When someone supports fascist regimes and spouts fascist talking points they are what they are, no matter what they like to call themselves. The Nazis called themselves socialist, too.
That’s not correct, though. MLs don’t support fascist regimes.
MLs have a long history with deep theoretical frameworks, which is why just calling them fascists and right-wingers gets you exactly nowhere with them, and ignores their genuine Proletarian perspective.
Even this post, for example, has people correctly pointing out how the USSR kept the Nazi scientists on a tight leash, then deported them after they had sufficient intelligence, while the western states kept the Nazis and allowed them into important offices.
If you want to genuinely combat MLs, then you have to appeal to them from a materialist perspective, and showcase sound theoretical basis to defeat Capitalism and Imperialism globally.
If you just dismiss MLs as right-wingers, you genuinely showcase a lack of understanding of leftist history in general, and don’t actually succeed in combating ML mindsets.
That’s not correct, though. MLs don’t support fascist regimes.
Well, some people who call themselves Marxist-Leninists do. Those are Tankies.
A rational ML person won’t support fascism, but there are a lot of so-called ML adherents who yearn so greatly for the trappings of the USSR to the extent that they don’t even care about its founding ideology; they care about putting a man into space, about strong nuclear arsenals, and about dismantling the corrupt West. Hence why so many Tankies fall in line behind the Putin regime for no reason other than that he is aesthetically “the glory days of Russia” and has made himself an enemy of the West, despite all of the fascism which fills the gaps.
I mostly agree, the issue is that the majority of what gets called support for Putin isn’t support for Putin, but alignment against NATO. There are legitimate supporters of Putin among some few MLs, but what I personally have noticed more is anti-NATO statements being called pro-Putin, because Putin standa against NATO.
The opposite is also common, going against Putin can often get conflated with being pro-NATO.
I get that. I suppose in this case I just don’t sympathize with the “enemy of my enemy” perspective because Putin and the neo-aristocratic oligarchs who surround him are still enemies of Marxist ideology.
If we just look at Lemmygrad’s Prolewiki, they outline their stance on the Russian Federation and the Russo-Ukranian War. You can examine that as much as you want, they acknowledge that Putin is a bourgeois dictator, but also go off of Lenin’s definition of Imperialism and find that the current RF doesn’t fit it, due to their production. That doesn’t mean they justify the RF’s invasion, they outright call it out, but also try to understand the reasons the invasion happened in the first place.
They outright state that they support revolution within Russia against the Capitalist dictatorship, and showcase how the people are unhappy with the current system.
I may not agree with their overall analysis, but this is absolutely not the viewpoint of a right winger, which means they can be swayed.
Wow, that was the longest and most pretentious “nuh-uh” I’ve ever seen. You realize that we are specifically talking about people who support fascists, right? If you think you can rationally talk someone out of any belief, let alone one as irrational as fascism, then I’d love to see you try. It’d be funny.
Sadly there is mountains of evidence that you can’t. Studies consistently show that trying to rationally argue someone out of a belief just makes them even more defensive of it.
Perhaps. However, giving up entirely and just calling MLs fascists is just going to get you called a lib. That’s why I pointed out that MLism has a strong theoretical basis, ie one doesn’t just happen into being an ML casually, they read theoretical texts and try to rationalize their beliefs.
If you can take advantage of what leads someone to believing something, you can show them alternatives.
For example, you can show them that currently, in America, Anarchists have more effective and tangible praxis than Marxist-Leninist parties have been, and according to ML belief, a mass movement is the only true way to upset the status quo, and as such they should consider supporting Anarchism. Baby steps, and all.
Heh. If you think I care what they call me you are sorely mistaken. If someone wants to ask real questions and learn something I’ll be happy to answer them. If they just want to spout fascist talking points and side with fascists I’m going to call them fascist. Because they are fascist. There is no point in engaging with them beyond that. You will accomplish nothing.
My goal is for leftist reorganization of society. As such, it’s important to align leftists together in a unified push against Capital. Incorrectly calling people who in their own views oppose all Imperialism and Capitalism fascists gets nothing done, when the basis of that belief is sound and just.
On a practical basis, calling MLs fascist right-wingers is worse than trying to honestly engage with them and redirect their methods, because the basis of anti-imperialism and anti-capitalism is still correct.
When someone supports fascist regimes and spouts fascist talking points they are what they are, no matter what they like to call themselves. The Nazis called themselves socialist, too.
That’s not correct, though. MLs don’t support fascist regimes.
MLs have a long history with deep theoretical frameworks, which is why just calling them fascists and right-wingers gets you exactly nowhere with them, and ignores their genuine Proletarian perspective.
Even this post, for example, has people correctly pointing out how the USSR kept the Nazi scientists on a tight leash, then deported them after they had sufficient intelligence, while the western states kept the Nazis and allowed them into important offices.
If you want to genuinely combat MLs, then you have to appeal to them from a materialist perspective, and showcase sound theoretical basis to defeat Capitalism and Imperialism globally.
If you just dismiss MLs as right-wingers, you genuinely showcase a lack of understanding of leftist history in general, and don’t actually succeed in combating ML mindsets.
Well, some people who call themselves Marxist-Leninists do. Those are Tankies.
A rational ML person won’t support fascism, but there are a lot of so-called ML adherents who yearn so greatly for the trappings of the USSR to the extent that they don’t even care about its founding ideology; they care about putting a man into space, about strong nuclear arsenals, and about dismantling the corrupt West. Hence why so many Tankies fall in line behind the Putin regime for no reason other than that he is aesthetically “the glory days of Russia” and has made himself an enemy of the West, despite all of the fascism which fills the gaps.
That kind of dogmatism is not Marxist. Even Marxists can display reactionary tendencies.
I mostly agree, the issue is that the majority of what gets called support for Putin isn’t support for Putin, but alignment against NATO. There are legitimate supporters of Putin among some few MLs, but what I personally have noticed more is anti-NATO statements being called pro-Putin, because Putin standa against NATO.
The opposite is also common, going against Putin can often get conflated with being pro-NATO.
I get that. I suppose in this case I just don’t sympathize with the “enemy of my enemy” perspective because Putin and the neo-aristocratic oligarchs who surround him are still enemies of Marxist ideology.
If we just look at Lemmygrad’s Prolewiki, they outline their stance on the Russian Federation and the Russo-Ukranian War. You can examine that as much as you want, they acknowledge that Putin is a bourgeois dictator, but also go off of Lenin’s definition of Imperialism and find that the current RF doesn’t fit it, due to their production. That doesn’t mean they justify the RF’s invasion, they outright call it out, but also try to understand the reasons the invasion happened in the first place.
They outright state that they support revolution within Russia against the Capitalist dictatorship, and showcase how the people are unhappy with the current system.
I may not agree with their overall analysis, but this is absolutely not the viewpoint of a right winger, which means they can be swayed.
Wow, that was the longest and most pretentious “nuh-uh” I’ve ever seen. You realize that we are specifically talking about people who support fascists, right? If you think you can rationally talk someone out of any belief, let alone one as irrational as fascism, then I’d love to see you try. It’d be funny.
I can do a better job than you.
Sadly there is mountains of evidence that you can’t. Studies consistently show that trying to rationally argue someone out of a belief just makes them even more defensive of it.
Edit: Fixed hilarious typo. Ever fence. Heh.
Perhaps. However, giving up entirely and just calling MLs fascists is just going to get you called a lib. That’s why I pointed out that MLism has a strong theoretical basis, ie one doesn’t just happen into being an ML casually, they read theoretical texts and try to rationalize their beliefs.
If you can take advantage of what leads someone to believing something, you can show them alternatives.
For example, you can show them that currently, in America, Anarchists have more effective and tangible praxis than Marxist-Leninist parties have been, and according to ML belief, a mass movement is the only true way to upset the status quo, and as such they should consider supporting Anarchism. Baby steps, and all.
Heh. If you think I care what they call me you are sorely mistaken. If someone wants to ask real questions and learn something I’ll be happy to answer them. If they just want to spout fascist talking points and side with fascists I’m going to call them fascist. Because they are fascist. There is no point in engaging with them beyond that. You will accomplish nothing.
My goal is for leftist reorganization of society. As such, it’s important to align leftists together in a unified push against Capital. Incorrectly calling people who in their own views oppose all Imperialism and Capitalism fascists gets nothing done, when the basis of that belief is sound and just.
On a practical basis, calling MLs fascist right-wingers is worse than trying to honestly engage with them and redirect their methods, because the basis of anti-imperialism and anti-capitalism is still correct.