Russia started a war in Ukraine. The west started the economic war with Russia in response to that. Then Russia retaliated against the west. Russia was perfectly fine trading with the west while fighting a war in Ukraine. What part of this are you struggling with specifically?
I’ve kind of given up on having any sort of nuance here. Most people in the west think that Russia just randomly invaded Ukraine because they’re evil orcs and there’s nothing you can say to change that. It’s easier to point out that their strategy is ultimately self destructive and hurts them more than it does Russia.
Maybe. It’s not even an nuance at this point. I just get downvoted for stating the dryest, most easily checkable fact, while in the other threads we see things like complete reality denial get pushed.
I do think that it’s pretty important fact though. That the war was started by the maidan coup regime murdering people in Donbas who didn’t even wanted to join Russia or be independent at first, they just wanted to not be shock therapied, treated as the second class citizens or murdered like the people in Odessa.
Oh yeah I completely agree, I made a lengthy post that provides some context a little while back. I’m just kind of tired of having to repeat that over and over when people clearly have no interest to engage with reality.
At the very least it’s clear that there were plenty of off ramps that could have avoided the war. Russia tried to find diplomatic solutions for eight years while both the west and their puppet regime in Ukraine refused.
Furthermore, the war is directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia where NATO recognized the independence of breakaway regions, then had them invite NATO for support on the pretext of genocide, and ran referendums for the regions to separate. Russia is just following the precedent established by the west here.
Russia tried to find diplomatic solutions for eight years while both the west and their puppet regime in Ukraine refused.
Not only Russia tried that. The USA, France Germany and most importantly Ukraine tried it as well. No one wanted that war to start (well Russia apparently eventually chose to do so anyway)
Furthermore, the war is directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia
"directly? I’m pretty sure that this is not true even though those things do look familiar on the surface. This is definitely an argument Russia is using why they started the war. But one wrong doing of NATO does not in any way justify a wrongdoing of Russia.
Great. Finally a sane, almost friendly answer of yours. Very rare occasion.
Russia was perfectly fine trading with the west while fighting a war in Ukraine.
Yes of course, why wouldn’t Russia be fine? But you also have to acknowledge that Russia prepared for that economic war well before the current conflict. And even though EU might have started the economic war, Russia started the decrease of delivery of gas to pressure the EU.
But of course it is mostly the EUs fault to so heavily rely on Russia gas in the first place. In hindsight the signals of the geopolitical shift Russia took where clear even before 2014 but the EU ignored them.
The original point was that EU started the economic war which is now destroying EU. This was not the fault of Russia. Glad you’ve finally managed to acknowledge that.
It doesn’t matter what EU chose to sanction. EU started an economic war with Russia, and Russia responded. If you punch me in the face and I proceed to kick you in the balls, that’s not me starting the fight.
Sanctions were a poorly thought out response. Russia started a conflict in Ukraine, and Europe chose to participate in that conflict by sanctioning Russia. Once Europe became a party to the conflict, Europe can no longer complain that Russia is retaliating against Europe economically. This is a fight Europe chose and these are the consequences.
Okay. Let’s test that. Who started the war?
Russia started a war in Ukraine. The west started the economic war with Russia in response to that. Then Russia retaliated against the west. Russia was perfectly fine trading with the west while fighting a war in Ukraine. What part of this are you struggling with specifically?
Wouldn’t that be rather continuation of the war in Donbass? Russia did invaded Ukraine and joined it, but the war was already ongoing for 8 years.
I’ve kind of given up on having any sort of nuance here. Most people in the west think that Russia just randomly invaded Ukraine because they’re evil orcs and there’s nothing you can say to change that. It’s easier to point out that their strategy is ultimately self destructive and hurts them more than it does Russia.
Maybe. It’s not even an nuance at this point. I just get downvoted for stating the dryest, most easily checkable fact, while in the other threads we see things like complete reality denial get pushed.
I do think that it’s pretty important fact though. That the war was started by the maidan coup regime murdering people in Donbas who didn’t even wanted to join Russia or be independent at first, they just wanted to not be shock therapied, treated as the second class citizens or murdered like the people in Odessa.
Oh yeah I completely agree, I made a lengthy post that provides some context a little while back. I’m just kind of tired of having to repeat that over and over when people clearly have no interest to engage with reality.
But what should this context tell us? At the very least this is in no way any justification for russia starting a war against the whole Ukraine.
At the very least it’s clear that there were plenty of off ramps that could have avoided the war. Russia tried to find diplomatic solutions for eight years while both the west and their puppet regime in Ukraine refused.
Furthermore, the war is directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia where NATO recognized the independence of breakaway regions, then had them invite NATO for support on the pretext of genocide, and ran referendums for the regions to separate. Russia is just following the precedent established by the west here.
Not only Russia tried that. The USA, France Germany and most importantly Ukraine tried it as well. No one wanted that war to start (well Russia apparently eventually chose to do so anyway)
"directly? I’m pretty sure that this is not true even though those things do look familiar on the surface. This is definitely an argument Russia is using why they started the war. But one wrong doing of NATO does not in any way justify a wrongdoing of Russia.
Great. Finally a sane, almost friendly answer of yours. Very rare occasion.
Yes of course, why wouldn’t Russia be fine? But you also have to acknowledge that Russia prepared for that economic war well before the current conflict. And even though EU might have started the economic war, Russia started the decrease of delivery of gas to pressure the EU.
But of course it is mostly the EUs fault to so heavily rely on Russia gas in the first place. In hindsight the signals of the geopolitical shift Russia took where clear even before 2014 but the EU ignored them.
The original point was that EU started the economic war which is now destroying EU. This was not the fault of Russia. Glad you’ve finally managed to acknowledge that.
But this is where we disagree. The EU sanctioned Russia which did exclude things like gas.
It is very much Russias fault that those prices are going up now as it stopped the delivery of gas.
But that is not to say that the EU could’ve known better.
It doesn’t matter what EU chose to sanction. EU started an economic war with Russia, and Russia responded. If you punch me in the face and I proceed to kick you in the balls, that’s not me starting the fight.
Oh it does. And also it does matter because Russia started the war. The sanctions where the response.
So Russia was the face puncher while Europe the ball kicker to stay in your analogy.
Sanctions were a poorly thought out response. Russia started a conflict in Ukraine, and Europe chose to participate in that conflict by sanctioning Russia. Once Europe became a party to the conflict, Europe can no longer complain that Russia is retaliating against Europe economically. This is a fight Europe chose and these are the consequences.
But it can, the same as Russia can complain that NATO members are supporting Ukraine.
True. But this fight was chosen in response to Russias agression. Diplomatic solutions before the war failed because of Russias maximalist claims.