Kind of amazing how many instances are blocking lemmygrad as soon as they’re created. I know that liberals really don’t like dissenting opinions but goddamn
Kind of amazing how many instances are blocking lemmygrad as soon as they’re created. I know that liberals really don’t like dissenting opinions but goddamn
Well there are different degrees of how left you are, liking the CCP and the DPRK is too much for most, even communists
If liking communism is too much for communists then they might not be communists…
Everyone has limits, for some it’s concentration camps. It’s not something tribal where you have to support someone because they call themself communists. You can agree in principle but not in execution
I think the general consensus on this instance is that the actual execution isn’t the attrocity horror show that so many make it out to be: that capitalist dominance of media and education has either ridiculously distorted or outright fabricated many of the atrocities attributed to AES. This doesn’t mean people here like/support AES uncritically or unconditionally. However, the criticisms that will be levied against states/orgs here are going to be quite different from those of the more “libertarian” left.
I guess we disagree on that, I see no reason to make out some communist countries as hellholes (DPRK) while others like Cuba get a free pass. Other than that I consider DPRK leadership as more of a personal cult disguised with a communist state, and why communists would be compelled to defend that kind of stratification of society is beyond me
to be perfectly honest, I don’t even know why we comment on dprk. It’s extremely hard to know anything accurate about them, our 2 main sources are defectors paid off by South Korea or state propganda, which I have literally no way to tell is truthful or not (there’s also defectors who say they want to go back, but tbh I don’t really trust any anecdote).
Western media constantly makes up the most outlandish things about them (everyone has to get the same haircut or they and 3 generations of their family get sent to gulag!?!?!), and ultimately they aren’t a big player in global affairs, so I just don’t really get the point of having arguments about them. Let’s end the sanctions, and let north korean communists deal with their own problems (whether that’s using the state or not).
It is possible to know what’s happening in the DPRK, the government talks about it. There’s also English-speaking content creators who relay some of that information to the world in a language we understand.
Official documents, such as how their government and communist party (Workers’ Party of Korea) works or what Juche is, are freely available online.
You seem to assume that the DPRK would have reasons to lie, which I believe to be a remnant of essentially growing up being told the DPRK is a “hermit kingdom” and a “rogue state” (like all of us here) – in how you call defectors, for example, which implies that people had to flee Korea. There are thousands of Korean workers from the DPRK working abroad, most of them in Russia. Those that “fled” with their heart-wrenching stories actually just found a way to go to China, a bordering country.
Those that want to go back, for the most part, did not want to leave in the first place. Many left during the Arduous March, the economic crisis that affected the DPRK in the 1990s after the illegal dissolution of the USSR. This was a very difficult time for the people, and most of the anti-communist “defectors” today were kids around that time. Some pro-DPRK citizens also left during that time with the plans to come back. If I remember correctly, many went to China but were later kidnapped by the South Korean government. Some went to South Korea, and some were made prisoners of war and are still not allowed to go back home to the DPRK after all these years.The anti-communist “defectors” are a tiny minority of these prisoners/emigrants.
North Korea is itself a misnomer, the country’s name is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea; North Korea is not an official name but one given to differentiate it and legitimise the occupied part of the peninsula, the Republic of Korea. But there is only one Korea, and there would have only been one (The People’s Republic of Korea) had the US not intervened.
There’s only one correct line, and it’s support for the DPRK’s sovereignty over the whole of the Korean peninsula. I get why you suggest that we need to end the sanctions and let Korean communists deal with their affairs, but there’s the imperialist camp and the humanist camp in this issue. The imperialist camp wants an anti-communist Korea at any cost, they will genocide the whole of the DPRK if they have to. Saying “let them take care of their own matters” is not supportive of the DPRK’s struggle for unification.
It just seems like that isn’t a great argument to convince people to trust the DPRK to me. Like if they already don’t like the state, they’re not going to trust anything that comes from the government. I guess my point is that lifting the sanctions (and stop propping up the Republic of Korea’s government) is the bare minimum that any socialist should agree to. I only used north Korean because I wanted it to be clear that I was talking about someone from the DPRK
The only way we can “undo” the miseducation most of us have received on the DPRK is through proper reeducation. I know reeducation often has bad connotations, but I’ve never seen the word that way personally, reeducation is good!
They need to realise as the first step that all this cartoon evil stuff they’ve been told about the DPRK makes no sense, and for that they have to see that the DPRK is a normal country like all others, with a functioning state and government. We shouldn’t disguise the truth because liberals are not ready to hear it – we need to be confident in it, and they will come around eventually.
It’s hard to deny, for example, what Pyongyang looks like and that they’re building free housing for their population: https://twitter.com/NatalieRevolts/status/1513708649386020869. And sure, they’ll find counter arguments in the early stages, but eventually they’ll have to confront reality and realise the “only the high officials of the regime live in Pyongyang” makes no sense and does not hold up to scrutiny.
But I’m not pulling you into a debate or struggle session here 😀 I think for the most part we agree.
I am in broad, near total, agreement with you. There’s just the point about trust that I want to address.
For me, it’s not necessarily about ‘trusting’ the DPRK. It starts with recognising that we can’t trust anything Western governments or media say about the DPRK.
We know for certain that we cannot trust Western voices. (1) They have been caught in too many lies already. (2) Whether they lie or not, the world looks different from a dialectical materialist perspective, which makes bourgeois conclusions faulty even if they’re honest.
If this is correct, it means rebuilding a model of everything that capitalists have ever spoken about. That includes the DPRK, Cuba, etc.
In that case, we need to look for data and evidence from somewhere else, which happens to include official e.g. DPRK sources (although we can critically analyse Western sources and find the kernel of truth if there is one, to help us do the same to those un/official pro-DPRK sources and come to a new conclusion).
As for that conclusion, we do know some uncontrovertable facts. The US and it’s allies invaded Korea, killing millions of people. They invaded as a neocolonial project and to prevent the spread of communism. The US never left. An invading army that doesn’t leave is almost by definition an occupying force. That means the south of the peninsula is occupied by a foreign enemy.
Under these conditions, we cannot expect enlightenment in the region. As it happens, I’m convinced the north is a lot closer to paradise than Western media and officials ever suggest (not to say that it is or ever could be a paradise—I’m not a utopian socialist). For the majority of people, it may even be better in the north than in the south. But other ‘leftists’ don’t have to agree about that.
I think that recognising these details is necessary to convince westerners in general to act in solidarity with Korea to achieve the goals that you rightly say we need to achieve. We’re not going to get anywhere with lifting sanctions for so long as westerners implicitly agree that some level of occupation/action is necessary because the DPRK is XYZ.
After recognising these details, it becomes clearer that western leftists need to stop caring so much about what goes on in other countries (unless it’s to offer critical support) and focus instead on preventing their governments from conducting/facilitating the most violent empire in history. (Which I think you’re already saying?)
Maybe this will help https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_People's_Republic_of_Korea
Could you point me to the points in the article relevant to my comment? (This is a genuine request and I’m not being sarcastic)
You need to read everything, you are severely miseducated on the DPRK and it’s important to understand the history of Korea to understand the DPRK.
I did read everything and didn’t see anything relevant to what I said so I don’t know really what you want me to learn
Where is your evidence of concentration camps, the ones in Xinjiang have been long sense debunked
I’m mostly talking about the ones in DPRK. The claimed Chinese ones are more like culture erasure camps, I don’t know how you guys feel about those
They’re goddam schools. Also what “camps” in the DPRK? give source?
Would any source I give you be acceptable to you? Guessing western media is out of the question, WHO and HRW too. It’s difficult providing sources if the only acceptable ones are those that deny it’s happening
No. The western sources, why would they tell the truth or say good things about North Korea? They have no incentive. Think about it. There’s no reason for them to praise NK, but every reason to demonize it.
I know I sound like a brainwashed tankie, but… just think about it for a bit. If you’re willing to learn more, you can ask around, everyone here is friendly and open to new people. If you’re not, then lemmygrad probably isn’t the instance for you.
I’m fine with being hyper critical of sources, what I don’t understand is, if you go down that route dismissing sources because of some clandestine connection, why isn’t this applicable to any source? Western media controlled by the CIA or whatever with an agenda of demonizing socialism, media controlled by socialist countries with an agenda of demonizing capitalism. It’s so weird only extending that scepticism to western media
I would gladly debunk those HRW and western media sources, because I know all of them and their tactics always boil down to citing RFA (a CIA front), quoting “anonymous” sources, and just making shit up. It’s yellow journalism. Please feel free to cite them, don’t assume we will reject them outright – you’ve jumped to a conclusion before leaving us a chance to take on your assumptions.
Any source. Surveying all the evidence is a fundamental aspect of Marxist analysis.
It doesn’t have to be in English, either. It’s the language of the forum but there are people here from all over, who may be able to explain sources in other languages for those who can’t read it (and there’s always DeepL). That said, in this case, English is probably your best bet for a wider response and is probably the language of the source in any event.
Why bring concentration camps in this conversation?
It was relevant to the conversation? Or is it something that’s denied by people on here that they exist?
That the Nazis sent people to concentration camps? I would hope nobody here denies that.
I believe they’re talking about Xinjiang.
Between 75 and 90% of our users are a minority in some way: either in gender or sexual identity, skin colour or religion.
They have no problem liking the DPRK and CPC.
Beehaw isn’t even on the left, I’m not sure what you think communists are. They’re the well-intentioned liberals MLK was talking about.
I would be really interested if those are actual numbers. It seems like a bit too high, but shame there is basically no way to know for sure without some privacy issues.
We’ve never ran a website survey exactly for the privacy reason, but based on the active users on the site as well as account request answers, the very least amount of minorities on Lemmygrad is 50% of users. 75 seems more realistic though.
Anecdotally, it feels that way. It’s one of the great things about this place.
That makes it even more weird, given the DPRK’s stance on sexual identity and religion. Don’t know any branch of communism that is particularly fond of religion. I don’t come from beehaw, I don’t know what they’re about.
What stances against religion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondoist_Chongu_Party
What stances on sexual identity? https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_and_issues_in_AES_countries#Democratic_People’s_Republic_of_Korea
Liberation Theory and Islamic Socialism (of which we have a community here), and that doesn’t even go into the importance of religion in national liberation struggles.
Cuba is predominantly Catholic
"However, the situation for the party soon turned difficult. Large sections of the Soviet and North Korean communist leaderships did not trust the party, and saw it as a potential nest for counterrevolutionaries. The most troublesome issue was that the North Korean Ch’ŏndogyo continued to have contacts with the leadership of the religious group in South Korean Seoul. There, the Ch’ŏndogyo leadership was anti-communist and supported the administration of President Syngman Rhee. In January 1948, the Ch’ŏndogyo leadership based in Seoul made a decision that a massive anti-communist demonstration would be held on 1 March in Pyongyang. This put the Chondist Chongu Party in the North in a precarious situation. Kim Tarhyon refused to follow the orders from Seoul, but others in the party leadership wanted to go ahead with the plans. The result was a massive purge of party members throughout North Korea. In its aftermath, the anti-communist sections of the movement initiated an underground resistance movement and tried to launch guerrilla warfare.
Kim Tarhyon and the people around him reaffirmed their loyalty to the DPRK. In 1950 the Chondoist Chongu Party in the South (but not the religious movement) united with the Northern party under his leadership. During the Korean War the headquarters of the party was shifted to a town near the border with China. The party leadership actively supported the DPRK war efforts, but many party cadres migrated to South Korea during the war. Many sided with Seoul during the war. In the aftermath of the war, the idea of the united front was increasingly unpopular in the North Korean government circles and many wanted the non-communist parties banned. In the end the united front was maintained, but the possibility for the Chondoist Chongu Party to conduct political activity was severely curtailed.
In 1954 the government subsidies to the party were cancelled. By 1956 there were approximately 1,700–3,000 members left (out of 10,000–50,000 remaining Ch’ŏndogyo believers). At the same time about 200 persons were full-time employees of the party. In order to finance the party, it ran an iron foundry and a printing house."
Pretty funny from your link