Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote ‘uncommitted’ in Michigan’s primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union. “A second Trump term would be devastating. Not just on fundamental rights, not just on our democracy here at home, but also when it comes to foreign policy. This was a man who promoted a Muslim ban.”
Whitmer, who is a co-chair of Biden’s 2024 campaign, also said she wasn’t sure what to expect when it came to the protest vote.
Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat who is the only Palestinian-American serving in Congress, urged Democrats last week to vote “uncommitted” in Michigan’s 27 February primary.
Alternate title: Michigan governor explains first past the post voting. People unhappy.
This is a primary. Voting for Biden won’t make it less likely that Trump will be elected.
So they’re not even the official candidates yet? Just how long is your election cycle?
4 years.
Primaries are rigged there’s no real choice
That’s not really true. Primaries weren’t rigged in the Rupublican primaries in 2016. They voted Trump in despite what the RNC wanted. It was the Dem’s primary that was rigged (and turned a bunch of people off of voting in the main election, and it seems those people still haven’t learned anything).
How were the Dem primaries rigged. I still see lots of people claim this to this day. But no one has ever presented evidence. I voted for Sanders in 2016 and 2020 primaries. But legitimately more people voted for Clinton in 2016. She also won more delegates. She won fair and square. Now do I think there needs to be a better process? Absolutely. But in the system democrats have used for the last 30 to 40 years Sanders lost fairly despite a strong showing.
The superdelegates, which in 2016 made up about 15% of the delegates, were not elected and are not beholden to any voters, they just chose whichever candidate they wanted, and 604 out of 651 went for Clinton immediately, which meant Bernie started off at an immediate disadvantage.
There’s this idea that if it’s technically possible to succeed, that the system is not rigged (see racism, sexism, etc). But that’s ridiculous. If someone starts off at a major advantage over their competition, the system is rigged for them. If, in the general election, one candidate started off with 75 electoral votes because some unelected people just decided they liked that candidate, I imagine we would call that system rigged in favor of that candidate (even if it is technically possible for their opponent to win). Not only that, but starting off at such a deficit for what would already have been considered a close race is likely to make those who might have voted for Bernie just not bother showing up.
So yes, I’d say the primary was rigged against Bernie. And the Democrats seem to agree, because they got rid of superdelegates for the initial vote, because everyone was pissed.
The DNC used that system FOR DECADES. They didn’t implement it in 2015 to snub Sanders. And as shitty as it was. It was better than what they had before. This, this is why no one rightfully takes you seriously. Or shows any respect. Hyperbolic, disingenuous BS.
You’re apparently forgetting the head of the DNC that got fired for giving debate questions to Clinton.
You’re also apparently forgetting the DNC argument in court that because they are a private organization that they didn’t have to abide by their own rules requiring fairness.
None of those are even touching the super delegate issues that others commented on.
So, The DNC gave Clinton the questions. And then they fired the head as a patsy? Or the head gave Clinton the questions and the DNC who didn’t rig things fired her over it.
Depends what you mean by “rigged”.
The parties, the candidates, the PACs, and the media are all theoretically (and in many cases, legally bound to be) separate entities, acting independently. But in reality, a lot of them share the same interests, and so some things happen that aren’t exactly collusion or breaking any rules, but do give an advantage to one candidate, which many voters consider unfair.
In the case of the 2016 DNC primary, I think the critical objection is not the existence of superdelegates, but how they were presented in the media.
Clinton hovered between 54%-59% of the pledged delegates, but the media coverage would consistently include superdelegates in the count, showing Clinton ahead by 600 or so delegates, giving her “70% of the total count, and making her the presumptive nominee! The Sanders campaign doesn’t have any chance of coming back from this!” …before most of the country had even voted.
This kind of thing happens all the time, with lots of stuff, and it’s not technically “rigging”.
But seeing an official-looking number on TV – that you know, provably, doesn’t reflect the reality of the ongoing election… That feels, to many people, like it’s “rigged”.
I mean rigged when I say rigged. But yes I agree with a lot of your other points. The system absolutely should be more democratic and clearer. And our media should absolutely be constantly rebuked for the shit show it is.
I have no love for the system or democrats. But I really think all this talk about it being “rigged” nearly a decade on. Realistically is keeping us from improving the situation or finding better solutions. Instead grinding some perceived axe. While people, we all would likely be United against are United themselves getting things that we hate done. Clinton and Wasserman Schultz definitely earned plenty of that ire though.
Everyone says they didnt want him, but an idiot demagogue is a useful fool.
Altrrnate theory: They didnt know who would beat Hillary, so they played as many candidates as possible until they figured it out.
That’s some nice history rewriting but the RNC actually openly loathed Trump until he won the primary - that’s when they became bootlickers.
Ah yeah, politicians never lie
Yea, neither Biden nor Trump have the official party endorsement yet. Presidential elections in the US usually last between two and five years depending on how you define them.
The news starts talking about the next election the day after the election so our election cycle is permanent at this point.
General election is in November. Get comfortable, it’s gonna be a while.
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Neoliberals never let a silly thing like facts get in their way.
They’re just republicans who don’t want the cool kids to hate them.
The fucked up part is theyre the only other option this election, and they know it.
It’s not good enough for them that Biden is better than trump, they want 100% support for all the fucked up shit Biden is doing as well.
they want 100% support for all the fucked up shit Biden is doing as well
Who are you even talking about?
Israel’s Genocide that is only possible because of our unwavering political and military support, probably
And they yell at us for not putting up with their putrid shit. Whatever happened to “push Biden left”
You have? Like, it’s been a clear influence in the policies of his administration. I’m my opinion, it would be pretty short sighted to turn that influence into disdain.
Israel’s extermination of Gazans with our unwavering funding is not a “left” policy
And wouldn’t you know it, there’s a lot more to an administration than their stance on Israel. Stop trying to boil everything down to truisms and catchphrases. If you really don’t think that the left has had a sizeable impact on Biden’s admin, we don’t really have a lot to talk about here.
The left has had a sizeable impact on Biden’s domestic policies. Including the Inflation Reduction Act, American Rescue Plan, and the Bipartisan infrastructure Law.
The Biden administration has been funding and arming the Israeli genocide of Gaza
Both are true. And genocide is the worst thing a country can do. I learned that in 6th grade when we learned about the importance of ensuring “Never Again” re: the Holocaust
Biden supports genocide. Centrists happy.
It’s a fucking primary.
This is literally the only point in time we can try to drag Biden too the left, will we get him far enough that he stops being pro-genocide? Probably not, dude is all in on Israel and always has been.
But telling people they don’t even get to vote “not committed” in a fucking meaningless primary is something so undemocratic if you told me it would happen this primary I’d have bet millions on it being republicans.
But then again, I’d have bet billions on them being the ones to pull delegates for something the state party had zero control over.
Not holding Dems to standards may have already fucked the country for good.
It’s a fucking primary
I don’t know why people don’t get this.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
Now we’re supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
I don’t have enough clothespins for this bullshit.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
NH went progressive over party favorite moderate the last two primaries they had that counted…
So this party the DNC said their votes count for nothing, then Biden withdrew and threw money at a write in campaign so the headlines would be “Biden wins even as a write in!”
And not:
“DNC just made NH primary meaningless for something only NH republican officials could change!”
They know this is just a primary.
They’re just conservatives deep down and give zero fucks lying and destroying democracy if they win. And it’s not enough to win, they demand 100% loyalty.
Just like trumpers.
It’s why Dem standards can’t just be “better than a Republican”.
it’s why the democratic party is going to fracture.
Hopely only slightly after the republican party. But both are trying to be the last one standing, so to speak.
Now we’re supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
“Behave, or else you get the Orange Turd.” seems to be the message.
The problem is Progressives aren’t offering up any other option. Who am I supposed to vote FOR this time around? “No one” isn’t much of a rallying cry.
Why should they? the DNC will never allow a progressive to be the party candidate. which is why we didn’t have bernie in '16… like the VOTERS WANTED.
I would say 2020 was the real stinger… clyburn in south carolina playing king maker.
New Hampshire went for Sanders in 2020, and were punished by losing their primary representation in 2024. South Carolina proved pivotal to the Biden campaign, so they’re rewarded by going first.
Yuuuup. There were plenty of better states to choose if they just wanted a less-white state. Georgia is diverse and actually in play, but instead we kick off with a state that’s deep red with an ineffectual Democratic party because they voted the way the winners liked.
Because in 2020 the progressive candidate was the front runner. 4 years later they have no one else to offer up? No wants to vote for Biden. This is the progressive caucus’s moment, and they’re failing to respond to what the voters want.
If progressives had put someone up against an incumbent they would have been accused of wanting Trump to win.
Also, their candidate would be deemed unelectable and voting for them in the primary would be helping Trump to win.
Also, America is not a progressive country and even if they won the nomination they’d probably lose.
Why? Because America wants this shitshow. Why else would they keep choosing it? They don’t want problems solved, they want arguments and hot takes and “slams” and “bashes.”
There are great progressive candidates running. You just don’t see it because the DNC is hard at work behind the scenes canceling primaries, removing candidates from the ballot, instructing the corporate media to not report on it, and sending out people like Whitmer to manufacture consent for there being no actual primary debates or competition.
Biden’s ego demands a second term, there’s no voter choice involved here.
The progressive caucus fell apart the last couple years. Even Fetterman has started towing the line.
Then to be quite honest that’s something progressives need to focus on and work through if they want to be taken seriously going forward. Railing against Biden will only get them so far. At the end of the day, voters need something to be in favor of, to rally behind.
Agree completely, which is why I hope more progressives keep running for local offices
Progressivism is a marble on a hill. Either they roll to the right and join the liberals because they support and believe in an unjust hierarchical system as long as it’s sufficiently pinkwashed or roll hard left because they see the issue is the system itself
The hill ima die on: sortition
I cannot remember an election where the incumbent got primaried. And even if we tried we’d be accused of hurting the establishment candidate’s chances in the general.
The Dem olds in Congress were not happy to see AOC stomp on Crowley (10 term incumbent) back in '18 (I think).
You have to know that’s not comparable to a presidential election
And that’s why they pulled out all the stops to block Cisneros and support anti-choice NRA stooge Cuellar.
Eric Cantor but that’s not exactly a 1:1 comparison.
There’s nothing in this article that indicates she’s talking about the primary vs the general election
True. Which is just bad reporting
Who is on the ballot that drives him left exactly? What’s the name?
Is someone telling you you don’t “get” to vote how you want? Telling someone you disagree with their choice or that they’re dumb for voting a certain way is not at all stopping that person from voting how they want and not at all undemocratic
I’m not trying to defend the “pro genocide” thing at all, although I’m expecting to be down voted regardless, but…
Isn’t support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldn’t support Israel?
I guess they could be more overt in their condemnation of Israel’s behaviour, but I’m not sure how meaningful that is.
Isn’t support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Biden has spent 50 years calling himself a Zionist and saying nothing will ever make him stop supporting Israel.
It’s hard to think anyone believes that’s normal…
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldn’t support Israel?
Bernie and every other progressive.
I think part of the problem is that people are so on edge with how close we are to democracy ending. And how fine, and even eager many are to move on to full fascism. It is a primary though. And what really matters is a commitment to defeat fascism in November.
However you don’t do yourself any favors acting like a teenage edge lord. Saying hyperbolic bs like pro-genocide etc etc etc. Biden’s actions on the front are absolutely questionable. Poor strategy wise considering Bibi isn’t going to listen to anyone. And just going to do whatever he wants. So all Biden is likely going to get out of it is a tarnished image. Even if we cut Israel off completely, something Biden can’t do himself. It wouldn’t stop Bibi the butcher. But then it’s always easier to call hyperbolic names than it is to come up with actual working solutions.
you’re pro genocide
No u.
you clearly have a pro-trump agenda, as evidenced by your comment history…
you’re spam, and pro-genocideYou’ve completely lost the thread.
ok, tropical ding dong
Trump, the one who moved the US embassy would, if anything, support Israel even more aggressively than Biden.
It’s so infuriating how difficult it is for people to understand this
There are also a large amount of people who understand this and are intentionally acting as if they don’t. This is just this round’s version of the ‘walk away’ people from previous elections.
Walk away is such a shitty psyop. I feel bad for anyone stupid enough to fall for the obvious bullshit.
Some people love genocide so much they cannot imagine anyone opposing it without ulterior motives.
Some people love to argue in bad faith.
Is there a good faith argument that can be made in favor of supporting genocide?
No one is supporting genocide. Hence why Oderus implied you were arguing in bad faith. Quit now before you make an ass of yourself.
“Opposition to genocide isn’t real”, is pretty close to supporting it.
A young man just lit himself on fire to protest our complicity in the genocide, this isn’t a made up issue. The people up in arms in my social feeds aren’t faceless Russians, they the people who would work past campaigns and donate to Democrats.
Biden circumvented congress to sell weapons to Netanyahu for genocide. That’s support for genocide.
You can’t justify support for genocide, and I doubt you want Biden to stop doing so. So let’s see which Standard Centrist Dismissal you select instead.
Just like @dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com said, no one is arguing for genocide so you’re not arguing in good faith. Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same. Unreal how reductive some people are.
If it were possible, you would be ashamed of your comment but here you are.
Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same.
I didn’t say that either. Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Regardless of how much worse the alternative is.
The alternative appears to be that same genocide plus an authoritarian state run by a corrupt egoistist BTW. Voting for a party is and never has been a vote to support literally every policy they stand on.
I wasn’t advocating for not voting for Biden; I was advocating for Biden to cease his support for Netanyahu’s genocide.
When you make statements like
Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Regardless of how much worse the alternative is
You need to understand that the alternative is Trump. Stop creating bullshit noise and get on the same page as everyone else.
You need to understand that the alternative is Trump.
“But they’re worse” does not justify supporting genocide. Nothing justifies supporting genocide. Biden should stop.
The alternative is Biden not supporting genocide, and if it takes threats to not vote for him to do it, that’s well worth it. You act like everything is baked into stone and none of these current actions could have a material impact on the people that are right now dying.
Most would agree, but putting a worse person in power through apathy or inaction isn’t the solution.
I’m not advocating for voting for Trump or not voting.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide.
WOW THANKS FOR THE TIP
I’ll stop saying it if they ever stop doing it.
Shame Dems won’t take it
And what does that look like to you this election cycle?
Stop the bullshit double speak, half truth skirting around the conversation and say, flat out and in plain English, how do you propose we handle this situation as a voter? Give us an actual solution.
We should continue the protests until Biden stops supporting genocide.
We should vote for Biden and not Trump. Democrats should not support genocide. The two aren’t contradictory.
Stop the bullshit double speak
“Democrats should not support genocide” is a simple, direct statement.
Your point is received. It’s a shitty point, but please, you keep trying to elaborate but you just keep repeating the same useless point.
There isn’t one, unless we can somehow replace key centre-right policymakers inside the Democrat party and drag the party to a more firmly progressive platform
Yep, so vote Bernie in the primaries, then when he loses the primary and the election is Biden vs Trump vote Biden.
It sucks that our election system has been warped into a two party shitshow, but here we are.
Our ecosystem will not survive a Trump term. That means our food supply will not survive a Trump term. We do not want a neverending dust bowl.
Additionally of you really think Trump will do anything for peace you haven’t been listening to his words or looked at his actions.
I said Democrats should not support genocide. I did not say people should not vote for Biden. I did not say people should vote for Trump.
I said that Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Biden should stop and you should too.
Why I started with, “Yep”. Another word for yes.
Then don’t accuse me of being a trumpist because I don’t think that Democrats should be supporting genocide.
You think Trump, the guy who makes transparent threats of violence every other sentence, would stop Israel from levelling Gaza?
I think Democrats should stop supporting genocide. They should vote for Biden and not Trump.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, and pro-genocide centrists should stop assuming that opposition to genocide is support for Trump. Or at least scroll down and see if others haven’t spammed identical genocide apologia.
He’s good friends with and likely has donations from Netanyahu. And all Trump and the GOP have to do (as usual) is sit back and watch the left fight and destroy itself while the gop sit back and win.
Democrats are so damn stupid. Not a single one of your candidates and potential presidents is against Israel, none, so why make it an issue for this election?
Because I’m guessing the hope is that Biden will see the threats to not vote and change his tact in order to keep his job.
Talk about blowing off your own foot cause your toe hurts.
Russian propaganda.
Idiot
? The reason it’s being pushed is Russian propaganda.
Primaries are the place for protest votes. You want to send a message, send it now in the primary.
Come general election, it’s time to shut up and protect the country.
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
I don’t like our current system but I don’t believe she is wrong. We have a two party system. Either the GOP or the DNC candidate will take the electoral college.
I hate that we are still voting against something. The Democrats need to run a candidate that we WANT to vote for (like Obama was imo) but we aren’t there in this election so we can either protest and vote 3rd party, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden.
Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
It’s a primary…
What they’re hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions don’t follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesn’t depress turnout and let’s trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden “most progressive president yet” will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters aren’t Republican voters. Fear isn’t enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because they’re statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize it’s not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. They’re funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
It effectively proves to Democrats that if they support Genocide like Republicans they will never win.
If Democrats want to bend over backwards to appeal to a small minority of AIPAC voters, they will lose all their other voters.
Oh, it has nothing to do with AIPAC VOTERS. It’s ALL about AIPAC DONORS.
Big difference…
It’s both. Dems want to appeal to voters that are brainwashed by AIPAC.
There is also a Zionist minority in America that will only vote for a Zionist president and Dems are so afraid to lose them that they will throw away every single moral value they have to appeal to them.
But if the Dems aren’t shown that they will lose more voters by kneeling for AIPAC than they will gain, the Dems will not be incentivized to clean up their act. In fact Dems will only become more extreme in their Zionism because they know that people will keep voting for AIPAC anyways.
Biden still has a shot to win voters back by actually managing to get recognition for a Palestinian state implemented. But he’s just dancing around that subject as long as possible and it doesn’t look like he’s serious in any way.
There are more AIPAC dollars than there are AIPAC voters, but then I guess that’s always the inherent problem with our political system:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
The top three israeli money recipients being Democrats, and the top being Biden, is not a great argument to vote Democrat though.
If Biden tanks Israel where do you think that money is going to go?
Biden is the most willing to sell out to israel. Which is why Biden is getting that money. I must say that the Dems are very cheap too, they sell their souls for a few million dollars.
“If I don’t do it somebody else will” is the default excuse for any crime. This excuse only works if enough people keep believing in it.
“Let’s (literally) destroy democracy so we might be able to save the Democratic Party”.
Did you miss all the great speeches at CPAC?
Do you not understand what “primary” means?
A meaningless formality since 2012.
“Let’s literally commit Genocide so Biden doesn’t have to run another 4 years”.
Trumps rise to power is a direct consequence of the DNC sabotaging every attempt of real progressives like Bernie that could have actually fixed issues.
It creates both voter apathy and it enables right-wingers to point to the deteriorated standards of living under Biden and blame Biden for it (and biden pulls out another 15 Billion for israel) (cue someone linking me how people working 3 jobs is good for unemployment)
If Biden wins now the unrest and support for right-wing authoritarianism will only grow.
If Trump loses the election, that will not remove the threats and social changes that trigger the “action side” of authoritarianism.
The authoritarians will still be there. They will still look for candidates who will give them the strong, punitive leadership they desire.
If bad Dems keep winning the right will only grow stronger.
If Biden wins this time #Hitler2028 is a plausible reality as Biden is doing nothing to address any real problems and only gradually making things worse. Further bolstering Republicans.
The only way I see Biden winning this election is a) Trump has a stroke B) they throw Trump in jail
The polls are clear, people are growing increasingly tired of Biden. Trump was one of the most unpopular presidents in history - and Biden is even more unpopular.
We’re fucked either way, like you said. Biden wins and the unrest is delayed and will blow up even stronger later on. Put Trump in jail and that unrest will be amplified tenfold. Look what happened when Hitler got out of jail (or Lula in Brazil for a more recent example) If Bifen loses, we of course have our proto-fascist.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP, even when the big donors are directly against him and his perseverance and dedication to do literally anything in his power to win.
I don’t know how he still has such a fire inside him at his age.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP
He only beat Haley 60-40 in SC. Media talks about his big primary wins, but they’re not really showing a politician that has really consolidated his party, especially as a virtual incumbent. He’s probably the only Republican Biden could beat, and Biden is conversely the only Democrat Trump could beat. Yet on we march to a repeat general election between two candidates most people don’t like.
to be fair, that’s probably one of the worst performing states for him because it’s Haley’s home state
Look at what happened at the primary in Nevada. He was removed from the ballot so he told his supporters to not go out and vote. What happened? Over 60% voted “none of these candidates”
Nikki Haley lost to “none of these candidates”
if you look at the polls for the republican primary: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-r/2024/national/
trump is >75%
that’s domination, especially considering a) desantis got more funding AND was polling better at the start of the campaign season and b) nikki haley picked up that funding after desantis dropped out
the establishment republicans are desperate to get rid of trump but he’s like a tick that won’t go away
He wasn’t removed from the ballot, he chose to remove himself because the party rules said candidates had to do that to compete in the caucus that would actually choose electors. “None of the above” were just Trump votes, which falls in line with a candidate who should be doing better for his name recognition and history.
He can be solidly above 50%, assuring a primary win, and still not be demonstrating that he’s consolidated his party. He won his 2020 primaries with 94% of the vote.
And as we’ve seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn’t even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That’s exactly the “strong man” bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden’s handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that’s just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One’s a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, that’s something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since it’s something previous administrations wouldn’t have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didn’t care or didn’t listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldn’t vote for trump either… but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that’s still better odds
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that’s still better odds
Then you simply didn’t pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldn’t have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i don’t know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy’s a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he’s totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
i’m not defending trump i’m just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. it’s unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they can’t just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it’s getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that’s a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
i don’t know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy’s a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he’s totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn’t support Ukraine. It’s really no secret that he’s in Russia’s pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something he’s very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, I’m absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while it’s still raging.
they can’t just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it’s getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that’s a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
Then these people are fucking stupid and don’t realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
I mean she’s right. If you register a protest vote against Biden you need to accept the moral liability of helping Trump. There really isn’t any additional conversation here. You can write a million words about how you are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and none of it will change the very simple cause and effect of a protest vote.
I will vote for Biden in the General Election, but I will not stop speaking out about the Genocide in Palestine. We can put a stop to this, now. We don’t have to wait for the election, we don’t want to let Netanyahu handle this situation in the slightest.
You have to put pressure on Biden because it could make a difference. There would be no convincing Trump. Israel has utterly failed this challenge. Netanyahu has proven himself beyond any reasonable doubt to be a criminal.
and biden is best friends with netanyahu. if we cant convince biden before an election, then we will not be able to convince him after one. we need to ask him to resign and realistically threaten that they WILL lost this election. nothing else will light a fire under their ass like that. nothing.
This might be a viable solution if there were a dem candidate coming up the pike that had a chance against Trump.
But there isnt. Your election choices are Trump and not Trump. Regardless of what you think of the “not Trump” option, Trump would be exponentially worse. Voting 3rd party or not voting at all is the equivalent of a vote for Trump.
no its not and you know it. american election cycles are really good anxiety producers. we have two options, one will make everything worse, one will make it so the bad guys cant win. but the democrats don’t want change. they want to appease their donors, one of the biggest being AIPAC. don’t act like democrats are gonna save the day. I’d say they just drop the ball but its not as if they really wanted to get in the hoop. They throw the game and then blame us for not voting hard enough and being too apathetic
That’s the joy of continuing with democracy in the US. Biden and ‘the Left’ won’t attempt to curtail your speech or throw you in jail. The other guys… not so much.
biden is a zionist. he is definitely not part of the ‘the Left’. at no point in his career has he been a leftist. he is a centrist zionist.
And this is the only correct solution.
You see so many people in this thread essentially equating Trump and Biden because of Gaza, and they keep skirting around “you shouldn’t vote Biden because both sides are the same tee-hee.”
LOL
Real talk now. You will stop speaking about the so called so called “Genocide in Gaza” as soon as you’re distracted by memes making you upset about something else.
Yahya Sinwar will be dead soon enough, and there will be a ceasefire in exchange for the remaining hostages. In a few months there won’t be any more civilian casualties in your social media feeds and the memes will tell you that Dark Brandon made Israel accept the ceasefire. You will love the Dark Brandon because of the memes. A few weeks after that the memes and Tik Toks will be making you upset over Trump and you will have forgotten all about the Palestinians. Just like how you never cared about the Ethiopian civil war or any other conflict in the world unless the memes tell you you’re supposed to.
Netanyahu empowered this militant group to begin with, secured their funding for them. They’re targeting hospitals, border crossings, and refugee camps. It’s pretty clear that Israel’s goals aren’t to defeat Hamas, but to kill as many Palestinians as possible before the time runs out.
And Israels plan is to remove Palestines border with Egypt, so that it will now be completely encircled by Israel.
You think Israel are trying to kill as many palestinians as possible? They’re not doing a great job in that case.
The rate at which the Palestinians are dying is far above most historic wars. For example, WW2 had about 85,000,000 deaths in 2176 days and the total population of the world was about 2.5 Billion so 0.000015625% dead per day compared to the situation in Gaza where 30,000 dead out of 2 Million total in Gaza over 143 days is 0.015% dead per day. You could argue by including Israeli casualties and total population should be included for fair comparison, but it’s still not even close.
Unhelpful to compare a 5 month conflict in a tiny country to a globe spanning war that lasted years though right? And whats the point in comparing the percentage of the global population that died in one war vs the percentage of people that died in gaza, does that tell us anything useful?
A more helpful comparison might be the battle of leningrad: 1 500 000 soviet civillians died in 872 days, which works out at 1720 per day. Add on another 3.5 million military deaths and you’re looking at 5733 every single day.
They’re doing a great job.
The most effective way to depopulate an area is what the Nazis finally ended up doing, and has been done by every genocidal group since.
You starve the population.
It takes a month or two for food stores to run out, then it takes about a month for the starvation to start killing people. During those first two months the numbers don’t go up a large amount. Afterwards they go up FAST.
It also kills off the children first, so even if not fully successful, you’ve made the population older, and weaker, and less able to resist or fight back the next time.
This is what Israel is doing.
A 3 month old Palestinian boy died yesterday from starvation. He wasn’t even alive in Oct.
I hope you never have to eat grass to try to stave off the insanity inducing hunger you seem okay with Israel inducing.
Ah yes just naturally jump into assuming I’m ok with forced starvation. Touch grass.
You think Israel are trying to kill as many palestinians as possible? They’re not doing a great job in that case.
You certainly seem like you’re trying to whitewash the forced starvation because the numbers didn’t increase that much during the initial 2 month period it takes for starvation to start once the Israelis started the starvation campaign.
Voting uncommitted is a fine thing to do during the primary. It shows the party that people are displeased with how the government is handling the Gaza situation.
Sitting out an election in Michigan is a bad idea. If you’re in a safe state, go wild. Just not Michigan.
Objectively correct take.
You can validly hate Biden for the handling of Gaza. But not voting for him is just helping the Fascists win.
Swallow your pride. Do your duty at the ballot and then make the real changes by organising and protests.
No. It’s not on the voters to show up no matter what. It’s on the politicians to be someone we want to vote for. We already did “vote blue no matter who and pressure them for change later.” And now we’re funding a genocide. That’s over. Now it’s pressure time.
Absolutely correct. “Vote blue no matter who” got us here. The idea failed.
More objectively correct take:
Thanks to the political-parties highjacking governing-the-country,
they can commit any crime or abomination, whatsoever, and you only can choose between them, because the rigged-system won’t permit anyone to have any alternative to what the incumbent political-parties offer.
There: fixed it for you.
You know 3rd parties run all the time right? We even have multiple senators right now that are independents
Okay, so then, do your duty, vote for biden, then work to support ranked choice voting?
Why do you think the neoliberals running the DNC will let ranked choice happen?
FPTP is the only reason neoliberals and Republicans can get elected, while they control both parties, we’ll never get rid of it.
To get ranked choice, progressives first have to replace neoliberals, and then win so many elections it doesn’t matter what Republicans want.
RCC isn’t the cure, it’s what we do after we win. Because it’s not going to happen until after we win.
For anyone confused or refuting this in their mind, look up the DNC’s history on ranked choice and the efforts they’ve used to stop it. The only effective legislation passed in a few states was done by citizens with outside state help.
Any reason it can’t be done by referendums brought forward by the voters. Just need so rich Hollywood types to put up money and support.
It’s complicated and I could go into details about every nuanced situation for a few hours. A few highlights,
There are 24 states that do not provide for statewide citizen-initiated ballot measures (link)
Alaska for some reason is my favorite example
Ballot Measure 2 supporters spent nearly $7 million and campaigned for a year and a half ahead of the election (outside state support). Brett Huber, campaign manager of the leading vote-no group, said his team “had a short amount of time and a lot less money, and we tried our best” (opponents to RCV). Ballot Measure 2 has received the support of 50.55% of Alaska’s voters (link)
So its slightly possible, with millions of dollars from outside state support, years to campaign, and catching the main political parties unaware of your movements.
Zionism can be equated to fascism. Biden has stated multiple times that he is a Zionist. Neo-liberal fascists are already in power and they are destroying the left. you are saying do your duty at the ballot by saying vote this way or you are wasting a vote (that doesn’t actually count anyway because the pop vote doesn’t decide the presidency). I will do my duty by not partaking in sham elections for a two party state that I don’t have any faith in whatsoever to deliver anything they promise. Because they have no obligation to fulfill anything they say they will do to get into office. That in itself is protest so I am doing the real changes, as you say.
They aren’t destroying the left, there just has never been a meaningful left in America.
Sure that’s why FDR never won in an absolute landslide.
It’s why none of the last successful Democrat presidency runs over the last 2+ decades have been based on progressive reform and no Democrat would run with a slogan like “Change we can believe in” with only one outlier being the most recent election based on a distinct aversion to fascism.
America has never created national parks, new deals for farmers, or held up a man who was against war during the Cold war.
Nah. Left just doesn’t exist.
national parks that still rob native peoples of their land? is that progressive to you? new deals for farmers, on stolen land? don’t act like america is anything to be proud of, even the leftest leaning presidents still upheld the empire.
Better than drilling on it. You can’t go back and undo history. It’s happened. It’s a shit take to just show it was someone else’s land. It always is. We are all living in someone else’s house and something else’s environment, so I’m and so forth.
Yes we can be better in the future and should aim for that but just screaming that it’s all crap is really derivative of every history of everything.
Its a shit response to say that everybody has had land stolen. Especially when those peoples are still alive. So if we are to be better, then we need to acknowledge that there is still justice undone. And again these native peoples are still here, they aren’t gone. Native Hawaiians are actively being poisoned due to the US military’s ignorance and neglect of their own infrastructure. Democrats aren’t talking about that are they? Hawaii was illegally annexed but I’m sure Democrats vacation there just as much as Republicans. They are still fighting for rights to their land and anyone in Congress or the White House would say they can go fuck themselves.
Yes I’m actually fully in agreement that native Hawaiians are being pushed into extinction but that’s part of the now that needs to be fixed. Actions have to be taken for the current issues and there may and very usually is history to navigate within because it does matter but you can’t just ask for history to change we need to figure out solutions for now.
And yeah rich people of all parties aren’t going to be particularly interested and it’s obvious our government doesn’t work right. Your original point that national parks aren’t progressive is bad because even though stolen they are protected wild lands for hundreds of years. The new deal was a huge help to failing farms that are literally needed to feed people. We are facing inequality of massive magnitudes and climate change that is going to cause farming issues of the future, and climate refugees and economic refugees. We have to work with that now, looking at what the future we see from our choices with enough remembrance of the past but not clinging to it.
Unless you just want to be angry.
Edit: also my point is that eventually no matter what someone else will take your land whether they are your progeny or your replacement. It’s never your land or your stuff. It’s just temporary.
As if this isn’t happening across the globe. American politics is not the only domain infested with the neolibs
You’ll just be forfeiting your vote. The same reasoning can be heard in any country come election time, but in truth you’re only making a gesture and its effects are contained in your mind. If you don’t vote, even though all you said is true, this election system is a sham, etc. you’re still helping Trump in the short term and the harm he will do to women, foreigners, anybody who’s not rich, and the american society at large. Gestures, symbols and statements are good, but not at this price. I live across the world but if I could vote in the american elections, I would, and I’m not even part of any of these endangered demographics. I suppose you aren’t either ?
I am an intersection of multiple demographics you mentioned and if you were any of them, you would know that biden and the democratic party has not done anything meaningful for any of them. Roe could’ve been codified, but he didn’t. biden could’ve expand the court and add new justices, but he didn’t. biden could’ve already secured a cease fire, but he hasn’t. biden spat on the rail workers asking for one week sick pay. said nope, fuck you. he also has done practically nothing about amazons union busting. biden didn’t give a shit about east palestine. flint michigan still doesn’t have clean water. he could be creating legislation to protect trans kids and adults, but doesn’t care. so what exactly is your argument about the oppressed demographics having better lives under democrats?
And furthermore, it is not just a gesture. Or at least its as much of a gesture as voting. Its effects are demonstrably not just “contained in my mind” because it is having an obvious effect on you and judging by the 16 upvotes on the comment, perhaps I have inspired or emboldened people to be just as critical as I am being. But you will say we are stupid or foolish or whatever you need to say. I say the fool is the one that continues to perform the same behaviour with no results and then tries to convince people to not do anything different. Look how worried they are of losing their power that they have to tell people that if you don’t vote for us, its back to the trump. what a lovely threat from the people that supposedly care about us more than trump. i know they don’t, i know trump doesn’t care. they don’t answer to us and you know it.
Maybe vote uncommitted in primary for pressure since that has literally no effect on the main election?
As an outsider looking in, it feels really odd that this could even be a firm issue for any voter. Like that high horse sailed so long ago, how can you possibly blame the current president for what has been a national policy for 75 years?
Sure, push for a candidate that doesn’t support Israel and dissent as much as you can. But every time I read a comment about “Genocide Joe” it screams Russian propaganda farm.
Now, if the Democrats had picked someone who actually supported popular Democratic positions, there wouldn’t now be a massive chasm between him and their base on various burning issues they now have to bridge during what may, ironically, in fact be one of the more important elections of our lifetimes.
Democrats don’t pick their candidates, the wealthy donors and senior members do. Which is why we always end up with a centrist and empty promises. Money in politics is a cancer.
Those are who the Democratic Party represents. They are the party. If you want to pay membership dues and show up to local meetings, that’s fun and all, but the donors and senior members make all the important decisions above the local level, and local power brokers generally have party locals all sewn up, too.
Just ignoring that small donors exist and add up…
The DNC doesn’t like them tho. Large entities giving huge amounts of money involves, dinners, fancy fundraisers, trips, and all types of situations the money spreads around where it shouldn’t.
Small donors just want common sense politicians who are actually going to try and help Americans. Large donors want corporations to pay less taxes if were lucky. AIPAC wants billions a year and unquestioed support.
So large so ors and small donors want opposite things, and since large donors are more likely to personally enrich the people running the party, the people running the party decided that’s who they go with.
Even if it means Dems are less likely to win elections.
Right, exactly. Sure, the Dems have a bunch of formal structure, and yes, you can participate in it, and if you persuade the decision makers inside the party (who are industry tools more often than not), then yes, you can have an influence. But if you want to challenge them on something genuinely democratic, like calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, which 76% of the Democratic base is in support of, then all of a sudden the elitist liberalism comes out and we all have to get in line behind our august statespeople, who know infinitely better than us measly citizens…
It’s what Bernie has been saying for decades.
The first step is replacing neoliberals with progressives. We can’t fix anything while they’re in power, because they’re the problem
Which is why the DNC fights harder against progressives than republicans. Losing to republicans just isn’t a big deal to them, they know in 4-8 years they’ll be in power again, and they’ll be a shit ton of donations to Dems because of it.
If they lose to progressives…
That could be the end of the gravy train forever.
The more people understand that, the sooner it happens.
That’s why the neoliberals demand absolutely loyalty to Biden.
The DNC has the state infrastructure and most federal and state-level campaigns tied so deeply into their infrastructure there’s no real hope of replacing them.
Local politics are a tiny bit more open-ended, but again, the stakes are lower and local governments are explicity subordinate to states. Cities and counties can’t do much if the state doesn’t like it.
I have no idea how you fix this situation up, but as I see it, whatever the solution is has to look like making the DNC and its infrastructure obsolete. I don’t see this happening inside the Democratic Party.
The DNC has the state infrastructure
…
The DNC is not the state parties…
The state parties exist independent of the DNC, but due to how funding is supposed to trickle down, the state parties do kind of have to listen to them.
And while the state parties are in charge of their primary votes, the DNC can choose to ignore them.
Which is what happened when NH Dems refused to break NH state law so that Biden wouldn’t have to lose the first primary after NH picked progressive over party favorite in 2016 and 2020.
It’s confusing, but please try to learn more about our poltical system.
I’m noticing lots of Bidens supporters are incredibly opinionated, they just don’t know what they’re talking about about. When they do, they finally start understanding how fucked up we are and that if we dont act soon it’s too late.
It’s hard enough when one party is antidemocratic, if both are…
It costs more money to get ten million $1 donations than it does to get one $10,000,000 donation. You have to advertise, put up a website, collect donations, and possibly pay service fees for the charges. One giant novelty check from a billionaire means more of that money goes into their coffers.
It’s the same reason websites have advertising rather than memberships: Ad dollars are cheaper to get.
It costs more money to get the $10M donation, but it’s paid for by taxpayers rather than the candidate.
Lol
You think thos 20k a plate fundraisers cost zero?
The difference is the in person schmoozing with all those donors. The people running the party want to be paid to attend shit like that and having wealthy people suck up to them
I think getting $19,000 out of $20,000 is better than getting $0.90 out of a $1 donation, yes. It’s called cost-of-revenue.
But you’re right about the schmoozing. The donors love that shit. But there’s also massive armies of political operatives whose livelihood depends on getting paid a ton of money to repeat facts back at the candidates.
Advertisers, analysts, pundits, news orgs, and a ton of other people rely on elections being both as expensive and as frustrating as possible. That way they get a ton of money, and sell a ton of eyeballs.
Sure, if you’re making up random numbers anything can be justified…
But talking to someone who does that isnt something a lot of people are going to want to do bud.
No, we always end up with a centrist because a vast majority of voters are nowhere near as left-wing as the people who flock to Reddit and Lemmy. The American public is electing who they support and believe in, and it sounds to Lemmy leftists like the rest of America is robbing something from them because they never meaningfully interact with people on other parts of the ideological spectrum. Whether you realize it or not, a sizeable majority of American voters do not think or vote like you do.
Which is why I’ve given up on actually being happy with my government: I’m a weirdo and most Americans actually like this shit.
A majority of Americans have been unhappy with their government almost every single year since Nixon was President. So no, most Americans don’t actually like this shit. It’s just that given the problems we’re currently facing and the fact that most Americans don’t like this shit, a huge majority of them either blithely disagree with people who think like you, or actively and violently oppose people who think like you. A majority of America simply has different priorities, even if they ostensibly like progressive ideas, and that’s the reality we’re stuck with until public opinion shifts in a different direction or on-the-ground conditions change.
And I’m not gonna live long enough to see that.
A lot of black people died before the Civil Rights Movement. A lot of LGBTQ+ people died before gay marriage was legalized. A lot of women died before their full integration into the workforce. A lot of political outsiders died before the first nationally-binding primary system was implemented in 1972. All of those people died either hopeful that change would come or resigned to the fact that it never would, yet here we are.
Public opinion can and does change. It takes time, and progress is intermixed with periods of backsliding, but change is certainly possible. I think the American experiment will eventually collapse by popular vote, but I hope I can see a few cultural, economic, environmental, and philosophical victories notched between now and then, just as I’ve witnessed a few big ones since I was born.
Cool take, see you after the flopped election when you’re back here screaming that leftists single handedly tanked the election for Biden. 🤷
People really will argue there are no left leaning voters and also leftists are why Democrats can’t win elections because the non existent voters don’t vote.
Shocking that aiming at the apathetic middle fence sitters doesn’t seem to work when clearly that the argument is that it does. In which case it doesn’t matter that Biden isn’t liked by leftists cause he will win in a landslide for getting all those centrists and centrist conservatives right?
I’m with you dude. I don’t get how there can be this argument that Democrats don’t need leftists and shouldn’t try to even bother getting their votes but also are being ruined by greedy lefties not voting. It’s a fucking paradox which means they need to actually give a shit and aim for the left.
I will eat this thread printed out on a sheet of paper after elections in November if Biden loses
Not my take, I brought sources. Feel free to read them if you want to get outside of your bubble for a bit.
And their democracy is at stake. Just shut up and vote D like a good peon and leave them to make their billions.
Support for Palestinians is not even close to being a majority opinion among Demcratic voters. Most Dems that are gen X and boomers tend to (broadly) support Israel, while support for Palestinians is strongest amongst zoomers and younger millennials.
Do you understand that, in regards to a general election, this is a problem?
There’s not any position that he could take that doesn’t have huge potential drawbacks for his core voters, while Trump’s supporters overwhelmingly support Israel’s war against Palestinians.
He could simply not unilaterally and proactively send them more weapons. He could not veto UN resolutions. While I think we should be taking a moral stance on genocide, I’ll take simply not being actively complicit.
…Which costs him independents and Republican-leaning voters, and hence the election.
Whether I like the system we have right now or not, politics is strategic. Right now, it’s not good strategy. If he was just starting his 2nd term, then he could–and should–absolutely to just that. But right now he doesn’t have sufficient political capital to cut off funding to Israel and win an election.
Independents also oppose Israel’s actions. You didn’t even need to open the links, I highlighted that for you. Holy fuck skittish liberals, stop fucking abandoning everything for imagined Republican crossovers.
Gonna cut her some slack since the last time trump was president his sycophants almost kidnapped and executed her.
