• stolid_agnostic
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    6 months ago

    You are saying that because the process isn’t automatic, and people now do not already see the world that way, that the process should never begin

    No, I’m saying that it hasn’t happened yet because humans as a whole aren’t ready for it. Maybe in 150-200 years we’ll be in a different place. Remember that when people said “Please wear a mask, my grandmother has cancer” about 50% of the populace yelled “FUCK YOUR GRANDMOTHER MY LIBERTIES ARE THE ONLY THINGS THAT MATTER.” With people like that, you can’t really have communism.

    • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      6 months ago

      No, I’m saying that it hasn’t happened yet because humans as a whole aren’t ready for it.

      Which is what you’re wrong about, because there are nations right now engaged in revolution. The largest nation in earth is currently involved in the most successful revolutionary project yet, which began back in 1949.

      You’re not wrong that the revolutionary potential in the imperial core is low for a number of factors. But that’s not the world.

      You also said

      each time it has been attempted it wasn’t really a communist revolution

      Which is not true and was more what i was talking about.

      • stolid_agnostic
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        6 months ago

        I guess I’m saying that Lenin, Mao, and Castro were after the power grab and dressed it up in the clothing of communism.

        • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          6 months ago

          During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum

          If they just wanted power, they could have easily joined the very powerful repressive governments that ruled at the time. Castro could have signed on with Batista’s regime. Mao could have joined the ruling KMT. Instead, they risked their lives doing the much harder and more dangerous work of going against the US empire and it’s puppet states.

        • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          6 months ago

          I already knew you were saying that. You’re wrong. If you want to talk about communism, you should investigate it first because you don’t know what you’re talking about

          • stolid_agnostic
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            6 months ago

            Such a missed opportunity. You could have used the chance to persuade me but instead decided to go ad hominem and make it personal.

              • stolid_agnostic
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                6 months ago

                Nah. This is a circle jerk. I say a thing and then the reactionaries descend to tell me that I’m wrong. Yet nobody has anything to offer beyond “you’re stupid”.

                • GinAndJuche@hexbear.net
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                  6 months ago

                  A group of better educated people are telling me I’m wrong, clearly they are just reactionaries.

                  What a beautiful mind you possess.

                • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  6 months ago

                  Oh, you must have missed my comment then. Here you go:

                  During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum

                  If they just wanted power, they could have easily joined the very powerful repressive governments that ruled at the time. Castro could have signed on with Batista’s regime. Mao could have joined the ruling KMT. Instead, they risked their lives doing the much harder and more dangerous work of going against the US empire and it’s puppet states.

            • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              6 months ago

              michael-laugh theres no personal attack in anything i said. You just don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of any of thise revolutions. Seems like you don’t even know what the internets favorite logic nerd term means either

              • stolid_agnostic
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                6 months ago

                “You just don’t know what you’re talking about…”

                That’s the part that makes it personal. Notable that you’ve still offered nothing in the way of your perceived correction. It stops at “you’re wrong” as if that were how conversations operate. If you believe I’m wrong, why not try to convince me?

                • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  6 months ago

                  “You just don’t know what you’re talking about…”

                  That’s the part that makes it personal.

                  That’s not a personal attack. A personal attack would be saying your a dumb reddit-brained smuglord. And an ad hominem would be saying you’re wrong because youre a dumb reddit-brained smuglord.

                  I didnt stop at saying your wrong. I said you should investigate the people and revolutions you’re talking about, because if you did investigate you would know you’re wrong. That’s why i said you don’t know what you’re talking about, because no one could have actually read about the 1917 revolution, the Chinese Revolution, or the Cuban revolution and think that they are not communist revolutions, or just “dressed up in the clothes of communism”

                  If you believe I’m wrong, why not try to convince me?

                  If you believe you’re right, why aren’t you trying to convincing me? michael-laugh

                  You’re the one who made an assertion that is obvioulsy untrue to anyone who knows about those subjects. You made these obviously false assertions without any evidence whatsoever, but somehow the burden of proof for what you said is on me.

                • manuallybreathing [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  6 months ago

                  Selected Works of Mao Tse-tung OPPOSE BOOK WORSHIP

                  May 1930 I. NO INVESTIGATION, NO RIGHT TO SPEAK

                  Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?

                  It won’ t do!

                  It won’t do!

                  You must investigate!

                  You must not talk nonsense!

                  https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-6/mswv6_11.htm