’re part of the exact reason why queer latine folks innovated the e and also that x y’all had a supernova tier meltdown over.
Inclusivity ain’t just gringo shit Moghafil.
Unabashedly be a destructive culture vulture speedrun any%
If your culture cannot survive intermixing with new ideas, it deserves to face the vultures.
I think much the same of how fiercely the French and Quebecoise flip their shit trying to “defend the language from Muslim and Anglo muddying”
Nobody deserves the indignity of being linguistically unpersoned just because recognizing them is apparently white people shit to your parent culture.
Colonialism isn’t when being a marginalized culture isn’t an excuse to also be bigots because someone in their own personal use of a language decides to be inclusive.
Yikes. Well, at least I know no one will ever take your viewpoint seriously with all the holes and assumptions in it.
do you even speak the language?
Latine looks like a word, Latinx sounds like perfume or cologne
thats not how our language works
latino*
way to mark yourself as a conservative jackass. Do you like licking yankee boots?
Who the fuck are you, pendejo?
Lungas combia con teimpo. No te vives en la pasada. Si queires a vivir in en la pasada apredenate Azteca. No la lengua de noestros concadores.
What the fuck is a lunga? Teimpo? 🤦
Latine at least sounds better, but I hate how close to latrine it is. The point is that we can identify our roots in Latin America when speaking with others, and unfortunately for the people trying to corrupt our lengua, the vast majority of speakers seem ok with using the subtleties of context in a Spanish sentence to understand that everyone is being referred to when using either Latino or Latina.
If that makes you uncomfortable, play with duo lingo some more until you truly grok this language.
I’d like a queer latino’s take on this, I’m truly interested in their opinion. Even that sentence, the majority understand I’m asking for input from everyone, whether I’d written Latino or Latina.
Joe
hahah i don’t think you get who you are talking to
Quien entonces, el rey de españa?
sim, babacão, ele mesmo. me acorda quando tivermos uma grande quantidade de pessoas que falam línguas latinas apoiando uma mudança tão grande na nossa língua, e não apenas gringos (e seus puxa-sacos) enchendo o saco.
You know uhh, no comment on the shit flinging in the comments, but I’ve always liked latine over latinx, feels more natural to use a vowel there than like, an x. Shout out to latiny as being the highly underrated evolution, which unifies both the use of a vowel and something adjacent to the x, while also sounding really dumb and funny.
I dunno. Seems similar to the outcries and moral panic that people used to have against neopronouns, or pronouns in bio, to me, without realizing that they use neopronouns all the time whenever they call someone dude or bro. I feel like I’ve left this comment here before, but I do wonder whether or not neopronouns like dude or bro are more acceptable because they’re kind of a more natural integration into language than most of the academic postulations on “oh, what if we made a gender-neutral singular pronoun”, or if they’re more acceptable precisely because they’re kind of gendered. We’re all dudes, hey, but at the same time, it would be kind of stupid to say that dude doesn’t refer to or see use by mostly men, and is kind of gendered. I dunno, I’m sure “dude” and “bro” were pretty heavily hated when they were used, so maybe it’s just that whenever anything novel with language is done, it’s doomed to be shat on relentlessly by prescriptivist nonces.
I dunno maybe we all just need to speak like, ithkuli or something, so nobody ever talks to each other.
Oh god imagine putting the world through learning to be fluent in ithkuil XD
Maximum expressiveness, maximum migraines
I’d be thankful just to get a spelling reform but English has somehow descriptivized its way into having worse spelling than prescribed written languages.
Not a language I thought would be referenced in this topic but damn I’ll take it. Maximum migraines indeed.
Eh, personally I find the letters too similar to one another, it’s like anti-shavian, where that was designed for every glyph to be distinct and to be a single stroke, ithkuil is complex and has a lot of glyphs that are hard to distinguish at a glance.
My ideal would be for a writing system where words are built from Hangul-like syllable blocks, every consonant is a single stroke glyph without any closed loops, and every vowel has to have at least one closed loop. I’ve also gotten really interested in the look of vertical writing systems so dat too :p
I think it works really well for the goals of the language (complexity and conciseness) although I still prefer V3. A Hangul like syllable block system is cool and has it’s benefits but if you’re clever then an abuguida is better since it makes more recognisable words in languages like English that are less analytic. Hangul is sick as hell tho and maybe I should make a version for English.