There are 2 genocides actively occurring (or at least in the forefront).
Western media does not shy away from calling one a genocide (as they should), but refuses to call the other one a genocide.
There are a lot more than two, tbh.
Yes, hence the caveat of being in the forefront.
Western media does not shy away from calling one a genocide (as they should), but refuses to call the other one a genocide.
“Refuses” is a strong word. Genocide as an accusation against Israel has been prominent in news headlines as of late.
Myanmar
It’s all about worthy and unworthy victims again. Worthy victims, the Uyghur because China bad and unworthy victims, the Palestinians because Israel good. One is seen as a threat, the other one as an ally so they get different media treatment. But in the end, people are getting exterminated systematically.
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At least 5. Arguably the Israel-Gaza situation, Russia- Ukraine, Sudan(also with Russian involvement), China’s treatment of the Uyghurs, and Myanmar’s treatment of the Rohingya.
Obviously, those screeching loudest about genocide X, are inevitably entirely quiet about genocide Y, while accusing country Z of hypocrisy. I haven’t named any sides, but if anyone reads this comment and thinks I’m talking about them, perhaps it’s time for some introspection.
Not that whataboutism is particularly relevant for those suffering. But hey, why would anyone let human suffering and nuance get in the way of some political point scoring, real politik or a nice online shouting match.
Meanwhile we walk ever closer towards the precipice of the climate apocalypse. If it’s isn’t already too late.
I would argue the Israeli/Palestine one.
Hamas wants to genocide Israel (literally in their founding document) but failing miserably. Absolutely guilty of a war crime or two.
Israel is very likely guilty of a number of war crimes due to proportionality, failure to minimize civilian casualties, and reasonable cause for infrastructure damage and blockades. The fact they have only killed off something like 3% of the population with this much damage and overwhelming force means they aren’t committing genocide, or they are doing a pretty poor job of it. Individuals and small groups are likely killing off civilians and should be held to account (public hanging is a good way to do it) but question the broader Israeli goal.
Hamas absolutely guilty of war crime (clear cut), could add genocide if they were winning, Israel unsure as much less clear cut. Could they be - absolutely.
God damn it, why are there people that think that genocide is competition in effectiveness on every damn side?
Primary genocide requirement is intent. And out of five definitions, only one involves outright killing.
Read the convention before arguing about genocide. (1) (2)
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
Absolutely. I went through a couple of revisions before settling on 2 based on being current and in the forefront.
Don’t forget about the US. We’ve been genociding Hispanic migrants for a while now.
Why the heck are you getting downvoted? You’re absolutely right, it didn’t stop when we found out about it or when biden became president
I guess people don’t know that the UNs definition of genocide includes more than just killing a bunch of people.
It looks like the closest thing the US is genociding is temporarily separating children from parents to ensure they’re actually parents and not traffickers and to confirm their history.
Here’s more for those wondering. It doesn’t meet genocide definitions. It received major lashback when they did. A federal judge halted it.
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/08/1218336878/immigration-family-separation-judge-settlement-border
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2dQ4-VNaG3s&pp=ygURY2hhbm5lbCA1IG1pZ3JhbnQ%3D
It does meet the UNs definition of genocide.
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
- Killing members of the group;
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
They’re guilty of number 4 as well, there’s been multiple reports of immigrant women being sterilized against their will
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/22/ice-gynecologist-hysterectomies-georgia
They’re not transferring kids to indoctrinate them though. It’s bullshit they’re doing it but it’s not genocide.
The definition says nothing about indoctrination.
That’s the only way to remove their culture though… unless you kill them. Separation is not genocide, and is why no legit sources have called the USA out on it
What’s changed between when genocide was uncovered and now? What makes biden’s policy less genocidal than trump’s? Or have you always been a genocide denier, even when the concentration camps and their conditions first saw a bunch of coverage?
EndlessApollo
What’s changed between when genocide was uncovered and now? What makes biden’s policy less genocidal than trump’s? Or have you always been a genocide denier, even when the concentration camps and their conditions first saw a bunch of coverage?
I just root my understanding in reality and verifiable sauce. Like I did while nobody else followed suit.
Yuck. Have fun voting for trump ig if you hate hispanic immigrants that much
It’s a unique tragedy of the human animal that how we label an atrocity is central to the question of what to do about it.
An alien might very well assume that humans worship words because some of them are symbols of real power to eclipse any icon, fetish, or talisman.
Has any holy book ever inspired the devotion that the dictionary enjoys? What is a Supreme Court judge other than a robed literary priest endowed with the power to declare what words mean?
What is a Supreme Court judge other than a robed literary priest endowed with the power to declare what words mean?
Black’s Law Dictionary even looks like a bible!
Why are tankies so fucking stupid?
You can be a Marxist-Leninist and not support the cultural genocide of the Uyghurs.
Yep. A Tankie is someone who claims to be leftist but then defends all actions by governments and countries who claim to be leftist too.
then defends all actions by governments and countries who claim to be leftist too
Tankies don’t even need that. They just need the country to not be part of NATO and its allies. See their support for Russia, despite Russia being straight-up right-wing authoritarian with no pretence to leftism.
Especially since Russia is hyper capitalist. Their oligarchs put US CEOs to shame.
All governments should be criticized, even AES countries. The slur “tankie” is unhelpful and doesn’t help to educate or bring others to your side. Marxism, Leninism, Maoism and even Anarchism should be criticized and questioned, like any other ideology.
Tankie is not “when questions America”
I’d hardly call it a slur. And that’s exactly the problem with tankies and conservatives alike. They refuse to criticize their favorite government.
Any word can be a slur, it depends on the context of how it’s used. Get it “rocket scientist?” Unless you were alive for the Soviet occupation of Hungary in 1956, it’s a slur.
You can criticize the authoritarian nature of the ideology, or the rabid dogmatism. Using “tankie” is the easy way to dismiss an opinion without offering a countering opinion.
“slur” LMFAO
Okay pinko commie. Lol
“You cant be a marxist and support genocide” is a better way to put it
No, you can’t.
A Stalinist or a Maoist, sure.
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The part I like is that nobody making noise about it actually cares about the Uyghurs. If they lived in anywhere other than China there would be calls to bomb them for being Muslims
True. They were dealing with Muslim fundamentalism. You can only improve the material conditions of a cult so much. Their methods should be criticized, but thinking capitalist countries would act differently is foolish. Just look at Gaza. What naysayers want to do is expose the hypocrisy, which is fair, without offering any solutions.
You can be a Capitalist and fully endorse it, too. Sort of the joke in all this. Liberals will kick and scream and cry about China, then roll up to their local retailer and fill their baskets with foreign made goods.
Maybe you’re feeling spicy and telling everyone you’ll buy exclusively from sweatshops in India or Indonesia, as though Modi’s Hinduvistas don’t have blood on their hands and the Jakarta Method means nothing.
But, at the end of the day, we’ll permit any amount of genocide, cultural or otherwise, if it means getting rock bottom labor rates from the other side of the planet.
The hypocrisy is not lost on me. I’ve never read the Jakarta Method. Vincent Bevins has a newer book, “ If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution.” It examines the horizontalism in recent mass movements and the prefiguration, or lack of, in protests since the Arab Spring. He recently did an interview on Upstream that was really interesting.
Adhering to Marxist Leninism aka Stalinism makes you a bad person. Drop that Leninist crap and seize the means of production with your fellow workers.
What’cha gonna do after? How d’ya maintain control? Lenin, wrote about it.
Everyone else- “Not that way!”
Because it makes unfairness in the world easier to tolerate if you have a fantasized perfect solution to the problems, same as religions and other political extremes.
if you have a fantasized perfect solution
Dialectic materialism is the exactly opposite of this, even China changes all the time. You cannot call everyone you disagree or is incapable of understand of fantasizing.
Given how many countries tried this system and turned into authoritarian oligarchies without providing better life for their people, I think we can call it a fantasy when people continue to believe that it can work. Yeah, China changed after millions of deaths from magical thinking based economical strategies, they turned to controlled capitalism and free global market, and it created historical growth and development of their country. Why do you think that it is not a counter exemple for communism? The only thing they seem to have kept from Marxism is the authoritarian phase and they are not going out of it. Capitalism is also materialistic, I’ll certainly give you that.
In the neoliberal thinking of economics, China and the US are both mixed economies. I can entertain this framing for a moment, so tell me, between the US and China, which of these countries is on the more socialist side of the mixed economy paradigm and which is more capitalist? Now look back to China overtaking the US in global trade and dominating the world in manufacturing, while the US regresses into a society that can no longer provide clean drinking water for everyone, with the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world.
Now, within this “mixed economy” paradigm, which side is winning? The capitalist or socialist side? We can haggle definitions all you want, but whether China is a true communist country or a more socialist mixed economy is a meaningless diversion from the objective reality that China’s approach to statecraft is qualitatively different from that of the West and it has thoroughly proven to be superior in the modern age. China’s unique approach to statecraft does not originate with neoliberal thinking, it follows from a combination of China’s historical experience and the theory of Marxism-Leninism; in other words, tankies winning, stay mad
Sorry tankie, you’re once again aiming at fantasized targets, I’m not defending USA’s system. I’m rather defending European social democracy as the best, even though not perfect, model we have tested, using regulated free market to provide economical efficiency, social safety nets to compensate for the negative effects and social freedoms that don’t exist in authoritarian regimes. Of course, we can and should do better for the social parts but I believe this model gives people’s better life than the tank crushed 996 life of Chinese people.
Yeah but, European social democracy is not self sustaining. Face it, you depend on the USA for everything. Without the USA, you have no LNG, your industry grinds to a halt and Europe freezes. Not to mention military support the USA provides through NATO, which seems to be so essential to maintain Europe’s poise against Russia. And the quality of life in Europe would not be so high without actual slave labor and sweatshops in the third world. “996” (which has already been discontinued years ago) doesn’t sound so bad in comparison.
Talking about fantasy, Europe is a “Shire”. It is a sheltered little play-place for the kiddies to enjoy while the real preconditions of civilization are toiled and fought over with sweat and blood on the horizon. The world in it’s entirety is a dark and shitty place. Just because you think you can forget about it by living in a happy little Nordic utopia does not mean you are not as much complicit in the utter violence outside that makes it possible. Say what you want about a country like North Korea, at least they take full responsibility for what makes a nation from within their own borders. Modern Europe is a parasite, the rest of the world would be better off without them.
It is the social democrats who live in fantasy land, I was actually steelmanning your argument by talking about the USA instead.
Critical thinking is punishable by public execution or something probably. Inb4 they blame liberals for taking all the good concepts.
Why are Muslims? https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250
Why is it only westerners who care about Muslims but only in China. Not in India, not in Palestine, not in Afghanistan, but only in China. Every where else you celebrate our slaughter or at best call it “meritless” as Kirby did.
We talking about T-90 Tankies or Leopard II Tankies? Type 99s or Merkavas?
Honestly, the people who seem to eat the most shit in the comments are the peaceniks. Being against a war is the fastest way to earn the label.
T 55 tankie with a grill on top of it
More like the T-34
Why are capitalist bootlickers so quick to call all communists “tankies”?
He’s not. I’m a communist and still acknowledge that China is a fuckjng awful place that’s commiting an array of human rights violations.
What does China have to do with communism?
The Republic Of China? Nothing
The People’s Republic Of China? Their dictator and his party call themselves communist, that’s what they have to do with communism.
The fact that their economic system has as much to do with communism as a Wall Street broker on crack in 2008 is another matter.
So is America
I know you are but what am I?
IknowyouarebutwhatamIINFINITYYYYYY
I believe the slurs are “capos” or “tradcaps.”
I wish the west would have the balls to call Israel out too. But eh, one genocide at a time I guess. Fuck China
Its not genocide if my team is doing it. I’m just fighting the terrorists. They’re doing the genocide.
Fuck China
If the US and China really do get into a war and bombs start falling all over the East Pacific, I’ve got to wonder whether the dead in Macau or the Singapore or Indonesia will garner the same pity as the folks in Kiev and the Gaza strip. I’ve got to wonder how cavalier Americans will feel about war if bombs ever reach their way to Hawaii or California or Texas.
Well… I’m guessing you don’t know about Pearl Harbour? The twin towers perhaps?
Those are the usual responses when America is attacked.
You can crack open a history book and see (with pictures) what America has done in the past when bombed/attacked. You don’t have to imagine you’re the first person to envision such a thing.
If the west’s media lies about Israel, why do you trust them to tell the truth about China?
Lemmy guess; the only true and honest media is Chinese, right?
The only true and honest media is investigating facts for yourself instead of taking anyone’s word for something
Because credible sources are calling their bullshit on Israel but not on China
West is calling out Israel - its just following the process rather than throwing words out without investigating
Why didn’t they follow the process with China? OIC did and find nothing wrong https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250
Are Muslims supposed to be gaslighted into believing the governments enabling their slaughter in Palestine, Yemen, Libya, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Myanmar, care about them? Or is this just about demonizing China?
Dont let the Tankies see this meme
Critical support for Comrade Xi’s Uyghur Genocide! (but also it’s not happening, and if it was it’s justified anyway)
I understand this is sarcastic, but cultural genocide should never be justified, in China or Palestine.
Now do Israel
I don’t feel the need to crowd the space. I think a lot of other people are doing a bang-up job, there.
Fair enough, every genocide deserves being called out
Adrian Zenz
Yes, but no. Zenz has exaggerated what is happening, but human rights groups’ limited investigations show that their is a disruption to the culture.
Honest question- are there mass killings as well? I did not follow this topic for a while, but I thought it is only mass
incarcerationreeducation campaign.There are multiple ways of making a people disappear
- Simply killing the people, this most agreed definition of genocide (shoah, armenians)
- Sterilizing everyone (various indigenous people like in Canada). You don’t kill anyone but you enfringe on the right to have kids. And you basically make a people disappear in a couple generations.
- Forced assimilation. The people are not killed and their genes stay in the pool, but their culture die off. Often accompanied by bad treatment, kidnapping etc. Sometimes called culturcide or ethnocide.
All three are considered genocide but the gravity of each can be debatted.
As I understand in Xinjiang, the third one seems confirmed, the second one possibly, and the first one probably not. Feel free to correct me.
Is it a genocide if genes are not destroyed? It is forceful cultural assimilation. Not everything bad has to be called genocide. There are other evils in the world, some of them are similar.
I think all that needs to happen is cultural erasure, which is different from assimilation.
But I am not sure if cultural erasure is called genocide by most people. I also do not think that complete cultural erasure is what China is doing. It erases only religious portion.
In USSR religion was forcefully removed. But nobody called that genocide.
I think religion is a package with multiple components. Core components are certainly contentious: belief you might not share, philosophy to which you might not adhere, myths and stories where you might value historical truth, rituals that might be harmful, and often the most problematic, power structures.
But there’s also aspects linked to religion that can be considered valuable (or at least harmless): clothing, names, architecture, various art forms, sometimes language, etc. So, even if only religion is targeted, there’s a lot of baggage linked to that. I don’t know enough about the situation to say how China is handling this intertwine between religion and culture.
I agree, that’s up to debate. Genocide is killing the “genus”, the family in latin. In plain english, it’s killing a “people”. But what’s a people? The individuals that compose it, or its culture, traditions and memory? That’s subjective I’m afraid.
At least I hope we can agree that both are pretty bad.
What if we talk about jihadists? ISIS? Such people are often jailed, and it is considered humane if they are convinced to drop their ideology. Are we doing genocide too?
The issue most people have with jihadists and ISIS is that they abuse many human rights, first among them murder. Not beliefs, acts. And human rights is exactly what people are blaming China for, too.
Now jail is contentious. Freedom is a human right. How much and how should we deprive someone’s rights to protect the rights of others? I don’t have the answer
Who defines human rights? Why human rights are greater than religion? And if they are, then should we round up most of the Islamists, which is significant part of Muslim population? If not, then we are OK with them violating human rights (and women rights specifically, too)? But not with China?
I didn’t know the concept of human right was not consensual, thanks. Despite you opening that topic, I notice that you still use the concept in your argument, you must have a personal definition in your mind.
If not, then we are OK with them violating human rights (and women rights specifically, too)?
That:
the Islamists, which is significant part of Muslim population
is a strong statement that requires a very large study across the very diverse muslim populations in the world. Gonna need a citation on this one.
And most westerners that accuse China of human right abuses are equally not okay with islamists’ abuses, so there’s no dichotomy.
Shhhh. It’s called a motte and bailey tactic. Come out strong with claims of genocide, but when you can’t back them up, oh no, it was alwyas a Cultural genocide. Then when an actual genocide happens in Palestine, you can deflect by saying Let’s not forget about the other “genocides”! All Genocides Matter!
Debated, but the things you mentioned qualify as genocide too because they also (slowly) destroy an ethnic group.
As far as I can tell just forced abortions and sterilization. It’s difficult to discern fact from propaganda.
You forgot to condemn the Organization for Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries for their silence on the Uyghur genocide. Muslims don’t care for one another like the West cares for them. They only pretend to care about Palestinians because they are antisemitic.
The brave people at VOA were quick to condemn them.
/s in case it isn’t obvious
If you googled the OIC report on Uyghur after they visited Xinjiang you will only get results for western outlets condemning it. It is clear who is using censorship to control the narrative https://www.google.com/search?q=oic+uyghur+repprt&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
They only pretend to care about Palestinians because they are antisemitic.
No its usually money lol. KSA and every surrounding country will happily continue to literally kill people who stand in their way whether it be against Israel or even basic human rights which they deny by denying citizenship unless you’re born to a citizen.
Most of the Muslim countries were also caught buying munitions and spyware from Israel too.
Also you shouldn’t put “West” into one category. Some countries do care about Muslims to varying degrees. Germany is pretty nice. USA only cares if you’ve become a citizen, otherwise screw off. France has always said screw off, and loves to exploit Africa well after colonialism ended.
Both UK and France convinced the USA to also be complacent in the Bosnian genocide, something the USA had no political reason to support like how they support Israel. All because UK and France didn’t want a Muslim country in Europe.
So Muslim countries and Muslims in general are afraid of China but not the West or India? It seems odd they aren’t speaking up on it but the West is. They are speaking up about everything else but the West mostly isn’t.
It is extremely racist to lump one of the largest demographics into one category and act like you are speaking for them lol
Islam itself is fractured into a ton of different groups that identify and want different things. Why are you trying to throw a blanket on it all?
Also any post that mentions Muslims and China you care so much to muddy the waters about. Hm
أروح أتكلم مع جدار أحسن لي.
Go do that and continue trying to legitimize your ability to speak for everyone.
Imagine if cause I spoke English I spoke for all English speaking people. That would be considered ignorant, racist and likely I’m probably not right.
Also it is the 21st century. You can just google translate stuff you doing this proves no sense of legitimacy so I dunno after you’re done maybe jump off that wall too?
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Least obvious Saudi government agent. Do you also need my maiden name?
Skinner is like the flatearthers… “its a conspiracy among ~several million people and several nations, they’re just very good at keeping the facts to themselves”
Any recent updates?
I need to read a lot more about it. I believe the Uyghur population is continuing to increase, although that doesn’t mean some of them aren’t being treated very badly.
Before the national security law SCMP was often trustworthy.
SCMP always sided with China for the more pressing matters
SCMP says that the US claims there’s a genocide there
You can add the ABC to that list.
