eem, what kind of sources do you need? Most of the stuff I mentioned is very well documented and a simple search on the internet will yield plenty of evidence…
Which exactly of those are you denying?
The article you linked describes a perfect and utopian version of communism that has never been achieved. The author does not take into account (at all) any of the horrible stuff that happened to the USSR citizens. Also, his main point hinges on how great the public healthcare, housing, transportation, science were, food etc. Well, no such luck here. Here is a nice wikipedia article documenting all the basic things deficits of the Soviet Union (unfortunately only in Russian). But here are some interesting extracts from it:
Waiting anywhere from 2-3 to 10-12 years for the right to buy a car because of great deficit, because most of the cars were exported for whatever reason
Common household items like washing machines, fridges, televisions were in very short supply, and would result in feverish demand when they were in stock.
Other items like tape players, electrical tools were in less shortage, but were still outrageously expensive, with prices often being higher than the yearly pay of an average worker
Books stores lacked books because most of them were written by communist writers about communism, which were not too popular in the USSR and also lack of books because of censorship
To get an item that was in deficit you had to wait in a line, often in many lines for every particular item. Those live lines could get as 8 thousand people long in the 1940, something similar was present at the end of the Soviet Era. Lines could take days.
Unofficial trading was very popular, as this was the only chance for USSR citizens to get common and basic items, and often the only way to get something from outside USSR.
As you can see, the Soviet Union couldn’t supply its citizens with even basic items, any diversity of food, and often there was just no food at all. But healtchcare and transportation were nice, when there weren’t millions killed in wars, repressions and concentration camps. Housing was nice until you had to share a flat with subpar living conditions with multiple (how many depending on the period of time considered) other families. Food was nice, except there often was no food and you had to wait in huge lines to get it.
And by the way, what should I call it but horrible stuff? This is probably the word that western propaganda would use to discredit someone/something, but I honestly have no other expression to describe it…
USSR attacking Poland, western Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland (there isn’t a separate wikipedia page for each one of these, but these are described in the wikipedia page of the Soviet Union and/or those respective countries)
Things like “nobody had their own private flats”, and “most families occupied a single tiny room”
My point was that after the mass starvation triggered by forcefully gathering people in rural areas into Kolhoz(s) and taking most of the food they’ve gathered, many fled into urban areas which naturally created overpopulation crisis (or rather lack of housing crisis), so most people were housed in cramped Khrushchyovkas which were very hastily built with no longevity in mind. I wasn’t able to find any wikipedia articles or official documentation about the living conditions, but I was able to find a ton of photos and a many memoirs of people living there. Suffice to say, it was not a pleasant experience. Now yes, I was way off saying that nobody had private flats, but still, for example in the 1980 in Leningrad 40 % of flats were communal. And at any time you living alone in a private flat could get unexpected flatmate(s)… |sorry, only in Russian|.
tells me the extent of your learning about the USSR stops at robert conquest, the black book of communism, and western movies about the USSR.
I honestly have no idea what those things are and I’ve never read/seen them. My knowledge is based on the history books I’ve read about it, memoirs I’ve read and official reports that I came across.
And by the way, if you don’t trust wikipedia, like all of the links that I provided include links to helpful resources, including Russian, moreover, a lot of them were written in the Soviet Union, so I suppose you could trust that.
I hope you would agree that the main purpose of any country is to make the best living conditions for its people. And while USSR did a great job at space race, arms race, technological race (in times when scientists weren’t discriminated against, arrested, shot, sent to Gulags in the 1930-1940 Stalin repressions (sorry, only in Russian). Oh yes, and the supressed scientific research. And yes, that part when T. D. Lisenko called Russian genetics pseudo scientists and genetics pseudo science, connecting them to propaganda of racism. There’s a nice book called “White Clothes” by Vladimir Dydintsev describing the events.) USSR failed miserably to provide basic things to its citizens and ensure proper living conditions. Oh and also, if communism was so great, why would she Soviet government put in place the Iron Curtain, forbidding almost anyone from leaving the country. And if the Soviet Union was such a great place to live in, why did the Soviet people try at all to escape the country? If communism was so great, the Soviet Union should not have imposed any censorship of printing and press? (primarily talking about the mid to later period of Soviet Union) The Soviet people would’ve just looked at how bad people live in capitalist countries and would’ve happily stayed in the Soviet Union.
And the most important source: asking the people who lived there. People either hate the Soviet Union because they’re aware of all the horrible things (sorry, don’t know how to phrase it otherwise), or they really like the Soviet Union, but because they’re living Russia now, which in many cases has waaay worse living conditions than the USSR. At least during the Soviet Era they had good (can’t deny that) quality healthcare, acceptable housing conditions closer to the later period of the USSR, and now all this is gone, with horrible healthcare, very bad housing conditions, tiny salaries of 150-350 dollars, even smaller pensions…
Anyway, USSR was a horrible place to live in (throughout most of its period and for most people). It resulted in a cruel and bloody dictatorship with the state being built on fear, lies and threats I’m sorry, but that is not a country that I would be eager to live in.
Also, why do you automatically label any person who disagrees with you a product of western propaganda? Is it not possible for a person to develop an opposing opinion having considered all the arguments? I’m not against socialism and communism altogether, I think that it should be the strategy for healthcare, partly housing (as it’s already been done in many European countries) for example. I just think that there have been examples in the history of the humanity demonstrating that communism is unachievable and it almost always resulted in horrible outcomes.
Food was nice, except there often was no food and you had to wait in huge lines to get it…As you can see, the Soviet Union couldn’t supply its citizens with even basic items, any diversity of food,
After the October revolution, the life expectancy for all age groups went up. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years.
Nope. Even the CIA found that the Soviet food supply was near-identical to the American food supply in terms of calories and protein
Even if we assume that this report is true (which is probably is, given that CIA had not stimuli to praise the Soviet Union), as indicated by the report itself, it only covered data from 1965 to 1984, which completely misses all the major famines occurring in the Soviet Union and the late Imperial Russia.
Contemporary American reports indicated that, by some standards, the Soviet diet was healthier than the American one.
That is the case because fast food (which is one of the major, if not the most important, factor contributing to unhealthy diet in the availability of healthy food) was practically non-existent in the USSR or was very bad.
After the October revolution, the life expectancy for all age groups went up. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years.
That is because peasants, which contributed over 80-90 % of the population even in the 1920s, were up until that moment practically slaves under Serfdom (even though it was lifted in 1861) receiving practically no healthcare, so naturally their life expectancy was pretty low, so even the smallest change to the availability of somewhat proper healthcare (which they kind of did get after in the Soviet Union) would result in great increase in life expectancy. So yes, you could argue that the early USSR had better life expectancy than a system with slavery. It got a lot better in the 1970s of course, when healthcare got a lot better, with a lot of sport propaganda and the average life expectancy got a lot higher, but it’s hard to estimate how much of that improvement was actually from improved healthcare and living conditions, and how much of that were ceased repressions, prisoners being released from Gulags and relative lack of wars.
Also, the people loved the USSR, which is why recent polls have shown most of the generation that lived under it want it back. 66% of Russians polled in 2015 want the USSR back.
Have you read what I wrote about Russian citizens about loving the Soviet Union (genuine question, I edited my comment later a few times with additional information)?
But aside from that, do you think these small improvements and positive sides in any way justify everything else?
Wow this is some bullshit. Wikipedia is not a source, it has a very pro-capitalist bias. And the thing about people starving (outside of wartime) is nothing but propaganda, even the CIA admitted that Russians got more calories per day than Americans.
As I’ve written in my comment, there a bunch of sources at the bottom of the Wikipedia page (yes, even sources that were written by Soviet citizens in the Soviet union).
And the thing about people starving (outside of wartime) is nothing but propaganda, even the CIA admitted that Russians got more calories per day than Americans.
Have you read that report? It only includes data gathered from 1965 to 1984, which is a period specifically known as Khrushchev Thaw, in which the life expectancy got a lot higher, healthcare and the housing situation improved. So data gathered from that period is not at all representative of the situation as a whole in the Soviet Union. Plus, a lot of the improvements happened majorly due to almost complete halt of repressions, release of political prisoners and prisoners from the Gulag camps, which given that tens of millions of people have experienced them, constituted such a big role in the life improvement overall across all people and average life expectancy.
And I’m not sure that we can call ending of repressions and release of all Gulag labor camp prisoners as a positive attribute of the Socialist system…
eem, what kind of sources do you need? Most of the stuff I mentioned is very well documented and a simple search on the internet will yield plenty of evidence…
Which exactly of those are you denying?
The article you linked describes a perfect and utopian version of communism that has never been achieved. The author does not take into account (at all) any of the horrible stuff that happened to the USSR citizens. Also, his main point hinges on how great the public healthcare, housing, transportation, science were, food etc. Well, no such luck here. Here is a nice wikipedia article documenting all the basic things deficits of the Soviet Union (unfortunately only in Russian). But here are some interesting extracts from it:
As you can see, the Soviet Union couldn’t supply its citizens with even basic items, any diversity of food, and often there was just no food at all. But healtchcare and transportation were nice, when there weren’t millions killed in wars, repressions and concentration camps. Housing was nice until you had to share a flat with subpar living conditions with multiple (how many depending on the period of time considered) other families. Food was nice, except there often was no food and you had to wait in huge lines to get it.
And by the way, what should I call it but horrible stuff? This is probably the word that western propaganda would use to discredit someone/something, but I honestly have no other expression to describe it…
~10 million casualties in the process of the Civil War
Collectivization
millions of people lived through and died in the Gulags
famine of the 1920s
famine of the 1930s
the political repressions of the 1930s-1950s
severe famine of the 1946-1947
USSR attacking Poland, western Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland (there isn’t a separate wikipedia page for each one of these, but these are described in the wikipedia page of the Soviet Union and/or those respective countries)
Deportation of Chechens and Ingush people
Repressions of Tatars
Antisemitism
what a great life did war prisoners had in the Soviet Union
supression of uprisings in Czechoslovakia in 1968
supression of uprisings in Hungary in 1956
And this by no means completes the list.
My point was that after the mass starvation triggered by forcefully gathering people in rural areas into Kolhoz(s) and taking most of the food they’ve gathered, many fled into urban areas which naturally created overpopulation crisis (or rather lack of housing crisis), so most people were housed in cramped Khrushchyovkas which were very hastily built with no longevity in mind. I wasn’t able to find any wikipedia articles or official documentation about the living conditions, but I was able to find a ton of photos and a many memoirs of people living there. Suffice to say, it was not a pleasant experience. Now yes, I was way off saying that nobody had private flats, but still, for example in the 1980 in Leningrad 40 % of flats were communal. And at any time you living alone in a private flat could get unexpected flatmate(s)… |sorry, only in Russian|.
I honestly have no idea what those things are and I’ve never read/seen them. My knowledge is based on the history books I’ve read about it, memoirs I’ve read and official reports that I came across.
And by the way, if you don’t trust wikipedia, like all of the links that I provided include links to helpful resources, including Russian, moreover, a lot of them were written in the Soviet Union, so I suppose you could trust that.
I hope you would agree that the main purpose of any country is to make the best living conditions for its people. And while USSR did a great job at space race, arms race, technological race (in times when scientists weren’t discriminated against, arrested, shot, sent to Gulags in the 1930-1940 Stalin repressions (sorry, only in Russian). Oh yes, and the supressed scientific research. And yes, that part when T. D. Lisenko called Russian genetics pseudo scientists and genetics pseudo science, connecting them to propaganda of racism. There’s a nice book called “White Clothes” by Vladimir Dydintsev describing the events.) USSR failed miserably to provide basic things to its citizens and ensure proper living conditions. Oh and also, if communism was so great, why would she Soviet government put in place the Iron Curtain, forbidding almost anyone from leaving the country. And if the Soviet Union was such a great place to live in, why did the Soviet people try at all to escape the country? If communism was so great, the Soviet Union should not have imposed any censorship of printing and press? (primarily talking about the mid to later period of Soviet Union) The Soviet people would’ve just looked at how bad people live in capitalist countries and would’ve happily stayed in the Soviet Union.
And the most important source: asking the people who lived there. People either hate the Soviet Union because they’re aware of all the horrible things (sorry, don’t know how to phrase it otherwise), or they really like the Soviet Union, but because they’re living Russia now, which in many cases has waaay worse living conditions than the USSR. At least during the Soviet Era they had good (can’t deny that) quality healthcare, acceptable housing conditions closer to the later period of the USSR, and now all this is gone, with horrible healthcare, very bad housing conditions, tiny salaries of 150-350 dollars, even smaller pensions…
Anyway, USSR was a horrible place to live in (throughout most of its period and for most people). It resulted in a cruel and bloody dictatorship with the state being built on fear, lies and threats I’m sorry, but that is not a country that I would be eager to live in.
Also, why do you automatically label any person who disagrees with you a product of western propaganda? Is it not possible for a person to develop an opposing opinion having considered all the arguments? I’m not against socialism and communism altogether, I think that it should be the strategy for healthcare, partly housing (as it’s already been done in many European countries) for example. I just think that there have been examples in the history of the humanity demonstrating that communism is unachievable and it almost always resulted in horrible outcomes.
Nope. Even the CIA found that the Soviet food supply was near-identical to the American food supply in terms of calories and protein. Contemporary American reports indicated that, by some standards, the Soviet diet was healthier than the American one.
Calories per person eventually passed the US by the 1960s:
Since you seem to love wikipedia as a source, here’s one even they have to admit:
Also, the people loved the USSR, which is why recent polls have shown most of the generation that lived under it want it back. 66% of Russians polled in 2015 want the USSR back.
Even if we assume that this report is true (which is probably is, given that CIA had not stimuli to praise the Soviet Union), as indicated by the report itself, it only covered data from 1965 to 1984, which completely misses all the major famines occurring in the Soviet Union and the late Imperial Russia.
That is the case because fast food (which is one of the major, if not the most important, factor contributing to unhealthy diet in the availability of healthy food) was practically non-existent in the USSR or was very bad.
That is because peasants, which contributed over 80-90 % of the population even in the 1920s, were up until that moment practically slaves under Serfdom (even though it was lifted in 1861) receiving practically no healthcare, so naturally their life expectancy was pretty low, so even the smallest change to the availability of somewhat proper healthcare (which they kind of did get after in the Soviet Union) would result in great increase in life expectancy. So yes, you could argue that the early USSR had better life expectancy than a system with slavery. It got a lot better in the 1970s of course, when healthcare got a lot better, with a lot of sport propaganda and the average life expectancy got a lot higher, but it’s hard to estimate how much of that improvement was actually from improved healthcare and living conditions, and how much of that were ceased repressions, prisoners being released from Gulags and relative lack of wars.
Have you read what I wrote about Russian citizens about loving the Soviet Union (genuine question, I edited my comment later a few times with additional information)?
But aside from that, do you think these small improvements and positive sides in any way justify everything else?
Wow this is some bullshit. Wikipedia is not a source, it has a very pro-capitalist bias. And the thing about people starving (outside of wartime) is nothing but propaganda, even the CIA admitted that Russians got more calories per day than Americans.
I don’t really know what else to add…
As I’ve written in my comment, there a bunch of sources at the bottom of the Wikipedia page (yes, even sources that were written by Soviet citizens in the Soviet union).
Have you read that report? It only includes data gathered from 1965 to 1984, which is a period specifically known as Khrushchev Thaw, in which the life expectancy got a lot higher, healthcare and the housing situation improved. So data gathered from that period is not at all representative of the situation as a whole in the Soviet Union. Plus, a lot of the improvements happened majorly due to almost complete halt of repressions, release of political prisoners and prisoners from the Gulag camps, which given that tens of millions of people have experienced them, constituted such a big role in the life improvement overall across all people and average life expectancy.
And I’m not sure that we can call ending of repressions and release of all Gulag labor camp prisoners as a positive attribute of the Socialist system…