• TheMage
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    42
    arrow-down
    57
    ·
    1 year ago

    More money being pissed away on Ukraine? Wow. That Zalensky guy must have photos of a naked Biden with some White House aide or whatever. This is a joke and a massive abuse of US taxpayer money. When does this end? How is the US benefitting from this? Oh, we aren’t at all. Hmmm. I wonder if there is something behind the scenes going on here? Like some other motive? I mean, it’s the Biden’s…… sort of a shady track record.

    And don’t gimme a bunch of whataboutisms either. Don’t care. This Ukraine thing is a farce. Enough. We’re done.

    • Assian_Candor [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      64
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      How is the US benefitting from this?

      Draining the resources of geopolitical rival without dead troops, weapons exports and lucrative contracts for reconstruction.

      You should read war is a racket https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

      The guy who wrote it, smedley butler, was a highly decorated major general

      Capital loves war which is why the US has been at war for something like 92% of its miserable existence. Of course the average person gets fucked

    • Sasuke [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      53
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      How is the US benefitting from this?

      well it’s making europe reliant on US energy, for one (with all the ramifications that entails)

      • RonJonGuaido [none/use name]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        49
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s kind of funny seeing these kind of comments on Lemmy and playing the “alt-right or tankie” game before you see someones instance.

        huh, i see comments like yours and i think “lib moron” and then i don’t give it another thought.

          • Bnova [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            57
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Yeah, invasions are out of fashion. All the West does is make a country’s development contingent on their willingness to let the West exploit their natural resources and labor and then cut said development if they fund a social program or coup them if the “locals” are uncooperative. All after gutting these countries for hundreds of years via colonialism. You don’t need to do an invasion when you can just put a noose around the neck of a country.

            Oh and the West still does invasions look at Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And UK special forces have been in Syria, the Sudan, Nigeria, and others as recently as last year.

            https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/23/uk-special-forces-have-operated-secretly-in-19-countries-since-2011

          • Bakzik [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            52
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            Average neoliberal Pirate. Your bloodthirsty country should return all the gold and art that was stolen from all around the world.

            PD: Read about neocolonialism.

            • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              Yeah neocolonialism the thing Russia is attempting right now. If you oppose neocolonialism you should oppose Russia.

              Or do you just hate western countries for fashy past grievances reasons?

              • Bakzik [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                27
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Hey, Space Neoliberalist. If you ever touch some real theory (instead of reading Harry Potter and The Washington Post), like Lenin. You would know that this is an inter-capitalist conflict (you know what that means?). If you think that USA is helping in good faith (and not in the interest of colonialism exploitation in the long run), you are an idiot.

                “fashy past grievances reasons”

                So denouncing the crimes of the west is fascist now?

                -“Hey USA shouldn’t have supported dictatorships in Latin America with their Plan Cóndor, or helped in the coup against the democratic elected Salvador Allende. Or dropped two atomic bombs in two civilian cities, or having the highest incarcerated population doing slave labor, or burn with napalm villages, or puting children in cages in the border, or….”. I could be all night talking about USA crimes. A whole month with the Nato members crimes.

                -”Shut up fascist.”

                Is always projetion with you liberals. Scrath a liberal, and a bloodthirsty nafo fascist bleeds.

                • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  The problem with “both sides” arguments is you tacitly admitting your side is wrong when you do that.

                  Yeah sure the US shouldn’t have done those things in the past. But these are past grievances, which is the cornerstone of fascist thinking. “Our present day horrible actions are justified because of the horrible things others have done in the past!”

                  Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.

                  Also, why should Ukrainians suffer so that Russia can expand their empire?

                  I have no doubt about the ability of fascists to go on and on about past grievances. But what grievance do you have with Ukraine specifically?

                  • Bakzik [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    21
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    The brainworms are strong in this one.

                    You clearly didn’t read the Lenin book I linked and, by seeing your activity in here, you are close to the ban.

                    So I just want to say that is so fucking funny that you think that the passing of time exonerates USA from their crimes. I mean, how much time has to pass? They are still putting children in cages, invading countries, having the highest incarcerated population, making coups in foreign countries, etc.

                    But let’s follow your logic, and let’s wait a few years. That way all the Russian crimes will be just past grievances.

                    Let’s just do that.

                    Fascist idiot che-smile

                  • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    14
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.

                    It was wrong for the US to coup Ukraine’s government, but also wrong for Russia to intervene to stop the coup government from killing civilians after like 8 years, got it.

                  • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    8
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Bud I’m begging you read one serious academic text analyzing the rise and system of fascism, before you do something embarrassing like call indigenous people complaining about what the US has done to them fascists for airing past grievances.

              • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                26
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Holy shit at least look the fucking word up in a dictionary before you try to turn it around on someone else you buffoon

                Even if you were going to butcher the term ‘colonialism’ THAT’S the one that’s relevant if a country is being occupied militarily.

                WHY DO YOU SPEAK AT ALL. YOU NEED SO MUCH READING AND LISTENING BEFORE YOU STOP SPEAKING NONSENSE. INVESTIGATE WHAT YOU SAY AAAAAAAA stalin-stressed

          • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            41
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Tell that to Yemen.

            Also ‘we haven’t invaded anywhere in the very immediate past (though the genocidal war criminals who perpetrated our last invasion are still important and celebrated public figures)’ is a pretty fucking weak justification from a country insisting on being world police.

      • ZapataCadabra [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        40
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        that it sends a message to other dictators

        What message is America sending to the dictators that we bankroll while they perform genocide using US equipment and training?

      • Bobby_DROP_TABLES [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        34
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country

        Do you think the west has a genuine interest in consistently enforcing this or do you just not care when people you like do it?

      • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        24
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yeah we’ve really cultivated a lot of prestiege on this one, the west definitely hasn’t absolutely embarrassed itself and unified large swathes of the world against it. And hey, it only took like three rounds of sabotaged peace talks and and multiple generations of Ukranians fed into a big novelty Northrop-Grumman branded meat grinder.

      • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        21
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country,

        You mean like the collective west did to Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya? Who’s supposed to send the message to our dictators when it’s time to stop?

      • Farman [any]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        You could say the same thing but with putin sending the message and it would be more acurate.

      • UnhealthyPersona@beehaw.org
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        For some people, everything has to be a conspiracy. Logical, easily verifiable reasons for things can’t possibly be the truth to them. Especially if it comes from the opposing political party, it is automatically false to them. Even if verifiable.

        Honestly I wasn’t sure of the benefit either, but your response makes so much sense. I don’t know why there always has to be conspiracies for obvious stuff.

      • Hexadecimalkink
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        This is giving “the UN is an effective international governance body” energy.

    • Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      20
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      We’re giving Ukraine our table scraps that are too nice to toss, but too expensive to keep. They’re using them to defeat a long-standing geopolitical foe at no costs to American lives.

      Ukraine doesn’t need dirt to get our help, this is the best money the US has spent since Lend-Lease.

    • Farman [any]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      The high energy prices mean its no longer profitable to run heavy industries in europe. So the us is cannibalizing some of german industry. Thats the profit the us gets.

    • Saganastic@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      Supporting free and democratic Ukraine is preferable to letting fascist Russia become neighbors with NATO.

      • Skua@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        I agree wholeheartedly with supporting Ukraine, but Russia has had a land border with NATO for twenty years at this point. They just pretend they don’t so that they can cry “NATO expansionism!”

    • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      When does this end?

      When Russia is defeated.

      How is the US benefitting from this?

      It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you. This has a chilling effect on authoritarians, making them refrain from this kind of activity. This improves global security, which results in better trade, which improves the global economy. The US being on the globe benefits from this.

      Also, do you like how much you’re paying for groceries? Could it be this war is causing a disruption in grain supply? You know that stuff that goes into bread, the feed that cows eat, etc? Yeah, I know people on the internet are all blaming their own governments (in basically every country, LOL) for high grocery prices, because no one wants to say that’s it’s Putin. Sure there is probably some assholes jacking up the prices more than necessary, but do you think all the corporations and all of the governments got together and decided to do this? Nope the inflation, the high grocery prices, it’s because of Putin’s bullshit.

      Not to mention all of the influence campaigns Russia is running on the internet. You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries. Taking down Putin will lessen that buillshit. I say lessen because after seeing Russia’s success other countries like China are getting in on that game now too. But one asshole at a time.

      • ZapataCadabra [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        42
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you

        Man I wish someone sent that message to the US before they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, carpet bombed Syria and Libya, and funded various forms of jihadist militant groups for the past 20+ years.

        There’s exactly one county that’s been toppling democracies and bankrolling dictators for almost a 100 years and it’s amerikkka baby.

      • windowlicker [she/her]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        23
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        yeah its definitely putin’s fault everything is more expensive and not corporate greedy price-gouging. remember, everything is putin’s fault! the west is perfect!

      • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        22
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries.

        Seeing how you NAFO psychos behave has actually completely convinced me that the only path forward is to burn DC (and Langley) to the ground and that NATO must be dismantled if there’s ever going to be lasting peace. Congratulations.

        • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Not Langley! That’s where I live! LOL

          A little secret, don’t tell anyone… I’m a member of NAFO because I bought some stickers from their website. Everything else you got going on is just paranoid delusions that you came to by reading too much glavset propaganda on the internet.

      • Gorillatactics [none/use name]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you

        Help i fucked up, I accidentally sent the stuff to the Saudis not the Yemenis who being invaded.

      • TheMage
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        20
        ·
        1 year ago

        Right, because there isn’t possibly any other motives here or objectives. Like the circus guys said: There’s. Sucker born every minute.

          • jwiggler@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            The fact that you’re assuming this person is a Fox “News” consumer is emblematic of the overall media’s coverage of the war in Ukraine. A person can be anti-war and still part of the left. But not according to you, or others who immediately jump to things like, “go back to licking Putins boot, watching Fox News, etc.” You are shutting down any sort of constructive conversation.

            The media has made the war in Ukraine a moral imperative by making it democratic Ukraine vs authoritarian Russia. War makes everything black and white. So it becomes impossible to say something like, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is wrong” while also saying “The US should not support Ukraine with weapons.”

            I am anti-war. I do not think the US should support Ukraine with weapons. To me, I am extremely skeptical of the simplistic idea that we are aiding democracy and staunching authoritarianism. I think that kind of of rhetoric pervaded the conflicts in the Middle East, and I think in those cases, it was more accepted by the public that the US was acting in a more imperialistic manner. I think that fits closer to the mark here, too.

            For one thing, the US was directly involved in Ukraine’s revolution in 2014, trying to position people in power who had a more EU friendly demeanor. And they helped expand NATO bases closer to Russian borders. These two things, while they certainly do not justify Russia’s invasion, I’m sure made them feel threatened. Now, I don’t have much historical knowledge of Ukraine or Russia, but certainly they’ve had more than just a geographic relationship over the past century or so. If Russia was involved in a Mexican revolution, trying to make them friendlier to Russia rather than the US, I’m sure the US would have a problem with that. Still, the US would not be justified in invading Mexico, as Russia is not justified in invading the Ukraine. This is just to point out the same type of meddling that the US does all across the globe in the name of “democracy” or “free market capitalism”, we were doing here, too.

            I think it’s doubtful that this is all purely in the name of democracy. After all, look at what is happening to Palestine. They are a country occupied by the authoritarian state of Israel, and we do nothing. So, to me, there are other factors at play in Ukraine. One, I think, is that war is profitable. “Defense” companies like Raytheon and BAE actually have an interest in perpetuating war, as it brings in profits. So big firms are going to support giant aid packages, as it means they’re going to get business.

            Another, I think, is that war is politically profitable. When you can get your party to demonize an individual or country and unite around the noble war effort, it’s just another issue you’ve manufactured to get their vote.

            Anyways. I just don’t buy that this war is about democracy or any higher moral value. I think it’s about money, to be honest, and politics. Mostly money. It’s a proxy war between the US and Russia and I think the media has pushed the narrative that it is a morally imperative war between Ukraine and Russia because it is financially interested in perpetuating the conflict. I don’t think the US has an interest in actually ending the war.

            And overall, I just think war is one of the greatest evils, and I will almost never support it. Real people are dying for fucking what? If that makes me a Fox News watcher, or conservative, or Putin lover, or whatever name you want to sling my way, I guess so be it. It’s dumb, but so be it.

            Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why because I’d like to hear your viewpoint so that I can adjust mine appropriately. I’m not interested in name-calling, but an actual conversation about this topic would be cool.

            • Anomander@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why

              People on the internet don’t owe you a debate.

              Especially when the prompt is a somewhat sanctimonious effort-dump sealioning “we should let Russia have Ukraine” as if its a reasonable liberal imperative, all in response to a stupid one-liner.

              • jwiggler@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Thank you for the insults, I guess the point of my effort dump is moreso that I dont think it’s really as black and white as people make it, I think it deserves some nuance. Which is a little ironic because you summed the whole thing up in six words! Haha

                But no, I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to be against a war. You do? I do not support Russia. But I don’t think the US should be sending military aid to Ukraine.

                Edit: or, I mean against this war

            • pedalmore@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Your entire rant boils down to “I disagree with Russia’s invasion, but since they did it anyway they should have no consequences, even when they commit genocide”. A conversation isn’t required to counter this dogshit position.

              • jwiggler@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                Well, I actually didn’t say any of that, but thanks for stripping any nuance from what I said, creating a strawman, and then attacking that, instead.

                • pedalmore@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  No amount of nuance will make your core position tenable to those that think Ukraine deserves outside (e.g. NATO) support to protect them from the Russian invaders. You simply don’t think Ukraine deserves support, condemning them to genocide. Everything else you said is weird posturing to try and disguise your actual point. It’s not our first rodeo, we can all see right through this.

                  • jwiggler@sh.itjust.works
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    I don’t think they should be condemned to genocide, but I don’t think we should be sending them weapons. I think Biden should be talking to Putin in some capacity, which he is not. Radio silence. I think that exacerbates the war.

                    I don’t think this weird moral imperative is real, like we’re America so we ought to do something. I don’t think that it’s real because, just like in Russia, where you’ve got an active conflict and you’ve got some Russian propaganda calling for the denazification (what you’ve correctly referred to as genocidal) you also have, in Israel, active conflict of genocidal nature between Israel against Palestinians, but we do nothing.

                    So you’re saying, we, America should condemn Palestine to genocide? Or how about the Uhygur peoples? Should we engage in a proxy war with China? Certainly, according to your claims that otherwise we are dooming them to genocide by their occupying country.

                    That moral imperative you’re talking about is fabricated, because if the US government actually cared about these people – Ukrainians, Palestinians, or Uhygur – we’d be sending military aid to all of them, or else we’d be “condemning them to genocide,” as you say.

                    This aid is not going to Ukraine to help them endure genocidal forces. It’s going there to perpetuate our constant war economy that is reliant on conflict. It’s going there to unite the political party against an outside evil and to further the US geopolitical and global free-market goals.

          • TheMage
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            1 year ago

            When you stop watching The View, MSNBC & The Rachel Madcow show, Ill consider dumping Fox News. :).

            • Baphomet_The_Blasphemer@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I already don’t watch any of that drivel so you got yourself a deal buddy. You just go ahead and let me know when you want to uphold your end and dump fox news.

              • TheMage
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                My end? Did we make some sort of pact? Please. Face it: everyone has their favorite sources for stuff and it’s always based on what they agree with. You’re not above this.

                • Baphomet_The_Blasphemer@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You said you’d consider dumping fox news when I stopped watching the programs you mentioned. That sounded like a pact to me.

                  The problem with all news media these days is it no longer gives you the facts without it also telling you how you should feel about the facts based on their particular biases. If you only look to the sources that confirm your bias you’re not getting properly informed on the issues, you’re simply existing in an echo chamber having your views reaffirmed by the others that share them without ever hearing or considering there might be more to the story.

                  I never claimed to be above being affected by this myself, but I am consciously aware of how serious a problem it is. I do the best I’m able to see all sides of an issue, from multiple sources, the more non-biased the better (though this is getting increasingly more difficult), and then I make up my own mind as to what I think without allowing the media to tell me how I should feel.

                  Fox news is one of the worst sources for biased news as it is the only news network that was started with the agenda of specifically appealing towards a conservative audience. They have even won defamation lawsuits by arguing their shows are performances and shouldn’t be taken as fact. They’ve always cared more about ratings than the truth… MSNBC is a close second on spewing drivel catering to liberals. I wouldn’t trust anything either of them say without first doing some independent research on my own.

                  • TheMage
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    3
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Can’t disagree about the popular news networks. I actually read a few headlines and articles from several, just to entertain myself. I know that they all have a slant. That being said, this Ukraine thing is getting ridiculous now. A gajillion dollars and counting. Where is it all going? Anyone tracking it? Are we SURE golden boy Biden isn’t involved in some “cheesy” stuff here? His track record certainly supports it. What other nations are chipping in here? Or is it the usual: everyone hates the USA until they need money or military support. Hmmmm.

                    This Zalensky guy seems like a snake too. How rich is he now?