How do new means of production come to be? Like, if a community really wanted a unicycle repair shop, how would that get started? How would it be decided that we use resources for that shop instead of, say, a pogo stick repair shop? Would that be up to a local government (or some other governing body)? Honest question.
My country used to have communism. Niche shops like this barely ever started as small businesses and instead usually started out as specialized departments of large all-encompassing state corporations. Instead of there being a company that specialized in making furniture, the furniture would be made by the logging company. The company that ran a chemical plant would directly sell shampoos, paints, toothpaste, fertillizer, etc. It cut out middle men but the products were usually crap quality because it couldn’t focus on each product individually. This stifled progress. My dad wanted to learn programming (this was the late 80s) but because the government was too oldschool to open a computer science degree programme, the only way to get near a computer was to go to a university that specialized in mining and take a programme in mining machine automation.
On the flipside, it’s not illegal anywhere in capitalismland™ for the workers to own the means of production. It’s called a cooperative. Get a bunch of your comrades together, sign a few legal documents, pool your money for a downpayment, get a loan. Badabing, badaboom, “communist” unicycle repair shop.
(The bank might however disagree with you that a unicycle repair shop is a viable business venture in most cities, but hey in my book that still beats a Central Planning Bureau telling you “Nyet, no-one needs unicycles, however we need you at the mines, glory to Arstotzka!”).
I was not talking about liberalism… ? Cooperatives work. The statutes can say whatever they want about wealth distribution as long as the company keeps paying its creditors.
Saying “It works until a guy with too much money decides it must stops” is just a huge self-own coming from a communist, because if the internal and democratic redistribution of wealth of a co-op stops working… well capitalism ain’t anything to go with that, that’s just communism falling in on itself and (as happened with all real communist states) turning into an authoritarian kleptocracy.
Still, overall co-ops work pretty well. Lots of banks are famously co-ops (i.e. credit unions). Obviously they haven’t solved the problems of greed or poverty, but that’s only surprising if you think that “seizing the means of production” is the only condition required for complete emancipation of the proletariat (which one would only think if they had never taken a single look at the history of the USSR).
On the flipside, it’s not illegal anywhere in capitalismland™
It’s also not illegal in capitalismland™ to use economic chicanery to outcompete and either destroy or swallow any productive organization that doesn’t sacrifice everything to the profit principle - which might explain why there is no need for it to make co-ops illegal.
Bad management is not the the specialty of communism. In fact, this is a governance problem: is it lead by an idiot and how can people change the lead to solve this problem. Capitalism has this problem currently with governments and companies directions totally unable to do anything about climate change and wealth inequalities.
People always mistaken dictature or oligarchy with communism unfortunately.
Well if the comminity really wanted a unicycle repair shop everyone chips in to build the shop, and gets the equipment or the state directly decides you need a unicycle repair shop.
Although you and a few of your buddies could decide to make a unicycle repair co-operative. You don’t have enough money so. You go to the credit union to get extra starting funds, you then use these funds to contract out the building of the shop as you are unicycle repairers by trade. You then get all the equipment and run it as a co-operative.
There are many ways to run a co-operative and in the begining you and your friends are probably going to split the profits directly using your equal shares to recieve divedends. If it takes off and you start needing to hire people, you may start having salary bands instead so everyone will always make X amount of money working with you depending on their position, but will also make a variable amount from dividends depending on the unicycle repair excess profits and might also have a say in how things are run.
This is a more general left-wing idea which can happen in many left-wing, socialist, and communist societies, rather than just communist.
Interesting point you’ve raised, however, political debates tend to be complex and nuanced - there are many different interpretations and perspectives to consider.
That said, one critique of communism might be that it seeks to erase class distinctions, which some argue can unintentionally create a new type of class struggle between the leaders and general populace. If not carefully managed, this could potentially lead to an authoritarian governing structure that suppresses information to keep the public in compliance. This, however, is not an inherent attribute of the ideology, but rather a possible outcome if not carefully implemented.
It’s also important to remember that many political models have faced obstacles and challenges throughout history. It’s about learning from these experiences and evolving. So rather than considering any model as destined to fail, we should take a look at their successes and failures to shape more balanced and equitable systems.
But let’s not forget, we’re here in a meme community, so let’s enjoy with some humor and creativity. If you have any lighter topics or memes to share, feel free to join in! This place is intended as a friendly space for fun and laughter. Thanks!
Like, if a community really wanted a unicycle repair shop, how would that get started?
Pretty much the same way a community would start a co-op right now.
Would that be up to a local government (or some other governing body)?
Public participation, of course. The community would form councils, where people would collectively decide whether this is a good idea or not. That literally what the word soviet means - councils of people making decisions (which is why the Bolsheviks hijacked them and turned the word into a cruel joke).
So, a representative democracy, like we have in the US. But hasn’t it been shown that elected leaders do not actually represent the people, just their own interests?
As an example, the mayor of my town has approved the funding for thousands of new homes, destroying the natural surroundings in the process. No one likes it except the builders. She’ll be mayor next reelection. She’ll continue to enjoy lavish dinners and vacations paid for by the construction companies.
Communism meant that there were equal people and some more equal than others. If you have convinced the right people they got funds to do things. But it is highly burocratic and slow unless instructions come from above. Communism also meant that everyone capable of working must work so they made up many-many bullshit jobs where people just spend time.
Very true of the criticisms of the USSR, to be sure. What you have to remember is that the USSR had a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party system implementing the so-called “dictatorship of the proletariat” in order to, at some point in the future, achieve “true” communism. The USSR was intended more as a transition phase than a permanent form of government & economy. For many reasons, it did not work out.
How do new means of production come to be? Like, if a community really wanted a unicycle repair shop, how would that get started? How would it be decided that we use resources for that shop instead of, say, a pogo stick repair shop? Would that be up to a local government (or some other governing body)? Honest question.
My country used to have communism. Niche shops like this barely ever started as small businesses and instead usually started out as specialized departments of large all-encompassing state corporations. Instead of there being a company that specialized in making furniture, the furniture would be made by the logging company. The company that ran a chemical plant would directly sell shampoos, paints, toothpaste, fertillizer, etc. It cut out middle men but the products were usually crap quality because it couldn’t focus on each product individually. This stifled progress. My dad wanted to learn programming (this was the late 80s) but because the government was too oldschool to open a computer science degree programme, the only way to get near a computer was to go to a university that specialized in mining and take a programme in mining machine automation.
On the flipside, it’s not illegal anywhere in capitalismland™ for the workers to own the means of production. It’s called a cooperative. Get a bunch of your comrades together, sign a few legal documents, pool your money for a downpayment, get a loan. Badabing, badaboom, “communist” unicycle repair shop.
(The bank might however disagree with you that a unicycle repair shop is a viable business venture in most cities, but hey in my book that still beats a Central Planning Bureau telling you “Nyet, no-one needs unicycles, however we need you at the mines, glory to Arstotzka!”).
Agreed. Actually a capitalism with cooperatives is the flavor of capitalism that I support.
I believe you should look up market socialism if that interests you.
It works until a guy with too much money decides it must stops. That’s the problem with capitalism: it basically recreates feudalism.
The biggest question is who gets the power. A dictatorial state or an oligarchy of capitalists is the same.
Liberalism won against USSR because they restrained themselves just long enough for USSR to collapse.
I was not talking about liberalism… ? Cooperatives work. The statutes can say whatever they want about wealth distribution as long as the company keeps paying its creditors.
Saying “It works until a guy with too much money decides it must stops” is just a huge self-own coming from a communist, because if the internal and democratic redistribution of wealth of a co-op stops working… well capitalism ain’t anything to go with that, that’s just communism falling in on itself and (as happened with all real communist states) turning into an authoritarian kleptocracy.
Still, overall co-ops work pretty well. Lots of banks are famously co-ops (i.e. credit unions). Obviously they haven’t solved the problems of greed or poverty, but that’s only surprising if you think that “seizing the means of production” is the only condition required for complete emancipation of the proletariat (which one would only think if they had never taken a single look at the history of the USSR).
It’s also not illegal in capitalismland™ to use economic chicanery to outcompete and either destroy or swallow any productive organization that doesn’t sacrifice everything to the profit principle - which might explain why there is no need for it to make co-ops illegal.
Bad management is not the the specialty of communism. In fact, this is a governance problem: is it lead by an idiot and how can people change the lead to solve this problem. Capitalism has this problem currently with governments and companies directions totally unable to do anything about climate change and wealth inequalities.
People always mistaken dictature or oligarchy with communism unfortunately.
Well if the comminity really wanted a unicycle repair shop everyone chips in to build the shop, and gets the equipment or the state directly decides you need a unicycle repair shop.
Although you and a few of your buddies could decide to make a unicycle repair co-operative. You don’t have enough money so. You go to the credit union to get extra starting funds, you then use these funds to contract out the building of the shop as you are unicycle repairers by trade. You then get all the equipment and run it as a co-operative.
There are many ways to run a co-operative and in the begining you and your friends are probably going to split the profits directly using your equal shares to recieve divedends. If it takes off and you start needing to hire people, you may start having salary bands instead so everyone will always make X amount of money working with you depending on their position, but will also make a variable amount from dividends depending on the unicycle repair excess profits and might also have a say in how things are run.
This is a more general left-wing idea which can happen in many left-wing, socialist, and communist societies, rather than just communist.
deleted by creator
Hi Xpo3@lemmy.world,
Interesting point you’ve raised, however, political debates tend to be complex and nuanced - there are many different interpretations and perspectives to consider.
That said, one critique of communism might be that it seeks to erase class distinctions, which some argue can unintentionally create a new type of class struggle between the leaders and general populace. If not carefully managed, this could potentially lead to an authoritarian governing structure that suppresses information to keep the public in compliance. This, however, is not an inherent attribute of the ideology, but rather a possible outcome if not carefully implemented.
It’s also important to remember that many political models have faced obstacles and challenges throughout history. It’s about learning from these experiences and evolving. So rather than considering any model as destined to fail, we should take a look at their successes and failures to shape more balanced and equitable systems.
But let’s not forget, we’re here in a meme community, so let’s enjoy with some humor and creativity. If you have any lighter topics or memes to share, feel free to join in! This place is intended as a friendly space for fun and laughter. Thanks!
-bot@lemmings.world
Did ChatGPT just tell us to kindly fuck off and lighten up?
Also I am not a communist.
Pretty much the same way a community would start a co-op right now.
Public participation, of course. The community would form councils, where people would collectively decide whether this is a good idea or not. That literally what the word soviet means - councils of people making decisions (which is why the Bolsheviks hijacked them and turned the word into a cruel joke).
Well if the state provides funds based on need, we don’t need unicycles or pogo sticks at all so we just wouldn’t have them.
The state is not qualified to decide whether someone needs a pogo stick - neither are billionaire parasites.
deleted by creator
Honest question. How do we trust the state? For example: the state determines we need more coal/oil power plants and no solar energy.
deleted by creator
So, a representative democracy, like we have in the US. But hasn’t it been shown that elected leaders do not actually represent the people, just their own interests?
As an example, the mayor of my town has approved the funding for thousands of new homes, destroying the natural surroundings in the process. No one likes it except the builders. She’ll be mayor next reelection. She’ll continue to enjoy lavish dinners and vacations paid for by the construction companies.
deleted by creator
Production lines/robots, how else?
Communism meant that there were equal people and some more equal than others. If you have convinced the right people they got funds to do things. But it is highly burocratic and slow unless instructions come from above. Communism also meant that everyone capable of working must work so they made up many-many bullshit jobs where people just spend time.
Ahhh you just talking with extremists from another pov, dw.
Don’t get why you’re downvoted. Probably all the people who’ve never actually lived in communist states.
Very true of the criticisms of the USSR, to be sure. What you have to remember is that the USSR had a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party system implementing the so-called “dictatorship of the proletariat” in order to, at some point in the future, achieve “true” communism. The USSR was intended more as a transition phase than a permanent form of government & economy. For many reasons, it did not work out.
For many reasons that anarchists had perfectly predicted long before the Russian revolution, of course.
No, it doesn’t. If that’s what you think, it means Animal Farm went straight over your head.