Leftist Infighting: A community dedicated to allowing leftists to vent their frustrations
SPGB takes a shortcut in response to ‘Socialism destroyed Venezuela.’
Okay, first of all, with the arguable exception of trolling, there is really no need to bother engaging with confirmed antisocialists (especially billionaires). It doesn’t matter how many sources you offer if they have no interest in checking one for more than ten seconds. You can’t force or compel them to be interested in learning; they have to hit rock‐bottom first, then—when they have little or nothing to lose and it almost seems like life couldn’t possibly get any worse—they’ll be more open to socialism. For now, you are better off doing something else. Twoth, the response ‘Venezuela isn’t socialist’, while agreeable in principle, just isn’t a very productive or interesting response to offer. The accusation ‘socialism destroyed Venezuela’ is wrong not simply because the BRV is presocialist. It’s also wrong because it ignores **why** leftist politicians assumed power in the Venezuela in the first place, and it is wrong because it ignores the devastation that antisocialists—both from within and without—have been afflicting upon it for decades. The sanctions, guarimbas, the [destruction](https://i.imgur.com/fSqgZVO.png) [of foodstuff](https://i.imgur.com/CUlqS6Q.png), and so on—these should not be ignored, trivialized, or misjudged as ‘our responsibility’, and repeatedly doing either only encourages everybody to think of antisocialists as unaccountable for their atrocities. Lastly (and call me an ultraleftist if you’d like), I’d argue that the definition of socialism that we should prefer is the negation of capitalism, that is to say, the abolition of generalized commodity production, the law of value, and capital. Seizing the means of production is good, of course, but is it enough to prevent exploitation? I’m afraid that the answer is no, not in a market economy. I don’t want to sound too harsh on the SPGB, as they’re clearly well intentioned and probably nice people who belong to the same lower classes as we do, but replying critically to the upper classes is like trying to stop a Magach with a stone.

Not trying to bad-talk another community...
But Jesus fucking Christ the Genzedong/genhoxha discord is giving me huge reddit vibes. I understand that it has a more direct connection to the subreddit proper so it makes sense... but I don't even want to call some of these people comrades. Lemmygrad seems pretty good at formenting actual discussion even if I roll my eyes at the occasional back-handed comment. The discorders are seemingly ready to leap at each others' throats over the mildest criticisms, including going so far as to extrapolate the absolute worst conclusions they can imagine without allowing the other person a chance to elaborate. Also, for such a seemingly thorough vetting process, there definitely exists a clique of people with nothing but disdain for AES and definitely people with no idea what they're talking about making super inflammatory and frankly ridiculous statements/accusations. It just feels so damn memey and I'm probably gonna leave. I see no worthwhile conversation happening on there, just 30-character twitter-style epic lib pwning with a refusal to engage in good faith with *other communists*. Like I said, not trying to *shit on them* or anything, just frustrated. If owning other communists online is your thing, more power to you I guess. Shit just makes me feel dirty sometimes and like I don't belong. Idk if this kind of post isn't allowed as it's literally bad mouthing another community, I'm just pretty upset about the experience.

/r/communism101 demonstrates how not to answer a question
First, here’s the question that the author asked: >I was doing some research on the Spanish Civil War […] and I noticed in the timeline, that there was a nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and fascist Italy, which it said strengthened economic relations. Can anyone tell me about this? I have severe doubts that the USSR would expand trade with a fascist power. A pact between the Soviet Union and Fascist Italy. That does sound troubling, and we should very well be concerned learning about that for the first time; it is a serious accusation. Of course, chances are that anticommunists are either distorting the issue or making it up entirely, as usual, but it’s safest to withhold judgement until we have more evidence. Now, how do you think that communism101 responded to this? >The liberal democracies of Europe made similar agreements with Hitler and Mussolini *before* the USSR did, and shot down Stalin's suggestions of an anti-fascist alliance in the 30s. That’s… not the issue here. The original poster’s question was asking about the ***Italo–Soviet Pact*** and what we could tell them about it. >You trade with fascists every time you go to a store or pay your bills. What's your justification and why doesn't it apply to the Soviet people? We frequently trade with anticommunists every time we got to a store or pay our bills. That is correct. But this topic is about the **Italo–Soviet Pact**, and a pact between states is a little bit different and more complicated than mundane transactions between individuals or a bill that we have to pay to businesses. >the USSR rightly determined that it was necessary to have some degree of economic relations with the capitalist world, why is it OK for them to sign peace treaties with Churchill and Roosevelt, both extreme genocidal racists, but unacceptable for them to do the same with Hitler and Mussolini? Yes, fine, but the question was not asking if it was OK or not for Moscow to sign a pact with a Fascist government. The question was asking if we could tell the original poster anything more about the Italo–Soviet Pact. Here, this is exactly what the poster asked: >So I was doing some research on the Spanish Civil War on Wikipedia (already liberal source, I’m aware), and I noticed in the timeline, that there was a nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and fascist Italy, which it said strengthened economic relations. Can anyone tell me about this? I have severe doubts that the USSR would expand trade with a fascist power. ‘*there was a nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and fascist Italy, which it said strengthened economic relations. Can anyone tell me about this?*’ **That** is the question. Unless maybe the asker is experiencing some sort of moral or existential crisis, telling us that liberals co‐operated with fascists is unlikely to be of much help. If we want to demonstrate that socialism in one country is preferable to a bourgeois régime (be it liberal or fascist), this certainly wouldn’t be of much help. So, what can we tell the author about this pact? Well, you are in luck, because I have a very credible answer right here. Quoting Andrei Yu. Sidorov in *History of International Relations and Russian Foreign Policy in the 20th Century*, [page 190](https://books.google.com/books?id=P2DNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA190): >‘*The sanctions were initiated by Britain, though already in the run-up to the conflict, the cabinet of S. Baldwin had firmly decided that it would under no circumstances go to war with Italy over Ethiopia. France, for its part, informed Britain that it was against imposing oil sanctions. The League of Nations never dared ban the sale of oil to Italy, thus missing the chance to stop hostilities. "If the League had extended economic sanctions of oil, I would have had to withdraw from Abyssinia within a week", recognised Benito Mussolini later.* > >‘*The Soviet Union took rather a cautious stance on the Ethiopian conflict. It did not have diplomatic relations with Ethiopia, while it had been quite closely co-operating with Italy. At the same time, Moscow could not ignore Mussolini's aggression. "However much we wish not to spoil relations with Italy, we cannot but go up against the imperialist war… it masterminds", wrote Maxim Litvinov to Stalin on October 5th, 1935.* > >‘*The Soviet Union supported the sanctions against Italy but did not go any further, **mindful of the position of France, its new ally.** The USSR representative in the League of Nations was instructed not to be overzealous in the matter of sanctions and not initiate oil sanctions. In December 1935 the Politburo declined Ethiopia's request for assistance with arms and military specialists. All those moves were aimed at avoiding a serious deterioration in relations with Italy **and preventing its rapprochement with Nazi Germany.***’ (Emphasis added.) You don’t need to distract from the issue, appeal to liberal memes like ‘HORSESHOE THEORY’ or ‘RED FASCISM’ or even express perfect satisfaction with this turn of events. You exercise **scrutiny**, you try to **get to the bottom of the issue** (specifically through Google Books, as the case may be), and you **think for yourself** by determining which explanation is the most reasonable. **That** is how you answer the question.

I see many different interpretations about this. **But what did Deng Xiaoping in fact mean with this quote?**

Thoughts on The American Dream
Ok so what the hell is the American dream. To be able to struggle most of your life to live and then eventually be able to have a family without going into debt too much? My mom especially confuses me because she always talks about how she had like 3 jobs and worked her body to the bone waitressing, yet she believes in it because she has a house and family now? Like I feel that maybe people shouldn't have to do that? Like peoples standards are too low? That really must be it actually. Usually when I bring up something bad about America they respond with "well it's better than that one authoritarian country." People are so propagandized that they lower their standards for what's good in a country. Maybe Im just being chauvinistic but I think a country like America, with what it does produce, should be able to give the basic necessities of life. Or last least not make people work 3 jobs for them. I do have to look back up on myself and realize that the conditions of workers in America is better than a lot of underdeveloped countries, but it just bugs me when people think America is all that because of the "opportunity" to live. There are a lot of people in America who do have it pretty rough unfortunately.

I feel like Ouisconkom is an account created for ban evasion.
Only a few days ago @Wisconsin got banned for being a revisionist (*good*).

On "degrowth"...
I know very little about this subject. I had someone I know tell me a few months ago that for socialism to be sustainable, and to solve the climate crisis, U.S.ians are going to need to give up almost all A/C. They pointed out the fact that Amerikans are crybabies and even most of Western Europe does not use A/C. However, with Greece and Spain recently having caught on fire and with heat waves devouring the nations, as well as stories regarding people in hotter regions in the U.S. *dying from heat stroke in their own homes* because they couldn't afford their electricity bills, this read as sort of Maoist-lite, petty-bourgeois radicalism to me shifting blame on individuals when there are so many systemic industries contributing astronomically to the worsening climate. I was wondering, is A/C usage so detrimental as to necessitate its destruction? Should not the focus be on larger, more destructive industries and actually increasing the availability and affordability of A/C to hotter regions? Should scientific focus be moreso on creating a *green* A/C? Like I said, almost no knowledge. Feel free to roast my ass (pun slightly intended).

/r/communism101 bans a communist who wanted a response to an anti-Soviet canard
>>An anti-communist interestingly made a claim, based on a wikipedia page > >Stop caring and grow up. [+7] …honestly, do I even need to explain why this advice is so terrible? I have an idea, though: that should be /r/communism101’s official slogan. I mean, what’s stopping them? So many threads could be avoided if only they used this as their default response to everything. Imagine how much time it would save! No need to worry about the people or things that you love when all that you have is sheer, raw confidence! And if ya think about it, can you ***really*** say that you love something if you’re worrying about it? Why would you ever do that? Just assume that everything’s fine! You know what, here’s an even better idea: why not lock up the subcommunity and set that as the entry page’s message? That would solve so many problems! Look, here’s a mock‐up: ![](https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/d4ee311a-0488-4b57-bdb5-20144b79bc6d.png) This is a great idea! In fact, this idea is so great, that if /r/communism101 actually implemented it, I can **guarantee** that ***it would reduce their workload by a whooping 100%! Wow!*** >They're not a communist or even socialist. Simply a liberal who consumes communist memes, which is why they're spreading a Nazi's rhetoric here. This submission hasn't been removed yet so that others may witness what lies underneath subreddits such as /r/CommunismMemes, /r/ShitLiberalsSay, and /r/PoliticalCompassMemes, ie. they're not harmless. For those wondering, [here are all of the OP’s contributions to /r/PoliticalCompassMemes.](https://api.pushshift.io/reddit/search/?subreddit=PoliticalCompassMemes&author=God-DAMN2180)

Sincere post on the anti-psychiatry rhetoric
Full disclosure: I'm training to be a psychologist (not psychiatrist) I've been browsing here a lot since Genzedong got quarantined, as I had been expecting a full removal soon after. The general community here is so positive and funny, I found myself preferring it to the subreddit. I decided to break from my lurking ways to comment on an unfortunate trend I've noticed: A few, maybe just one or two, users trying to bring legitimacy to anti-psychiatry rhetoric. These users are getting a great deal of attention for their posts, and they seem to me to be legit comrades, regularly posting in other subs as well. I think these users are genuine, and I don't intend to make this about them, nor am I about to speculate about their personal reasons for perpetuating these messages. I will say only this about them: There is a worrying tendency to fully dismiss the experiences and views of mental health professionals, saying that speaking to us is "like speaking to a wall," and encouraging other users to simply ignore our responses. I think I only need to describe this sort of behavior for the troublesome qualities of it to become self-evident. No more needs to be said on it. Now, I want to speak first to the kernel of truth in the anti-psychiatry lie, because this is somewhat personal to me. Following the death of my 24 year old brother in 2020, I had a very hard time maintaining my professional life for a little over a year. He was not only my closest friend, but also the only person with whom I could share my political thoughts openly, expecting that he might be feeling similar. Simply put, he was the only socialist I knew. At my field placement at the time, I was often working with people who were hospitalized. The fact that capitalism contributes to mental illness was not a new concept to me, but seeing how many of our patients were homeless, and knowing that, sometimes, they were sent back to the streets after we had gotten them "back to baseline," was devastating for me. It was the sort of disruption that makes a person question the field they are in. Cut-to October, 2021, I'm the only student in a classroom, explaining to 6 professors why my performance is slipping lately, and I find myself explaining that I feel impotent as a therapist, eventually yelling something rash to the effect of "If we actually wanted a psychologically-minded approach to helping these people, we'd be giving them houses!" Further, I was boiling in anger so slowly I almost didn't notice it, because I had no one - zero people - in this liberal-as-hell program to discuss my beliefs with. No one outside of it. Just no one. I was surrounded by people who loved to talk about "systems," but couldn't form a coherent thought about the economic system that undergirds all of the ills of these other systems. It is true that therapy and psychiatry are often bandaids for people living in a sick society. It is true that many of the problems we seek to address are exacerbated or outright caused by living in a capitalist system. It is true that therapy addresses the suffering of individuals, when that suffering is often the result of communal discord. It's deeply unhealthy to get stuck there though. I was for a time, and my outpatient clients likely suffered lower quality treatment from me during this time. I know everyone around me suffered a lower quality me. We are historical materialists. Because of the suffering caused by capitalism, it can be easy to lose sight of the materialist understanding of capitalism as an inevitable and necessary next step beyond feudalism, leading to socialism. Capitalism is not an entity you can diagnose as evil and then determine that everything birthed from within it is therefore also evil. That's idealism. The fact that psychiatry and therapy inherited flaws from operating within a capitalist system says absolutely nothing about their inherent nature, the intent of them, nor their impact. Now let's get more specific. This entire dance of tying capitalism and psychiatry together utterly ignores basic realities - like the fact that some mental illnesses seem to be primarily organic, that is, relating to the person's biological make-up, their "wiring." Primary examples of this include ADHD, Bipolar and Schizophrenia. If you suppose a person with schizophrenia or bipolar would suddenly be highly functional, absent medication, in a world where we've reached international communism, you are simply making a massive, uneducated guess. We don't know that, and anyone who has spent considerable time among the severely mentally ill population will tell you that it seems extremely unlikely. Further, we haven't reached communism, so it seems reasonable to suggest we do what we can for people who are suffering currently. A lot of anti-psychiatry rhetoric seems to come from the neurodivergent crowd, specifically people with ADHD and/or autism, who have felt mistreated by the field of psychiatry because they aren't disordered, just different from the type of person who succeeds under capitalism. There is a lot of truth to this, and I wish I had better answers for these individuals. Perhaps under communism, people with ADHD and Autism will feel no need for therapy. Then again, perhaps they'll still suffer from higher rates of depression than other people, simply because they find it harder to fit in socially. A lot of unhelpful speculation is required to even have that conversation. I'm more interested in helping people with the problems they say they want help with in their lives, at this point in time. Now to get on to what most people think of when they think of psychiatry and therapy. When I'm helping someone with OCD learn to work past their compulsions effectively enough that they can finally do something enjoyable with their time, no one gives a flying fuck if capitalism has to do with why they can't stop checking, and re-checking that everything in their home is "just right." When I'm helping a socially anxious person find human connection, or a depressed person find something rewarding to engage in, again, the discussion of how their mental illness is a result of capitalism feels trivial in the face of their suffering. Yes, every single one of my clients deserves revolution. No, I'm not capable of bringing about that revolution on my own, but I can help my clients make friends and find meaning in the lives they do have under this capitalist system. The last problem with anti-psychiatry being tied to Marxism is more pragmatic: People who are curious about communism come to this site. Most people's (with very unfortunate but real exceptions) experience of psychiatry and therapy will not map onto the exploitative machine described by the anti-psychiatry folks any more than their experience of the medical field does. This means that any curious liberal who comes into this space looking for answers is going to be immediately turned off. Anyway, I'm really thankful for this place and hope this post doesn't make me a pariah around here in the future. Thanks for reading, comrades. Edit: A previous version of this post contained language that was unfair to the anti-psychiatry crowd. This was a mistake pointed out to me in the comments, and I see what they mean. I'll do better with that in the future.

I am Chinese and I have very little hope in China as a Communist country. Please help! I don’t see things improving! Regarding University LGBT incident and 996.
Hello. Hopefully I won’t get banned for mentioning some stuff happening in China. From a western perspective, China seems perfect. There is a Communist Party in charge and the constitution says people have labor rights. But I want to examine some topics which make me very uncomfortable. For reference: Grew up in China 2002 to 2012, Moved to America, currently going through University in Americar, planning to go back to China immediately when I finish and restore People’s Republic citizenship. After living in the west for 10 years I am a hardcore communist. After I read the Little Red Book it was one of the most awesome things I ever read. I am grateful that the most populous country with such a huge territory and long history has a Communist government. Forgive me if I’m a bit on edge, the whole Nancy Pelosi Bullshit is making me very very stressed. If Americar and China are going to fight, at least do so after I escape Americar and go back to my family. For those of you who doubt me: 如果你真的怀疑我是中国人,你觉得一个假中国人能写出这样的话吗?当然, 现代有谷歌翻译,但是毕竟谷歌翻译是机器,有时候还会不能完美地模仿人类的自然语言。全世界无产阶级人民团结!!! Please please please don’t just see the epic People’s Liberation Army videos or the official news reportings, there is so much on bilibili and zhihu that a westerner wouldn’t know unless you are fluent in the language. Tsinghua University Rainbow flags incident. Recently there has been an incident with Tsinghua University, one of the most prestigious higher education places in the coutnry. (the fact that this place is prestigious is problematic to me. Aren’t we communists supposed to, you know, ensure equality? I don’t think Westerners truly understand just how unequal education is in China. The quality of school facilities in rich and poor areas are just absolutely incomparable, and graduates of prestigious universities get much better jobs and much better income, which just isn’t fair. An engineering graduate is an engineering graduate, there shouldn’t be any differences in educational standards in different schools) A student left 10 little LBGT rainbow flags on a table, then was punished for it because the school says it is “宣传品“ which can be translated as propaganda OR informational materials. Not everything has to do with LGBT is about western infiltration you know. How can a student be punished for simply leaving 10 (TEN) rainbow flags? It’s a general symbol of Sexual and Gender Minorities. If there is proof of western infiltration, then yes, that is a problem. Right now I see very little Native Chinese activity in terms of LGBT. I agree the Chinese need our own LGBT awareness programs but it just isn’t happening. I don’t know why the central people’s government isn’t just coming out and saying people shouldn’t discriminate against LGBT. Even the word LGBT is western in origin, the Chinese need their own word for it. I think we should use 奻𤲶双跨. Each zi corresponds to each letter in LGBT. On Weibo微博 there were people arguing over this, in typical Chinese shitshow fashion. I heard enough of this in my childhood, my grandparents and my mother are all practitioners of the well-respected art of yelling. (Me too, although I tend to do more targeted insults, against homophobia, transphobia, corporate bootlicking, western bootlicking, religious persecution of others etc). There are very many extremely homophobic people on there saying that this is “western infiltration“ and that the students deserve even more punishment. Some say that Homosexuals should keep to themselves. The problem is, Homosexuals just aren’t seen in society, and if LGBT keep to themselves, how can they ensure that they are not discriminated against in terms of employment, education, and other opportunities? What about school bullying, domestic violence, suicides? How can Gay people even find love if they can’t even say “hey, we are gay?” There were nice people who argued FOR LBGT and insulted the homophobes, by saying that homophobes have no culture (没文化is a very common insult in China) and that although homopbobes say that homosexuals are diseased, the true disease are the homophobes themlseves. When I became a Communist in America, it’s precisely because they are simply the better side, the left supports LGBT, the right does not. I can’t deal with the fact that my home country, which should embrace Marxist Materialism according to its own ruling party, has so much homophobia. Western report: https://supchina.com/2022/07/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-lgbtq-student-groups-in-china/ Report in Chinese language (but not from China), it contains what looks to be official school documents for the students’ consequences. https://chinadigitaltimes.net/chinese/684454.html I couldn’t find any official reportage of this Tsinhua University event, but I do see it being talked about on social media. https://weibo.com/3349258552/KnEhha2e7?refer_flag=1001030103_ Weibo post reporting the government shutting down multiple university LGBT organizations. The user is happy and calls LGBT dirty and disgusting. Some people cite Marx and Engels who were homophobic. I understand that Marx and Engels were from a very different era and I love them despite their homophobia. I know that if they were born in a different time they definitely wouldn’t be homophobes. The other problem I want to discuss is 996. So…. How are we going to fight against it? Is the government making any progress? They condemned it in 2021. Are companies actually being forced to give their employees human hours? Are companies giving them a 40 hour workweek with 2 days off each week? It is an incredible shame that in a Leftst Red country this sort of exploitation exists. Keep in mind that I ain’t saying Americar is good. University prices are sky high and Americans will NEVER be able to retire OR get a house. The American government is controlled by money. But that doesn’t matter because China shouldn’t be comparing itself against America. China should be comparing itself against the metrics of Communism. I see some western tovarishi (comerades) say that 996 is only in Shanghai and Macau and HongKong. Not true. It is a phenomenon all over. Some western comrades say that this is only the tech industry. Not true. I look on the Chinese internet and it seems to me 996 is a very widespread phenomenon across multiple sectors in multiple places. It is an unmentionable shame that a thousands years old culture which values FAMILY above all gives people 0 (ZERO) time to be with their family. This is not even mentioning the nongmingong (workers who have rural hukou/registration but who go to work in cities) who cannot buy houses in cities for some reason, they live in shitty accomodations and can only see their families for 15 days in Chinese New Near. Paid time off and vacations don’t exist in Chinese culture. Your boss and coworkers WILL call you and expect you to answer, IF you somehow manage to convince your superiors that you deserve a break. And the Hierarchical culture… Is absolutely disgusting. Higher ups will lord it over you like some feudal official. We are 共产主义者for fucks sake we should be equal. Now I admit I spent half of my life in America so I haven’t experienced things personally but I follow Chinese social media quite closely. It really is that bad. And before you accuse me of being a western spy or a Eff Bee Eye, first see if you can read this. If you can’t, then you should probably consider the fact that this is MY culture not yours.. 中华文化是我的文化。我有资格去评价当前的中国人的网上谈论。 The Law has been against 996 exploitation for a VERY long time. But why has the government taken so long to act? Are their policies effective? You can’t just say you’re against something and not use all available force to punish these bad things. Americar makes laws and doesn’t enforce them, I don’t want China to become like America. Another worrying phenomenon is a new way of looking at history. Confucious, a misogynistic monarchist who puts book-men(who do ceremonies or something) over farm laborers (who provide food) is rehabilitated by the Party. In Official documentaries about history, I see Emperors being praised. This is very dangerous because I can’t see myself loving these dudes who lived in palaces and had 100s of women to play with while their subjects labored in the fields. I see so much traditionalism in Chinese media and not enough revolutionary culture. Why? Please just why? The Great Helmsman (Mao) spent so much time fighting against feudal society. And in recent years, xenophobia is on the rise in Chinese online discours. Everything Chinese is good and Foreign things are bad. If China needs something, it has to be Chinese. LGBT is from the west therefore it is bad. Why would one listen to music from the West if one has good Chinese music to listen to? Westerners don’t beat their children, so we Chinese do. It’s only natural. Everything has to be Chinese nowadays. Where does cultural confidence end and chauvinism begin? I agree every single damn country needs cultural confidence. Look at the rise of the Right in Germany. If you’re not gonna teach to the young Deutschen good Deutsche Kultur, they will fall to Right Wing German culture, the bad part of Deutscher Kultur. And before you accuse me of being a western spy or a Eff Bee Eye, first see if you can read this. If you can’t, then you should probably consider the fact that this is MY culture not yours.. 中华文化是我的文化。我有资格去评价当前的中国人的网上谈论。 Please please please don’t just see the epic People’s Liberation Army videos or the official news reportings, there is so much on bilibili and zhihu that a westerner wouldn’t know unless you are fluent in the language.

Is lemmy.ml a centrist/lib instance?
A lot of users there just sit around on high horses looking down at the masses, criticizing them for not doing any praxis. Meanwhile they call their slacktivism the height of revolutionary action, as they intend to overthrow the bourgeoisie from the comfort of their cushy computer/phone. And of course they all cite some reason for why they do no irl praxis. Meanwhile other leftists also have reasons to not do praxis (ex che Guevara), but deal with the reason. Not all lemmy.ml users!

Part 3 of "i did not want to write this", use this one to debate about the Issue please
Muad'dibber, what the fuck? I used to respect you as an moderator, you are modding lemmygrad for more then a year, much longer then since genzedong got banned, so why now, all of a sudden, you decided to do this? And i want an actual response, dont you even dare to delete my post before people are able of actually reading it, i am going to save everything i writed here and i will post it on subs where you are not an mod, I want this to be an post to clear this mess, and it will stay up, like you or not, till this situation is over; Muad'dibber has on the last 3 days been openly anti-patsoc, and he got since the last day on some nasty arguments against SaddamHussain, me, and PolandAsAStateOfMind, us three where calling out the fact his "critiscism" of "patsocs" was mostly bs, Saddam explained to him on the most civilized way possible why what Muad was saying was just wrong, and Muad started openly diffamating Saddam, calling him an pro israel reactionary, with was when i entered on this mess and sayed to muad how he was lying, how saddam never sayed he was pro Israel, nor pro settler, and the people on the threads where agreeing with me, oh and minutes after getting on the argument with Saddam, Muad created AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY just to diss on "patsocs" with is honestly pathetic, using your power as an mod to openly create propaganda to get an advantage on a fucking internet argument that you are losing?! Oh, and when people started openly saying that no drastic measures where needed, that we should not go at each others throats for something so small, and that there was even people that where being openlly anti-patsoc calling out muad as just being mad at Saddam and Saddam expecifically, and that he was not even trying to make sense anymore. He now has deleted most of saddam comments to cover the facts, is deleting my comments calling him out, banned both me and Saddam (and he did not even give an warning to me) and is putting commentaries on the moderation historic saying we where being "pro-israel", "Reactionary", "patsocs", "pro-imperialism", "pro"colonialism", etc, complete and absolute slanders and petty lies. Now, what i want to do with this, i want this post to stand here so we are able of talking about this issue, i want mine and Saddam account unbanned, i want the Arguments with Muad, Me and Saddam to be unremoved (if possible) so people can see what was happening and make their own conclusions, and i want that Muad come here and defend himself. I have been participating on both lemmygrad AND the former r/Genzedong subreddit since december of last november of last year, i am one of the most active members here, i have proved myself over and over that i am in fact a leftist, and that i am in fact a communist, AND i am not accepting that my entire social life on the internet that resolves entirelly on using this site to talk with other people i agree with gets nucked into fucking oblivion because a single person got mad he lost on an internet argument. Now mods, come here and say everything you want to say, but i want my right of expressing myself on this.

I hate that i need to write this.
(just to let an certain person know, i made this 3 part rant to resolve this patsoc issue once and for all, i want that this post stays up, and that we can have this conversation, and so the mods can know, i will in fact save the text of all three posts and i will in fact post it again if you decide to delete it, i want to use my rights as an long time user of the community, and the fact this community was made especifically to vent about this stuff, so my rant can stay) Hello, most of you that are using Lemmygrad.ml for the last months probably know me, and people that where using r/Genzedong during its last months also probably know me; i am an brasillian communist, that only last year did in fact become a communist, i have been an very openly anti-western person, and specially anti US, i have aways tried to mantain myself away from drama, both on r/Genzedong and on here, only posted from time to time, and i enjoyed staying both there, while it lasted, and here, till now. Now, you might be asking yourself, if you know my account from Lemmygrad.ml, why am i using my lemmy account when i can just use my lemmygrad one? Well, the answer is simple, i got banned. And i was not the only one, an spanish comrade called SaddamHussain also got banned not just some minutes ago. Now, you might be asking yourself: Why? Why did me and Saddam, 2 communists that have been very active on our community since reddit days have been banned all of a sudden? Well, the answer is not so simple. Recently, less then half a week ago, some drama was born here on our community, and the main issue was about "patsocs", everyone here probably knows about this by now, where a bunch of our members started to openly bash those "patsocs" and an very small ammount of members, me and Saddam included, where arguing that all of this hate was very uncalled for, that this hate was an storm on a cup of water, that "patsocs" (or at least the only 2 patsocs everyone know about, Caleb Maupin and Haz, but i will talk about then in just a minute) where not doing anything really harmfull. This clash of ideas that seemed like just an small argumentation at worst, quickly becamed an absolute mess, where on one side comrade SaddamHussain was trying his best at keeping the conversation at an civilized level, the anti-patsoc members quickly started to attack him and his position, constantly calling him an patsoc (when the only times where he considered himself one was to tell he was an patriot, but patriotism will need an little explanation on this context, wich i wll also explain in a bit), he constantly explained in the most civil way his point of view, never attacking anyone verbally, even when he was basically being difamated at some points, while the other members quickly started saying he just hated natives and palestinians, that he was an xionist, an reactionary, an revisionist, an american fascist (when he is not even american), that he was pro-setler and pro colonialism, (wich if you ask me, is some very dumb things to call an communist that calls himself "SaddamHussain, you know, the Iraquian anti-xionist socialist, that called for pan-arabism to unite all arabian countries and end the borders that he declared that where made by foreign colonialism?) and while i did not want to really participate on it, i was simply not able to see such unfairness happening on front of me and not do anything about it. I started responding to some of the comments constantly attacking him, and i gived my own point of view on the situation, keep in mind, i an not american, nor am i a patsoc (i only watched some shorts clips from caleb and thats it) i am very explicity anti-american, anti colonialism, i am an atheist, and much more other things that i dont think would make me even close to an "patsoc", but some of the "critiscism" being made of both Caleb, SaddamHussain and whatever concept of what "patsocs" even are was so weak, so drived by personal reasons, and specially that it was so god damn badly researched (most people that where asked if they did know who maupin was, or what patsocs even are responded that they did not know), that it was just painfull to watch. Then i started getting involved, but i was not even involved that much, i only writed half a dozen comments trying to defend SaddamHussain. And now i was banned, the comments i writed defending Saddam are being deleted by an certain mod (with i will talk about later), Saddam also got banned and his comments are also getting deleted. Now that this got out of our way, lets see some quick things: Who is Caleb Maupin, what Patsocs actually are, what is patriotism (from an ML pov) and the very unprofessional way the mr.Mod was acting, lets get started: Who the fuck is Caleb Maupin? Well, it is kinda of difficult to explain, but by the videos of him that i watched and from the actual info i got about him, Caleb seems to be an american communist that has an organization focused on teaching socialist ideas to the people, and he acts on certain strange ways; He is very acceptive towards most people in general, including conservative and religious people, not because he has the same opinion of them on certain things conservatives think, like abortion, lgbt rights, etc (he is openly pro-abortion and pro-lgbt rights) but because he argues that if we just discard those people that can be explained ml ideas with enough time just because we disagree with them in some certain cultural parts of society, we are basically giving an free card to fascists to influence those people, i personally agree with them, those cultural views never stoped anyone from being communists, Che guevara, Stalin, Fidel Castro, and lots of other communist figures that where created on very conservative societys did have some anti-lgbt views (but they never acted during their goverments against lgbt people, they just haved bad personal opinions about them, with is fine, as long as people that have anti-lgbt views dont openly act on ways that are made to prejudice lgbt people, their personal opinions can be ignored) or where anti-abortion (while in some cases, some communist leaders, like Stalin or Ceaucesco, only did that because they where worried about bad birth rates, or because of the severe punch the population got after several wars, and in some cases there where leaders that prohibited it because of religious views, on both cases we know now that they acted on incorrect ways, and we should not repeat their errors). Now, a lot of anti-patsoc people might think this means me and Caleb are anti-lgbt rights and anti-abortion, but its not the case, we are just saying that the people that think on that way can still be accepted, as long they keep that to themselves, simple as that, several people here (including anti-patsoc ones) think on this way, so why shame Caleb, me and people trying to defend him? Another view of Caleb that annoyed some people are the fact he likes to use some simbols of american history that have some very bad history behind them as an way to atract the most common people, like the US flags, the founding fathers, etc. Now, this is an tricky position, but i get what he is trying to do, appeasing to the patriots of the country and trying to explain to them an better way to love their country, now, every country has patriot simbols, and most of those simbols are conservative, and because they are conservative, they generally carry some messages that should have stayed in the past, BUT, hear me out, sometimes using those simbols to atract people to the cause can be helpfull, conservatives might not be the best persons to try to convince communism is better then capitalism, but we got to understand, they are the majority, and having at least part of the majority on OUR side instead of the other side, you know, the ones with fascists and nazis armed to the teeth, can be an MASSIVE difference, Imagine if Fidel Castro refused to use the most common people that he could find after the beggining of the invasion was an absolute disaster and he lost almost his entire crew? Hell imagine if che Guevara refused to help fidel because basically his entire crew (with the exception of Raul) was not communist, hell an considerable ammount was even anti communist! imagine if Mao refused to add the farmer population to the communist cause, because most of them where conservatives, or did not like communism because they where told communism is something extremelly bad. You see? Having a close mind when you need allies to fight an extremelly dangerous, much more well prepared, much more influent, and hundreds of times bigger then you, is an recipe to absolute disaster, you become an Gonzalo, or an Pol pot, someone that goes and kick people out of partys for minor things, or kill innocent people instead of convincing them for simple, minor things. The last, and probably the most polemical thing people know about maupin, (caption limit, [see part 2](https://lemmy.ml/post/350604))

Part 2 of "i hate that i need to write this" see part one pls
is his opinion on Land Back, with i will put an link [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB7DwdCxgtM&t=2s) where he explains his opinion in a more clear way; long history short, he is not against giving land back for the natives, he is pro-landback, but he points out that there is actually 2 land backs; LandbackTM (corporate bs wanting to make money on the natives cause) vs massline Landback (land reform that respects self-determination, treaties, and nature aka actual anti-colonization). He is pointing out how the first one is basically using an much more agressive and corporative view, that is just tainting the movement reputation, much like how corporations make money on race problems or lgbt-rights, doing extremelly ofensive "representations" that just taint the movement as an whole. I think i explained enough stuff about caleb, but i will also put a little more thought on the setler issue quickly: Basically some people misinterpretated something me and Saddam said about the situation on Palestine and Isnt'Real, where when we told how the Israeli population should not support the colonization of palestine, because its not on their best interests EVEN if they get "free land" for their suport. Why should they not support them? because as we all know as marxists, the land is not trully being gived to the israeli population, you see, an funny bearded german guy talked about this 180 years ago, and he said that "the burgeoise own all means of production, and the working class only has their own work value, so they sell it to the burgeoise at bare minimun prices imposed by the burgeoise so they dont starve" very simple right? So in this case, the burgeoise might look like they are giving land, but they are creating an artificial burgeoise at best, why would they give free land for the filthy peasants just for some public support am i right? They are mostly using the israeli population to quickin the process of full colonization of palestine, so if the palestinians revide on any type of way, the xionist midia will flip it as "the barbarian muslins killing our poor white civilians, we need apartheid state now reeeeee!!!!", but when they are able to take the land from the palestinians, they will eventually take the land back from the israelis because of the falling rate of proffit, where when the burgeoise starts making more and more money over the means of production stolen from the palestinians, the israelli workers will not make more money, they will in fact start losing money, and when they are bankrupted by their low wages and increasingly higher prices, they will start losing their land to the burgeoise, with only a few rich burgeoise and petty burgeoise that moved there from the start actually keeping the land, thus creating an artificial burgeoise, getting rid of the palestinians AND taking everything from Israelli workers, three rabits on a single shot, this is why this white supremacist paradise the burgeoise is marketing is not going to last, because capitalism is not going to last because it is not susteinable. Now, some people said that the israellis being coerced into the colonisation will actually keep getting money because Israel will aways be funded by the US and will keep stealing from the countries around it, like syria, Lebanon, etc, and thats because Israel is an imperialist state, with is true for the time being, it is not going to last, like everything capitalism makes us thing it will succed, it awys fails horribly after enough time, imperialism is not susteinable, apartheids are not susteinable, because there is just enough popular apeasing souless capitalist monsters can bother to do to keep their own population in check before its start not being enough, imperialism is agressive towards other countries, and apartheids are agressive towards the majority of the native population, Israel might have looked like the winning side an decade or two ago, but the US eventually will stop giving money, and eventually the countries around it will not support Israel prescense anymore, and eventually the palestinian population will get even more agressive towards the invaders, and eventually even the israelli population will not support their countries actions, like many israellis that are pro-palestine already do (ironically, the most orthodox and conservative jews are some of the most anti-xionists out there, because their own religion says that Israel will only, and should only, be formed on the prophet comes back, so Israel existence is against the judaic religion as an whole), Israel is eventually going to collapse like every apartheid and imperialist state do, and when it collapses, there will not be enough apeasement of the xionists to convince the population that colonialism is still good. An other thing i see debated on this topic is: what should we do with the settler population living on the natives land? Well, its quite simple, we move enough them to other parts of the country (with help and remuneration of the state) and give enough land to the native population live in peace. On the case of Israel, a lot of xionist scum moved there to enjoy an easy life on their apartheid state wet dream, those people can fuck off, xionists are getting kicked out, but the normal israeli population can just be moved to their respective place (where they should have stayed when Israel was created) and the palestinians can keep the land that is rightfully theirs, and of course, be remunerated by because of the damage imperialism did to them. All right, i think i got everything from this issue, lets continue. What the fuck is an Patsoc? Well it is an very shaddy question, as almost everyone here dont have an actual idea of what they are, but from what ive seem from Infrared and Caleb Maupin, with dont actually call themselves patsocs, this is an buzzword used to shame other mls you disagree with, basically an ml version of the word "tankie", what most people here are reffering to when they talk about "patsocs" is or Caleb and Infrared (and just those 2 lol) or are some weird assholes from twitter that are saying dumb shit (classic twitter that we aways make fun of) but somehow those 2 different things, that are 2 communist activists on one side, and twitter nobodys on the other, somehow got related to each other. Now i have talked about Caleb, so i will now talk about infrared; he is an very intense person, and has some weird takes from time to time, but he is not an fascist, or an revisionist, like caleb, he tries to reach the more conservative and liberal population by baiting them with conservative simbols, he is not an rascist, he doesnt hate lgbt people, he is not pro-colonization, he is not any of the things actual fascists are, he is just an communist that uses traditional and conservative talking points to talk with traditional and conservative parts of society, just like caleb. You can say they are flawed, that their methods are flawed, it is fine, but stop lying for fuck sake, stop using words that are not meaning what they should, please actually try to hear what they have to say before making an goddamn idealist purge, and stop using this fucking buzzword and this artificial creation of an "massive evil organization of revisionists we need to fight at all costs", its literally 2 dudes, its not an organization, its not an ideology, so please stop with this infantile ideological purge! its exactly lack of communication and understanding of what one side of comrades is saying to the other is what creates useless discussion that is not leading to nothing besides infighting and hate towards eachother. Now, continuing to the next point... What is patriotism (from an ML-pov)? Patriotism is love for the country, plain and simple, but, we as mls aways make fun of capitalist patriots because they are loving something that hates them, and their love for the country is blinding them from the fact that the burgeoise is scamming then. Now, if capitalist patriotism is bad, then what is communist patriotism then? We are of course, the bigger patriots, we are ready to fight against an ruthless sistem and unite the masses to save our countries from destruction that capitalism brings, but if we are patriots and communists on capitalist nations, how can we exist? Well, its simple, we dont love the burgeoise state, we love the raw country, the people that live on it, the core of it, not the burgeoise on power, we want to kick out the burgeoise and create an socialist state, but an state is not what defines an country, it is what guides and represent the country, the people are the country, our job as patriots to love our people, our country, to liberate them from capitalism as guide them to a better future, we need to help our country by getting ridden of the traitorous burgeoise destroying it for self proffit, and install an ploretarian dictatorship, where the people, the country, is on control of things through the state. This is what patriotism is, love for the country, love for the people, not love for the state. Continuing now to the hardest thing of this entire rant... (Caption limit again (damn this got big) please use [the last part](https://lemmy.ml/post/350584) to talk about the situation, and to read about my last issue...)

I believe there needs to be multiple "debates" on PatSocs
As you have all noticed, this seems to be a point of contention here. This is a good thing, since it means someone will learn something. Now we seem to be all over the place, with this general area of thought, provoking many questions. Whether or not PatSocs are socially conservative, what is position on social conservatism? Many of us are very young, both in age and ML experience, so an online discussion would be a great learning tool. 1. Are socially conservative individuals allowed to be apart of the leftist movement? - A. Are socially conservative individuals victims of bourgeois propaganda? -B. If socially conservative people are turned away by the left, where do they go? -C. How high of a position would a social conservative be allowed in a ML party? -D. How has or will MLs educate socially conservative folk? -E. &tc, &tc. 2. What exactly is Patriotism? -A. Does patriotism depend on culture? -B Is possible for a distinction between patriotism for a country and wanting to abolish the state? -C. Is patriotism corrupted in the Core? -D How have post imperialist countries with Communist experiments built patriotism? -E. &Tc &TC 3. Who even are the PatSocs? -A. If the label is too convuluted, should we make a distinction between Maupin and American exceptionalists? -B. Who of the leaders do we consider MLs? -C. Should patriotic socialist be distinct from socialism or is inherent in socialism? -D. How much do WE even know if PatSocs? -E. &Tc, &tc We can look at the USSR and GDR for these questions. Remember the Hammer and Sickel came from somewhere. Things to look out for about the US: -It is the imperialist power, AND a settler state. -Low levels of cultural development -The culture that is there is taken from marginalized groups. -Americas are the most propagandized people in the World. -It is huge and incredibly diverse More questions about the US could follow: -Should the US be balkanized? If so how does patriotism be built in balkanized regions? -How does land back go about? Will indigenous countries emerge, and if so should we reconsider American MLs as different MLs for the Regions in North America. -If we see different nations and regions in North America how does that affect culture? Is the question of how we view the land a prerequisite to discussing patriotism, is it contradictory to call yourself an American Patriot if you decide to divide up the land until regions? There is so much potential for deep political for North American based Comrades, this is a rabbit hole I do want to delve into. I'll cross post this to GZD but I want it mainly on Leftist Infighting. Edit: spacing issues

People claiming Zizek as representative of "the left" is a sick joke
![](https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/bb760475-403d-44da-b184-fe2bc974d0c2.jpeg) ![](https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/17bc9bd3-99ea-4439-b295-84ab781df015.jpeg) Zizek is either a psyop or incapable of critical thought. Photos taken from "Slavoj Zizek Presents On Practice and Contradiction". Note him disparaging anti-imperialism and accusing the CPC of basically the worst crimes against humanity, and arguing that in the future they will practice eugenics.

Y'all ever worry about how far deep the rabbit hole you're getting?
Oliver Stone pretty much sealed the deal in my mind that the CIA assassinated JFK, that's one major so-called "conspiracy theory" cemented as probably true. The U.S. state has poisoned its own citizens before, dropped bombs on people in its commonwealths. Is it poisoning the water supply? What reason would they have? Weakening agents, toothpaste lobbyists putting shit in the water to rot our teeth in order to spike demand for their product? Testing bioweapons that cause esophageal cancer? Water that causes acid reflux at the behest of Big TUMS? Their justification for using bioweapons in San Fransisco and New York were to "test against a possible hostile bioweapon attack", so we know the Amerikkkan state doesn't need justification to do anything, it's completely arbitrary and irrational at times -- as fascism is wont to be. What about our news media? We know mainstream news outlets are bought and paid for by RFA and the NED and other NGOs the alphabet boys and the pentagon use to maintain hegemony. What about the news outlets we trust? We know the U.S. state will brazenly ban and shut down entire websites and newspapers if they're deemed a security risk (as they did with that Iranian website), but usually it's a soft-ban where social media and streaming corpos deplatform news outlets like the Grayzone, RT, Lee Camp, etc. Who's to say that the state department isn't carefully cultivating a drip-feed of true info to keep us content as a portion of the population "in the know", but just little enough to ensure that we aren't keen on the absolute, total, nightmarish barbarity of it all -- just little enough that the masses will consider us conspiracists forever. Does there exist a sort of "information bubble" that will never be popped until the state is destroyed? I've heard some people claim that we give the modern state too much credit, that it's much weaker than it was in the Cold War days because they refuse to adapt and change strategy, and it's led by a bunch of senile fools who promote shit like "cisgender woman of color CIA agent" propaganda. On the other hand, communists seem to be split on exactly how strong the state is -- are we all on a list, or is the bureaucracy so disorganized and overwrought that a true "list" is improbable? I don't know. Materially, if all of this is true, or if none of it is, it won't impact the fact that we need to organize, nor that Marxism is a science and framework for responding to the **material** reality as far as we are capable of witnessing it. It just bothers me. The neoliberal hegemon, in all of its cruelty, is capable of trying anything and for any reason, most usually profit.

"Anarchists are communists" now? I've never once recognized this, and I'm still kinda questioning why r/sls is so intent on playing protectionist over [people the FBI made specifically to be wreckers.](https://www.autistici.org/poderobrero/articulos/in-cointelpro-fbi-used-anarchism-to-disrupt-left-attack-vietnam-ussr) Idgi, but it frankly sickens me.

[His follow‐up post.](https://wp.me/p3rKs-1hi) I have no comment.

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