• TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      Not if you are a socialist or communist…you should really look up who founded, funds, and runs the Georgian Dream party.

      Really makes you wonder why the author of this particular piece of “journalism” decided to omit the role of the most powerful man in Georgian politics in the last 30 years.

      • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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        5 months ago

        I’m not familiar at all with Georgian politics, but if what you say is true, I do kind of agree that the author should have included some discussion on the matter. That being said, I don’t see how this makes it not “great news”. Regardless of who holds power in Georgia, do you think that having better relations with Russia, its neighbor with which they share a border, will be a bad thing for Georgians?

        • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          The author is criticizing the rose revolution, Ivanishvili funded the rose revolution. Ivanishvili represents like half of Georgia’s GDP. This isn’t about Georgians befriending their neighbors, it’s about ivanishvili establishing a regime.

          • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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            5 months ago

            As others have said, the article is about Georgia’s decision to strengthen its relationship with Russia at the expense of its relationship with the west. The rose revolution is important to understand Georgia’s current position on this.

            Has IvanishviIi not already established a regime? In what way does improving relations with Russia allow him to further consolidate his power? While I certainly don’t support oligarchy, Georgia’s struggle against western imperialism is surely worth critical support.

            • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              Has IvanishviIi not already established a regime? In what way does improving relations with Russia allow him to further consolidate his power?

              I mean part of critical support is actually evaluating what you are supporting. If you had, you would know that ivanishvili has a long history of playing both sides to further his own wealth and power. However, he ultimately is a reactionary puppeteer who always lands on the side that lets him keep his grip on Georgian politics.

              This is just a play to further establish his regime with authoritarian means. He is hoping that if he can make the west fear that he will switch sides, they will let him get away with anything.

              • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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                5 months ago

                I’m supporting the decision of the Georgian state to improve relations with Russia, its neigbour and the regional power. I support this because improved relations can lead to security and trade agreements that improve the material conditions of the Georgian working class. If the state ultimately backs away from this decision due to it being a ploy to gain leverage over the west, then I will absolutely be critical of such a move. On the other hand, I can imagine how following through can be beneficial for the ruling class as well and I don’t think that your conclusion is a guaranteed outcome.

              • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                5 months ago

                However, he ultimately is a reactionary puppeteer who always lands on the side that lets him keep his grip on Georgian politics.

                Well yeah, who wouldn’t in that position? And so why exactly wouldn’t such a person choose to realign back towards Russia, or at the very least hedge their bets and try to play both sides, considering that the West has been orchestrating protests and riots aimed at overthrowing this government and Russia has not? This is pretty elementary stuff.

                Once a puppet outlives their usefulness for the US they usually discard and replace them. If that puppet is smart and has any self-preservation instinct they will see it coming and know when it’s time to switch sides.

                The fact that such a switch is even possible is what’s interesting here. Twenty years ago the US was the only game in town. Now no longer.

      • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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        5 months ago

        Not if you are a socialist or communist…you should really look up who founded, funds, and runs the Georgian Dream party.

        Why wouldnt a socialist or communist at least tactifully support a man who was alive during the USSRs soviet era, who wants to normalize relationships with a country alligned with communist ones? (Russia > China)

        The EU is clearly not friendly to communists, half the countries there ban communists from running!

        • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          Why wouldnt a socialist or communist at least tactifully support a man who was alive during the USSRs soviet era

          He is one of the “seven bankers” employed by Yeltsin to destroy and sell the communist government… He literally has made billions destroying communism.

          The EU is clearly not friendly to communists, half the countries there ban communists from running!

          And who do you think was the person most responsible for Georgia joining the EU?

          • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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            5 months ago

            He is one of the “seven bankers” employed by Yeltsin to destroy and sell the communist government… He literally has made billions destroying communism.

            This is greviances from the 90s, im taking the actions as they are now. We can agree Putin, this billionare are likely opportunistic captialist butchers while still seeing this as a move that benefits communists.

            And who do you think was the person most responsible for Georgia joining the EU?

            Im taking the actions as they are now, even if for cynical reasons breaking up the EU further and moving towards a direction that communism is permitted, and of which the most powerfull member of that bloc is a communist country is progressive.

            • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              This is greviances from the 90s, im taking the actions as they are now. We can agree Putin, this billionare are likely opportunistic captialist butchers while still seeing this as a move that benefits communists.

              How? The communist/socialist parties in Georgia are part of the opposition groups opposed to the Georgian dream party.

              I don’t buy into the false dichotomy that anything that seemingly opposes western imperialism is automatically a win for communist. Nothing is as black and white as theory supposes it to be, and we have to be vigilant about empowering the kleptocracy that are so common among political bodies run by the rich.

              breaking up the EU further and moving towards a direction that communism is permitted

              Right, but what makes you think they are actually going to leave the EU? He’s just emulating countries like Hungary, turkey, and India, who are utilizing geopolitical schisms to consolidate authoritarian regimes while staying plugged into the western capital apparatus.

              • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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                5 months ago

                Right, but what makes you think they are actually going to leave the EU? He’s just emulating countries like Hungary, turkey, and India, who are utilizing geopolitical schisms to consolidate authoritarian regimes while staying plugged into the western capital apparatus.

                Im not sure, if they do would you eat your hat and support it?

                Do the communists in Hungary support removal from the EU also?

                I don’t buy into the false dichotomy that anything that seemingly opposes western imperialism is automatically a win for communist.

                Breaking up a bloc that was setup to counter communist infulence, is in fact good.

                • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Im not sure, if they do would you eat your hat and support it?

                  If ivanishvili has actually changed his stripes and this wasn’t a conservative ploy to establish an authoritarian kleptocracy, I would gladly eat my hat and yours. But that would be as likely as bill gates donating all his money to Linux developers to create open source programming.

                  Do the communists in Hungary support removal from the EU also?

                  Hard to tell since Orban has basically done all he can to remove opposition parties. I don’t have a problem with nations decoupling from NATO or the EU, what I have a problem with is empowering social and fiscally conservative political parties who claim to want to decouple as a way to consolidate an authoritarian kleptocracy.

                  Breaking up a bloc that was setup to counter communist infulence, is in fact good.

                  Right, but who has actually broken away from the bloc? Kinda seems like they’re just utilizing that as a scapegoat to consolidate power without ever actually breaking up the bloc.

                  • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                    5 months ago

                    a conservative ploy to establish an authoritarian kleptocracy

                    Not sure why you always have to specify “conservative”. Would it be better if it was liberals doing it?

                    And “authoritarian kleptocracy”? How much liberal media have you been consuming? They always love using these terms when refering to Russia but they never actually explain why Russia’s capitalism is so much worse than the West’s. Don’t western states have police that they use to crack down on serious dissent? (Have you not been paying attention to the Palestine protests?) Don’t their capitalists bribe the government and steal from the working class?

                    This isn’t “authoritarian kleptocracy” (or whatever other newspeak liberal media comes up with next so they don’t have to reveal their orientalism/chauvinism and just say what they mean which is “eastern barbarism”). It’s just capitalism doing what capitalism always does.

              • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                5 months ago

                The communist/socialist parties in Georgia are part of the opposition groups

                So “communists” are aligned with western backed and funded opposition groups? That’s kind of sus don’t you think? I mean come on, it’s gotta raise some red flags for you about what kind of “socialist parties” these are that associate with liberal NGOs and participate in color revolution attempts.

                He’s just emulating countries like Hungary, turkey, and India, who are utilizing geopolitical schisms to consolidate authoritarian regimes

                Again with this word “authoritarian”. Funny how it’s always used against governments the West doesn’t like. It’s a very unserious word used by unserious people.

                Now, the undoubtedly reactionary nature of these governments aside, isn’t it objectively a good thing that they are behaving that way? That they are undermining the western hegemonistic order for their own selfish interests? Hungary for instance has been a real thorn in the side of the pro-Ukraine warmongers in the EU and NATO. As much as i hate Orban, it’s been frankly pretty entertaining to watch. Don’t you want dissent and disunity in the imperialist camp? I certainly do.

                • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  So “communists” are aligned with western backed and funded opposition groups? That’s kind of sus don’t you think? I mean come on, it’s gotta raise some red flags for you about what kind of “socialist parties” these are that associate with liberal NGOs and participate in color revolution attempts.

                  Maybe learn about the politics of the state before you make your judgments? The communist party is a small part of the coalition of parties attempting to block the Georgian dream party. I highly doubt they are receiving any help from any foreign NGO, they align themselves with those who do because they understand the threat that ivanishvili poses.

                  NGOs and participate in color revolution attempts.

                  Lol, you do know that the Georgian dream party is made up by the leadership of the rose revolution, right?

                  Again with this word “authoritarian”. Funny how it’s always used against governments the West doesn’t like. It’s a very unserious word used by unserious people.

                  Be mad at the dictionary I guess? I don’t control how governments arrange their hierarchical structures. Also, the US is friends with plenty of authoritarian countries.

                  Now, the undoubtedly reactionary nature of these governments aside, isn’t it objectively a good thing that they are behaving that way?

                  Not for the Georgian people…

                  That they are undermining the western hegemonistic order for their own selfish interests?

                  I think that’s a highly reductive interpretation that relies on oversimplified concepts of global politics, and political language.

                  Hungary for instance has been a real thorn in the side of the pro-Ukraine warmongers in the EU and NATO.

                  Have they really stopped anything, has this benefited Russia or the people of Hungary in any meaningful way? Also, I’d hardly call countries defending against an invasion the “warmongers” of the situation.

                  Don’t you want dissent and disunity in the imperialist camp? I certainly do.

                  Which imperialist camp?

                  • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                    5 months ago

                    The communist party is a small part of the coalition of parties attempting to block the Georgian dream party.

                    So if it’s acceptable for those “communists” to join forces with western backed color revolution agents, then surely it is not a big deal for other communists to critically support the Georgian government in its suppressing of said color revolutionists and reconciliation with Russia. Since we have abandoned any pretense of moral purity anyway…

                    I’d hardly call countries defending against an invasion the “warmongers” of the situation.

                    If that’s what you think is happening you haven’t been paying attention. You’re just regurgitating the western mainstream media’s propaganda narrative, which as usual is the exact opposite of reality.

                    Yes they are the warmongers, they are the ones who purposely engineered the conflict and who continue to needlessly prolong it to Ukraine’s detriment, all while their reckless and desperate escalations risk widening the conflict and put us all in danger.

                    They are not defending anything, they are merely using Ukraine to try and harm Russia. When just like Georgia, Ukraine’s interests would be best served by refusing to continue to be a western puppet and mending ties with Russia instead, that’s just a fact.

                    Have they really stopped anything, has this benefited Russia or the people of Hungary in any meaningful way?

                    So far they’ve prevented Hungary being drawn into to the conflict. Hungary has wisely refused to send weapons to the conflict zone, recognizing that by doing so it only prolongs the conflict and gets more Ukrainians and Russians killed.

                    Of course it has benefited the people of Hungary. While other NATO and EU countries ruin their economies and impoverish their people with anti-Russian sanctions and billions flushed down the toilet in the corrupt black hole that is Ukraine, Hungary has looked out for its own people’s interest and kept energy prices and inflation low.

                    When other NATO countries send their soldiers to die in Ukraine, Hungarian soldiers will still be safe in their own country. And when Russia strikes back at other NATO countries that have made the mistake of making themselves a co-belligerent in the conflict, Hungary will remain untouched.

                    Turns out having good relations with and refusing to be drawn into conflict against a nearby major power is good for your people. I know, what a shocker!

                    Which imperialist camp?

                    There is only one imperialist camp

              • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                5 months ago

                Right, but what makes you think they are actually going to leave the EU?

                Are we still talking about Georgia or are you referring to a different country now? Is this a hypothetical scenario in an alternate reality?

                Because in this reality Georgia isn’t in the EU, never has been, and, inshallah, never will be.

            • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              Yeah… How did that turn out?

              I don’t particularly believe that Russia is anything but the first western state to evolve from capitalism to an authoritarian kleptocracy. They aren’t trying to end western hegemony, they’re just trying to change where they’re at on the ladder.

              How does it materially help workers if Russia does fight off NATO? It’s just exchanging one capitalist hierarchy for an even more authoritarian capitalist hierarchy. Their resources and labour are still being extracted from their country into the hands of billionaires.

                • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Correct. The natural progression of late stage capitalism is a move further towards authoritarian capitalist kleptocracy.

                  How do we tell if a nation is antithetical towards western imperialism, or if we’re just witnessing the beast eating its own tail?

                  I would argue that we should look at the material motivations, and how capital is distributed within the nation. But I guess the enemy of my enemy is more catchy…

              • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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                5 months ago

                How does it materially help workers if Russia does fight off NATO? It’s just exchanging one capitalist hierarchy for an even more authoritarian capitalist hierarchy. Their resources and labour are still being extracted from their country into the hands of billionaires.

                The enemy of our enemy is our friend, it is as simple as that. When the west focuses it’s resources on fighting Russia, it gives the rest of the world breathing room, thus we have seen progressive movements grow in many places that would’ve been immediately crushed under other circumstances.

                • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  The enemy of our enemy is our friend, it is as simple as that.

                  I mean that’s a nice saying, but I’d hardly say it’s been proven over the course of History. It didn’t work out very well for the native Americans.

                  When the west focuses it’s resources on fighting Russia, it gives the rest of the world breathing room

                  Or it just empowers the capital holders of the military industrial complex and makes America even more aggressive. I hardly think America would be a more agreeable nation under a wartime economy.

                  we have seen progressive movements grow in many places that would’ve been immediately crushed under other circumstances.

                  Examples? Because in the last 2 decades we’ve seen a huge upswing of conservative authoritarian governments being established across the globe.

                  • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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                    5 months ago

                    I mean that’s a nice saying, but I’d hardly say it’s been proven over the course of History. It didn’t work out very well for the native Americans.

                    There are 2 sides to this coin, and in bad faith, you use the side that supports your views. The americans also used the very same strategy, but it worked out for them, what is the difference here? That the natives did not identify the americans as the primary contradiction. There are many other examples, like Chinese civil war, the korean war, vietnam war, etc… The point is to identify the primary contradiction, which in this case is american imperialism.

                    Or it just empowers the capital holders of the military industrial complex and makes America even more aggressive. I hardly think America would be a more agreeable nation under a wartime economy.

                    And you’re completely wrong, the decline of american hegemony is forcing them to give away concesions. Countries all around the world are joining BRICS, Yemen gets away with attacking Israel shipments, african nations are kicking out french and american troops of their countries, even Saudi Arabia is slowly dropping the petrodollar policy!!, something that was immediately punished with bombs in the past (lybia, irak, iran), americas “backyard” is now full of leftists goverments, etc… Its quite obvious that america is losing control.

                    Examples? Because in the last 2 decades we’ve seen a huge upswing of conservative authoritarian governments being established across the globe.

                    As i mentioned, americas “backyard”. Heck look at Mexico left party completely destroying the neoliberal parties and the US can’t do anything more than putting some NYT hit pieces here and there 😅

              • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml
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                5 months ago

                I don’t particularly believe that Russia is anything but the first western state to evolve from capitalism to an authoritarian kleptocracy.

                The U.S.?

          • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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            5 months ago

            who do you think was the person most responsible for Georgia joining the EU?

            Georgia isn’t in the EU. I think you’re a bit confused mate.

      • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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        5 months ago

        This article omits that sort of discussion because it is not relevant. This article is about Georgia mending its relations with Russia, which is objectively a good thing for both countries and a defeat for the US empire.

        • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          Georgia mending its relations with Russia

          And who is controlling the political party who is “mending it’s relations with Russia”? The same man who funded the rose revolution, the same man who happened to buy up the industry of Georgia afterwards?

          This isn’t about geopolitics, it’s about a billionaire trying to set up a dictatorship.

          • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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            5 months ago

            This isn’t about geopolitics

            This is about geopolitics, that’s exactly the point of the article. You seem very fixated on this one individual but there are larger forces at play and there is a bigger geopolitical context that this fits into.

            If bourgeois interests that once supported Georgia’s submission to US diktat and aggressive anti-Russian policies are now turning in a different direction and in doing so are daring to draw the ire of the US empire that is a sign of which way the geopolitical winds are blowing.

            It means that something has fundamentally changed in the global balance of power and various actors around the world are reorienting according to what they perceive as being in their best interest.

            • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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              You seem very fixated on this one individual but there are larger forces at play and there is a bigger geopolitical context that this fits into.

              There is literally no player larger than ivanishvili in the region… He has controlled Georgian politics for the last 30 years. Which is why it is so academically dishonest to leave him out of the article, especially when the author was blaming his cronies for Georgia’s contemporary issues.

              bourgeois interests that once supported Georgia’s submission to US diktat and aggressive anti-Russian policies are now turning in a different direction and in doing so are daring to draw the ire of the US empire that is a sign of which way the geopolitical winds are blowing.

              Right, but we’ve already gone through this before with ivanishvili. He has a long established history of supporting whatever side further empowers his grip over Georgian politics and economics. He funded the rose revolution, then threw the leaders of the rose revolution under the bus, and then established his own neolib political party. Jumping between supporting Russia and the west as it suits his interest.

              He is never going to detach himself from western interest, this recent shift is just a bartering chip. He is hoping that if he can scare the west into thinking he is aligning with Russia that they will allow him to do whatever he wants in Georgia.

              • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                5 months ago

                He has a long established history of supporting whatever side further empowers his grip over Georgian politics and economics.

                And currently the West doesn’t seem to be offering that support. They seem to be doing the opposite by organizing protests aimed at toppling the government.

      • SadArtemis🏳️‍⚧️@lemmygrad.ml
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        5 months ago

        Hell, never mind “Georgian Dream,” I’d even (very critically) support a “Georgian National Socialist” party in the sole and specific action of breaking away from the western imperial bloc (which is the entire cause of Georgia’s political issues to begin with- not that a Nazi party would likely break with their western sweethearts to begin with, to join all the non-white, non-western nations in anti-imperialist struggle at that).

        It seems you can’t understand- as your other comments clearly suggest- that we’re dealing with a global world system here, and that imperialism, as the highest stage of capitalism and its most abhorrent, destructive, and explicitly genocidal one is what we’re dealing with. That you fall for the “AuThORitARian” smear in your comments below (without recognizing that the most authoritarian system imaginable, is that of the imperialist bloc against the global democracy which is emerging, however problematic its various actors may be), as well as your clear lack of genuine understanding for the actual realities and constraints of the western military-industrial complex (if you can’t realize the US has been in a neoliberal equivalent of a “wartime economy” for decades, for instance- and if you can’t recognize that the MIC has been running the show for a long while now, and manufactured the current Ukraine crisis, and would simply manufacture some other crisis if that hadn’t been possible) is very telling.

        • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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          5 months ago

          Hell, never mind “Georgian Dream,” I’d even (very critically) support a “Georgian National Socialist” party in the sole and specific action of breaking away from the western imperial bloc.

          you said what i didn’t have the guts to say.
          zoidberg salute 2