My answer to the concept of “justifiable hierarchies”

    • @southerntofuOP
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      13 years ago

      There isn’t much demonstrated success applying this in practice however.

      There is and there was. That most anarchist communes have been eradicated by authoritarians of all stripes doesn’t mean they weren’t successful. The two last ones to fall in the past few years, la ZAD and Exarchia, were really amazing communities where one could live without money and (mostly) without oppression.

      they were still very much under state control

      It depends. State control was widely limited by (lack of) technological means. People living in the mountains/swamps were mostly rid of State control because there was no gasoline to take an army up there. And whatever control the State had, they didn’t have cameras on the streets and a television spitting lies in every home to exert their control.

      I’m not idealizing the middle ages, there were a lot of problems. But free communes and peasant uprisings were a thing back then. Can we say the same today in the western world?

      Feudalism wasn’t any closer to anarchism than capitalism.

      Definitely not. My point was simply that back then, people could technically evade feudalism by fleeing from the centers of power. While evading capitalism today is mostly impossible (or please show me how).

      Perhaps Zapatista would be the closest example, although they don’t consider themselves anarchist. Yet, even they only managed to carve out a niche for themselves within of a capitalist state.

      From my (limited) understanding of the zapatistas, they are indeed an anarchist movement (from my definition). They are building dual power from the ground up without higher authority.

      What really sets zapatism apart from other marxist revolutions, is that the armed branch of the revolution (EZLN) explicitly recognizes they are not representative of the people and the people should decide for themselves. EZLN is only here to protect the revolution against outside threats, and does not worry about internal politics.

      This healthy self-criticism and strong separation of powers is what enables the movement to build concrete autonomy, whereas revolutionary avant-garde (of the past) have actively sabotaged revolutionary efforts (eg. bolsheviks taking power away from the soviets, into the hands of the State).

      Also it’s not a small niche. Zapatist communities are huge, and are well connected to the social struggles of the urban centers. As recently as last year, the movement announced the creation of new autonomous regions (caracols) so it’s still growing.

      there have been numerous successful ML revolutions that liberated millions of people across the globe

      And killed/enslaved millions of others. “Liberation” is not how people in the USSR/Spain/China experienced it: see Cronstadt/Makhnovtchina for example of true revolutionaries rising up against the counter-revolutionary bolshevik tyrants for social justice and self-determination (spoiler: they were massacred). If you’re interested in that, Emma Goldman has very detailed, first-hand accounts of her disillusions with the Russian revolution and the bolshevik dictatorship (of the proletariat, or so they say).

      The first question that needs to be asked is how such a system can be overthrown in order for something different to be possible.

      For me the first question is how can we avoid reproducing this, personally and as communities. Overthrowing a system of oppression to replace it with another one is of no interest to me. Whether i’m placed in a concentration camp by the capital’s police or the people’s police makes no difference to me. Burn all prisons and police stations, then we can start to think differently about living together as a society.

        • @southerntofuOP
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          13 years ago

          It doesn’t matter how amazing these communities are if they’re unable to defend themselves from external threats effectively.

          I strongly disagree. What matters is living by our ideals everyday and if that means death, so be it. By focusing on remote end-goals instead of today’s praxis, you are reproducing the worst there is in humanity. A conqueror’s mindset who wants to impose their worldview on everyone else in the name of socialism, is the worst enemy of actual socialism.

          The Amish exist in the western world, but most people are choosing not to live that way.

          The Amish only exist in the USA to my knowledge, and enjoy a certain exceptional privilege of cultural exception there from my understanding. I’ve never heard of Amish sovereign lands being threatened by huge corporations supported by the USA armed forces, as is often the case with indigenous nations. Also many people in the western world choose to live like that, but in countries like France suffer from strong political persecution.

          Lords demanded tributes from villages on their lands, and those who failed to produce it would suffer severe consequences. People of course could run to live in the woods, but they can do that today exactly the same way.

          Lords were not everywhere ; there were free communes as well. Running into the woods was an option, but barely is nowadays. People who try to live peacefully on the countryside, detached from capitalist society, are repressed by the State apparatus who comes and destroys their homes ; at least so is the situation in France, where DIY housing is considered unsuitable housing and destroyed by police forces on authority of the préfet ; yes, even on private properties in case you were wondering.

          The armed branch in Marxist revolutions also consists of the people

          Sure. Any group of people consists of the people. A bosses union also consists of the people. Does that make them representative of the entire population? Fact is the zapatista militias don’t trust themselves to become the enlightened vanguard guiding the people (healthy self-criticism), and they actively tell everyone to build their own community power, not trust some other authority. That’s what, in my understanding of the word, makes them anarchists.

          You speak out of sheer ignorance here if you think that the people of USSR and China were not liberated by their revolutions.

          I don’t speak out of personal experience because i was born and raised in France. However, i have met enough political refugees from Marxist-Leninist state capitalism to know there was no communism in Russia. If you don’t want to see the countless counter-revolutionary crimes of your own country, too bad for you, the rest of the world remembers. To me, placing a “communist” label on a bloody dictatorship where the workers/peasants have no power and no rights is the worst crime against communism, because it’s not only the exact opposite of communism (totalitarianism), it’s an insult to the very idea of communism.

          you’re just making a false equivalence here.

          What false equivalence? I genuinely don’t care if i’m interned/executed by capitalists for being an anarchist, or if i’m being interned/executed by marxist-leninists for being an anarchist. I will fight for freedom and equality until the end.