These early adopters found out what happened when a cutting-edge marvel became an obsolete gadget… inside their bodies.
It’s pretty simple. Medical devices should have certain expectations for time and support. This happens in other industries all the time. Product support has to be guaranteed. And if you can’t guarantee product support, make your software open source. That’s not a law, just a “I’m not an asshole” placeholder. Open source schematics and software won’t fix everything, but it shows good faith effort to help people fucking not go blind.
What’s so messed up to me is that the implants I design, inactive pieces of metal, are required to be operable for the life of our longest living patient PLUS 20 YEARS. Yet somehow as soon as electronics are involved they can get away with this. How long until pacemakers or insulin pumps need a license to continue functioning?
This is why I have an issue with privatized medicine.
I agree with your sentiment, and maybe this is a minor quibble, but I don’t see how complex electronic implants can be designed to function on the same timelines as “inactive pieces of metal”.
I do think that your bashing of privatized medicine is on the right track though. There needs to be some sort of regulatory framework, and possibly public funding, to maintain warranty and replacement stockpiles for implants that are too dangerous, or complex to remove, or unique in the medical niche they fill.
However, I’m just spitballing out of my ass and depth here, so there’s a real possibility that everything I just said is nonviable, or otherwise idiotic.
I don’t see how complex electronic implants can be designed to function on the same timelines as “inactive pieces of metal”.
Considering the already existing issues with inactive implants, maybe electronics shouldn’t be allowed in implants until they can demonstrate reliability.
I don’t disagree with holding those implants to high standards and reliability, but think of it this way:
My iPod is great, and has worked great for over a decade and it’s still going strong. However, I don’t think it’ll be around long enough to get passed down to my grandkids, but my wrench set probably will.
That’s my point. You can’t hold complex electronics to the same lifespan as a wrench, or replacement hip, no matter how well built they are.
Which goes back to my original comment about mandating sufficient warranty and replacement inventory being required for all existing patients.
Unless you think a better alternative is just to tell patients that’s instead of doing something within our technical grasp, with a legal safety net, they’ll have to wait until we develop artificial eyes that can last 80+ years, which may, or may not, happen within this century.
I think if you look around hospitals and science labs you will find there is some old electrical equipment that is still used because of how reliable it is.
When we want we can make lighbulbs that last a century
Space probe Voyager 1 (1977) is still communicating with earth from beyond the solar system, Space tech is a good general example of advanced technology that is designed to keep functioning, EDIT: After 46 years it had a computer glitch just today. It was designed to last only 5 years.
Other examples include bakelite Telephones from the 30s and Radios from even earlier still being fully operational.
Incorporating electrical equipment in implant and prosthesis should be just fine, but it should come ready out of the box with no need for updates whatsoever and the software that is prevalent open source so you don’t need to rely on a for profit company to maintain your health post surgery.
You are not doing an accurate comparison here.
You are ignoring all the stuff that died early (survivor bias). You are ignoring the maintenance crews that keep that stuff going which you know isn’t the same as performing surgery. You are ignoring replacement parts. You are ignoring the conditions of operations, the human body is wet. You are ignoring the changes of electronics that made them less reliable but not prone to giving people lead and mercury poisoning. You are ignoring the amount of work being asked to perform from the electronics.
Also Voyager was not designed to last 5 years the engineers involved admitted that. They planned for it to last much longer but NASA management didn’t want to oversell it.
Developing things that are too robust and reliable means you run the risk of saturating your market and then going out of business.
Developing things that are intended to break down or fail only requires a competent enough legal team to ensure that your company is not liable for that happening approximately sooner than when your disclaimer no one reads states the customer may expect that to happen by.
Developing software that is bug free, ie, robust, violates both of the proceeding rules of private enterprise in a ‘free market’ capitalist society.
You want people to be dependent on software updates so maybe you can earn a subscription fee of some kind, or have the ability to remove pre-existing features in the future and then offer their return for a one time or recurring purchase.
Also, developing robust code that does not fail requires testing and sometimes extensive redevelopment, which is expensive, requires paying competent programmers good salaries, and cuts into the impossibly fast initial development timeframe the idiot manager with a business degree promised to the VP.
After years working various programming and data analytics jobs for various tech firms, I can tell you that no one cares about making a good product or delivering a good service, maybe other than the actual people designing it. Everyone else only cares about whether it either makes money or earns them social status of some kind.
Capitalism is not compatible with sound programming practices.
On a personal note:
I am 34 and am now far too jaded to ever attempt to work any tech job as an employee ever again. The number of times I have explained to managers with no background in computer technology that no, that is a bad idea for all these reasons, then one of those reasons massively delays a project, forces another team to make their project compatible with mine due to absurd imposed design limitations, or outright makes the whole project fail… and then all the blame is pinned on me for a failure I told them would happen if I listened to ‘their idea’, is so vast that I am just going to make my own video game now.
I have never met an experienced programmer who has not had this happen to them countless times.
I get it. Most days I would love to get out of tech. Any given project I got half a dozen sales people and PEs who want to trash my software/electrical designs. It is commonplace for me to downgrade my work. Giving customers a less reliable more expensive system. Given how much of my work is for the government there is zero mystery where cost disease is coming from.
I just worry that if I walk away no one will stop them.
Yup sounds look one of the good reasons to hate on capitalism. The guys able to create reliable long living stuff should be praised to the highest degree. Its why I believe job/career should not be attached to survival income. So much energy gets wasted because stuff is designed to break. So much talent is wasted because too nice things are not profitable
I got lucky and work at the internal IT for a nonprofit, things aint brilliant either but at least its discussable stupidity and not intentional malice
What you describe is why I don’t think electronics should be in implants. “Dumb” implants already have issues; adding electronics will only increase the issues.
You can’t hold complex electronics to the same lifespan as a wrench, or replacement hip, no matter how well built they are.
Exactly why it’s not going in my body.
Considering the already existing issues with inactive implants, maybe electronics shouldn’t be allowed in implants until they can demonstrate reliability.
if someone is willing to pay $150k to see blurry grey dots I don’t see how it’s anyone’s business but there’s to ban that.
This is a pretty wild take you’re making here. You’re essentially telling anyone who has received a deep-brain implant for Parkinson’s to go kick rocks.
Just a thought, but with deep brain implants aren’t the electronics separate from the electrodes that actually go in the brain? That would make them a little more accessible without needing to do brain surgery every time.
Maybe that’s the middle ground for this situation at this moment in time: make the sensors/electrodes/static components needed for the health issue follow the same life+20 years and separate the processing pieces into a container that could still be surgically stored under the skin, but more easily accessed for maintenance, repair, replacement.
Theoretically, this could allow 3rd parties to come in and leverage existing installations by leaving the lifetime components in place and replacing the processing unit.
This could be the beginning of human device engineering standards similar to what IEEE does for computers and technology.
It’s not about designed to function lifetimes. It’s about product support, and there’s no reason why the electronics can’t be supported the same as “inactive pieces of metal.” We’re not talking about surgery to replace a broken component that’s now unobtanium.
I have a family member with an artificial heart and that is a worry of mine, that one day such implants will need you to agree to ToS in order to ensure continued operation.
They likely already signed the ToS while going through the surgery paperwork.
Yeah, until the ToS changes and the manufacturer bricks the heart because they missed a payment. Or said something online they don’t agree with, or joined a group they don’t like or any one of 100 other things.
If your internal hardware is connected to an active internet connection, that’s kinda on you…
Healthcare and profit motive should never, ever be allowed to mingle. That’s how you’re going to wind up with a pacemaker that requires a monthly subscription or even a prescription - meaning if you don’t see an authorized doctor, you can’t keep your pacemaker running. If someone like United Healthcare could do this, they absolutely would.
USA and insulin issue be like
I deal with electrical stuff and it is a different animal. We know our stuff can’t last for decades. All we can do is document it so freaken well that the person who deals with it 20 years later has a shot at it. And unlike mechanical we can’t just tell people to have a bunch of spare on hand because that stuff will rot on the shelf.
If something needs updates and repairs then they should be designed as such. Interchangeable parts, standard interfaces, safe shutdown and removal procedures. Planned upgrade cycles. Etc.
You mean the way industrial controls have been done since the 19th century? This stuff doesn’t just happen, it takes work to make it like this.
Oh for sure! Engineering and standard creation is no easy feat for sure.
Would it not make more sense for a certain standard deviation away from the mean failure time to still meet the lifespan of the longest living patient? Why a flat 20 years?
Like if your product lasts an average of 40 years with a 2 year standard deviation on failure, if your longest living patient uses it for 34 years then you’ve effectively guaranteed it will last for life for over 99.7% of users, even if very few will ever last for 54 years.
👏 OPEN 👏 SOURCE 👏 AFTER 👏 OBSOLETION 👏
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Why not just any tech? It’s already obsolete. Nobody is going to profit from it. Why not let couple nerds tinker with it?
Fuck ANY. ALL or STFU and you have no right to broadcast any kind of deception of the people en masse no less.
Jesus calm down lmao
Stop reading emoji’s in text just because you’re sensitive. Jesus would little to no respect for your emotion inserted into others instead of being a true reading. Because it shows that you’re the ignorant narcissist.
Sure, there’ll be plenty to disagree with me but it doesn’t matter. I’m telling you the truth that you’re broadcasting about your emotional stuckage. IDGAF what people read when there’s nothnng there so I’m going ti ignore what you’re trying to say to me unless you somehow learn to pull the truth, pusher.
What the hell man😂😂 maybe answer to the right comment next time
Edit: unless this really was answer you meant for me in which case I just have no fucking clue what you’re trying to say
Don’t read emotions in words because there are none. I don’t emoji and I do what I can to be technically accurate. Doesn’t stop people from making assumptions about my emotions any time I type.
Stop assuming people have emotions just because you do when reading their words.
IDK, I probably wouldn’t want every anon having access to the source code for my cybereyes, let alone something like a pacemaker. Companies should be legally mandated to maintain devices like these for the average human life expectancy.
Missing the fact Open Source software is generally more secure because more people are looking at the code. You don’t need to see the source to find a vulnerability, you do need it to patch one properly though.
Security through obscurity is not security
It’s definitely one layer of security. If it’s your only layer then you’re in trouble.
Ignorance. You don’t understand any of the philosophy or the conduct of FOSS let alone close source.
But…here…sign right here where the CIA/NSA/FBI/ETC. get any and all right to fuck you over any time the want to for any fucking reason.
They exist to make money not help humanity. Open source don’t make them money so they will never bother
They exist to make money not help humanity.
From the article…
Greenberg spent many years developing the technology while working at the Alfred Mann Foundation, a nonprofit organization that develops biomedical devices
EDIT: For those challenging what I am saying, I was speaking towards his motives, when I responded to this comment …
They exist to make money not help humanity.
I was challenging the notion that he did not care about humanity, and just wanted the money.
Its ok to want to help others AND make money doing it. (Unfortunately) We live in a society where money is needed to exist.
EDIT2: I’m all for open source.
“he spun off the company Second Sight with three cofounders in 1998”
The rest of the sentence from your quote. The company that put these implants into people was, from what I understand, indeed for profit.
Kind of hard to operate a company without also making money doing so. The two are not mutually exclusive to each other.
He should have made it open sauce
Non-profits, just like for-profits, need to keep revenue at or above expenditures. Just like for-profits they end up run by executives who prioritize bringing money in to sustain the bureaucracy over doing good.
Feel free to enlighten them on how to run a beneficial company with no income.
Government grants… A là Lockmart.
Just like for-profits they end up run by executives who prioritize bringing money in to sustain the bureaucracy over doing good.
I’m going to push back against this part of your comment. You are making an assumption. You can do both, help Humanity AND make money (since we live in a society that requires money to exist).
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You’re giving a roundabout justification for regulation.
It should not be their choice when are discussing items/services that impact health this directly. Buy the ticket (release product and profit) take the ride (support for the life of installed user base at least).
Regulation is the only way the capitalist model works. Think about it, limiting capitalism is a majorly important part of making any part of it work because it’s so backwards.
I vote for parties that are pro-opensource and promote opensource among friends and family. It’s all I can do.
What if the party is also for child murder?
And what if the other one who is against child murder is also anti-open source?
This shit should be eminent domained and open sourced. It’s in the public’s best interest to have this tech available and if the people who invested in making it don’t want to support it or sell it to a company that will, they don’t need it anymore.
👏IS👏THIS👏A👏SONG👏SHOULD👏WE👏CLAP👏ALONG👏RAMA👏LAMA👏DING👏DONG👏SONG👏
you better start believing in cyberpunk dystopias
YOURE LIVING IN ONE
Can’t wait to have to get a mandatory firmware update before my eyes or legs or something like that works again. I just hope Microsoft doesn’t get in on the cybernetics business or it’ll randomly happen while driving on the highway or forcefully fill your vision with blinding light for half an hour when you are trying to sleep.
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Somehow, Microsoft has returned.
Still might want to practice on a hot dog or something afterwards though.
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I have some pretty bad news for you, Elon musk is doing cybernetics business with it’s neuralink
I’d take Microsoft shot over anything Musk.
Same
It’s not like all chrome is as sexy sleek as V or Rebecca.
There’s one lore pickup that sticks with me. It’s the “top employers” in Night City. The people who are employed by these 5 comprise the middle class.
spoiler
Arasaka offers the lowest contractual obligation to work for at 20 years.
Biotechnica offers six vacation days a year (current Americans average 11 PTO days at 40 hours a week)
But the above is small potatoes when you read Nightcorp: ONLY(!) 80 hour workweek. For family focused people!
Not being pedantic but also as you walk around look at the lifestyles of the charachters. River and Judy are successful legally employed people, and look at their home situation. Their houses and how much chrome they afford. Their weapons comprise of the very basics. How much tech do they have that wasn’t illegally obtained or had their job pay it off? Judy works mosly with chrome as far as BDs go. River is ex-NCPD, and he only affords prosthetic arms that are reminiscent of Gorilla Arms but it doesn’t have skin or look great - they’re functional. In addition to a prosthetic eye that doesn’t even try to be humanlike, like V’s Kiroshi Optics.
The average citizen puts in an assload of work for their chrome and its hard to sustain yourself. I know they respawn but how many times do you just see Maelstrom on a sidewalk? How many out-and-about Valentinos? Most people can’t afford the nice chrome, or healthcare (as shown by David’s mom) and get by on their bills through theft or violence. Maelstrom chrome is a hack job. Rebecca funded all her work through being part of a successful criminal enterprise. Maine being the reason they even have the connection and payments with Faraday. Compare the Edgerunners chrome to the average Tyger Claw, and it’s easier to see that they are the ideal gang, not the average.
Ez in cyberpunk you have to pay lotta money to stay alive as was showed in anime cyberpunk edgerunners if you’re average human going on average job then you fucked and it’s much much worse than today’s America healthcare
Read this in Scare Tactics voice
Not likely for long enough to acclimate …
Joke’s on you?
