I’m confused, does he actually think a box packer is skilled labor or is this just a whoosh from the girl.
Warehouse fulfillment is skilled labor. Fast food work is skilled labor. I’m having a hard time thinking of an example of a truly unskilled labor job.
Skilled labor is economists jargon, so the meaning of it does not match the dictionary definition.
No one is saying there is literally no skill involved in unskilled labor.
Skilled labor = real human deserving of a fair wage.
Unskilled labor = meat machine that we need to pay by law, but we gladly wouldn’t pay them a dime if we could get away with it because they aren’t real people.
-Asshat Owners
Technically skilled as in requiring education (financed by the state), unskilled can learn on the job within days.
But politics has a way with twisting those words into a us/them dichotomy.
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I’m a software engineer. There’s people on my team that went to Yale for computer science. There’s also people on my team that took a six month coding boot camp. They’re both great at their jobs.
Specifics of software engieneering. Doesn’t work with civil engieneering, electrical engieneering and many other fields.
Some people just can’t be trained to write code. You still need the aptitude at the end of the day.
For me it’s not really an us/them opposition, my disgust is with how unskilled laborers are viewed/treated because of our lack of education. That somehow makes us subhuman and undeserving of a living wage. That we should be thankful for a minimum wage.
I have no issue with skilled laborers, I have an issue with owners/CEO/etc… us laborers of all skills are in the same boat. Best friend works for Intel, Intel makes tons of money, friend gets pay cut and added responsibility. ¿Que?
The problem lies in the fact that we need to categorise these subjects to write more effective policy. And it doesn’t matter what words you use, they always get these connotations as familiarity grows.
To add to this, the whole education level dictates importance thing never made sense to me anyways. I may see a doctor once or twice a year, but I need garbage collected every week. On the level of social importance it strike me then that the garbage person is therefor more important than a doctor.
I think its unintended but by that definition then carpentry or other trades which used to be learned by apprenticeship on the job aren’t skilled?
Education requires no skill, you just kiss professor’s ass and do as you’re told, your reward is a diploma. Here, is that reductionist enough for you?
By the way, cashier job can’t be learned within days, you need to be literate and know at least basic math and average kid goes to school for at least 8 years so fuck you. I can’t even think of a job that requires no education.
Some more sarcasm and condescension
What constitutes skilled labor and who should be paid a living wage are two distinct conversations.
Is it made less difficult to achieve a living wage for everyone by affirming, or by challenging, the practice of characterizing some labor as “unskilled”?
What it does it make you sound like a dunce for pretending like there aren’t many many jobs that require special skills.
What you’re doing is applying manipulative tactics and blatantly lying to further an agenda rather than just applying simple logic and reason. When you do that, you inhibit the cause you claim to support.
You seem to be inserting an appeal to purity, by characterizing certain skills as “special”.
Sure. To the economist the terms are jargon, but to the bootlicker they are sacred words. Your heresy is unwelcome.
Landlord
Close, but that’s not a job. It’s no coincidence that the destructive practice of using your wealth to suck wealth out of society without adding anything beneficial is called Rent-seeking
That requires no labour though.
Warehouse fulfillment and fast food. It takes little education and training. I can be doing it in a week. Tops.
It’s far harder and longer timeframe replacing an engineer for example.
That’s not skilled labor though, that’s white-collar office worker stuff.
A better example would be a lathe operator.
White collar has nothing to do with skilled or not. It’s a calculation on time and cost to replace.
I don’t know anything about lathe operators but it’s very clear that it’s harder to replace engineers vs cooking fast food.
probably the “labor” part
I don’t think the issue is with the term skilled, I think it’s with labor.
Unskilled labor is McDonald’s.
Skilled labor would be like a machinist or a plumber.
It takes a lot of training, maybe an apprenticeship, etc. maybe even vocational school.
You’re comparing the bottom person at a restaurant with a mid level engineer. You should be comparing an engineering intern with a dishwasher or something. Both are somewhat replaceable (but try running anything without them).
Compare an actual engineer with a restaurant manager or head chef. Both of those require experience and education.
An entry level engineer is going to have 2 years of additional math, or coding, or whatever after highschool. I was cooking burgers and running a register at 14. It’s easy to learn. Most people can cook a burger as a part of their existence, no training but the specific way they want. Far far more easy to replace and train.
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Walmart door greeter, maybe?
I think all jobs at least have the potential to be skilled labor. The issue is with many of these types of jobs the work isn’t paid well enough for someone to stick around and really develop the skills.
Obviously there are many exceptions as there are a lot of really skilled workers working jobs that still pay well below what they should but hopefully, with more awareness and union membership uptick, this is improving.
Yep most of the time they just stand there they just watch you walk by. To be fair lots of assholes on this side of town.
I guess one thing I learned reading this thread, there are very few unskilled jobs nowadays.
Maybe old time admin assistants just collating papers, making copies, etc but even then those are really just unskilled tasks moreso than an unskilled job. They also had appointments to set up, calendars and rolodexes to manage, organization, etc.
I think any unskilled job can be made skilled labour if you’re thoughtful about how you do it, and do it well.
Whatever job Eminem had in 8 Mile on the Up/Down button machine?
It’s not and you know it. “Skilled labor” means you have copious amounts of knowledge that directly apply to a specific job.
Anyone can learn to work at McDonald’s in an afternoon, and the people who work there would tell you the same.
You’re gonna tell me catching a stray cat, butchering it correctly and making mincemeat that tastes no different from cow to average customer doesn’t require copous amountso of knowledge?
Don’t get me started on making a dead rat look like a KFC chicken nugget.
This one is just condescension. But the pattern is there
Not sure what kind of analogy you’re trying to make here but all the meat processing happens before it ever gets to the “restaurant”.
No it doesn’t. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kn9EpGqrOE
I’d asume some of the jobs where you just test meds all day doesent require any skill
Skilled labor requires a degree, unskilled labor does not.
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The only one I can think of is the guy that carries the nitroglycerin into the train tunnel when they’re digging it.
It’s so unskilled that if you mess up, you die and don’t even learn a lesson. The job is literally walk without splashing this liquid.
This job doesn’t exist anymore. Human rights and all, but a lot of train tunnels are coated in the blood of “unskilled labor”.
All skilled labor can be represented by the unskilled labor required to recreate it, ie training.
Skilled labor meaning it took more than a twenty minute introduction for the job. If the guy flipping burgers can cook multiple burgers at multiple Temps, than that would classify as skilled labor. They guy that drops the fries in the fryer and just has to wait for the ding, not skilled labor. Another example, a welder who knows how the mixture of gas affects the welds, skilled labor. It’s knowledge of why and how to get to the end result rather than following basic instructions just because that’s what you were told.
Fruit picker, maybe? I know it’s physically hard but is that skilled?
The skill is being able to endure hard labour
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Every single action can be mastered to perfection, then relearned from the basics. There’s endless depth to everything
Fruit picking can be grabbing, twisting/pulling, then putting a thing into a basket. You can do it faster and more precisely to use less energy, you can stack fruits so more fit without bruising, you can change how you walk and hold the basket to strain yourself less. You could relearn it so you toss it all in a basket still on your back, perfectly so they don’t bruise or bounce out of place. You could learn to identify how long until a fruit ripens and chart an optimal path day by day, or even learn to smell them out.
An “unskilled job” is a job where you can get someone up to basic competence quickly. It’s an effort to use people like a fungible unit of man-hours, and to make up the difference by essentially being strategically wasteful.
A better fruit picker will have more and better fruit in less time, a better fast food cook will make a better burger. By standardizing it, you can reduce the floor - you can throw out bruised, under ripe, or overripe fruits. Maybe you can even process the rejects make juice or fruit snacks from them… You can use machines to minimize the cost and chemicals to cover for inferior ingredients
But you also cap the ceiling. An amateur fruit picker or chef can make better food than McDonald’s or Dole, because capitalism doesn’t care about “better”, it incentivizes everything to be “good enough” and punishes quality control beyond that… It’s far more profitable to put more effort into marketing an inferior product than to produce something of higher quality.
And that’s why everything sucks - because it’s more profitable to lower standards than to produce better goods.
We worry about AI alignment with little reason, but we’re blind to the fact corporations are not aligned with human values
So to you what is the difference between a job that requires years of experience to become fully capable vs a job you can pick up and learn within a couple of minutes/hours/days?
You gonna pay your plumber the same as a fry cook?
A nuclear safety engineer as much as a cashier?
Cardiac Surgery M.D. the same as a box packer at an amazon distribution center?
Teacher the same as a universal basic income recipient?
Your fry order being wrong means nothing, the business owner pays for it to be replaced.
The cashier may scan an item twice or miss scanning an item but the nuclear safety engineer stopped that worker who was careless from dying due to radiation exposure.
The cardiac surgery M.D. gave your mom a new heart letting her live another 25 years but with a simple mistake instead she dies on the operating table and the insurance they pay for covers the inevitable malpractice lawsuit. The amazon box packer packs the wrong item so the recipient at worst asks for a replacement, and the business owner replaces the item if it’s a private seller or provides a refund - or amazon ships a brand new one at their expense.
The teacher helped you understand basic concepts of mathematics, geometry, physics, biological processes… the UBI recipient rents their flat in Strasbourg at no cost.
When your definition of skilled labor is basic cognition ability then apparently no labor requires advanced knowledge of concepts that are difficult to understand and the risk undertaken has no tangible value. It’s fine if the cardiac surgeon shows up drunk or high because the fry cook could without anyone losing their life, right? After all, their labor isn’t valuable- anybody can do it because it’s just skilled labor on par with packing boxes.
People are paid based on outcomes of their role and the amount of competition there is in that labor segment. Nurses right now, especially the ones that deal with the real messy cases are an excellent example of great pay and benefits due to a shortage of workers in markets where there is demand (e.g. population centers where nurses are needed.)
Software developers can make 250k++ - why isn’t everyone just doing that? it’s nearly free to learn (need internet and a basic computer) and building a portfolio just requires learning a skill and practicing it. You don’t even need to leave the house. Packing boxes is way harder on your body. Cooking fries or dealing with customers is way messier and no one wants to really do those gigs… so why not just dev? isn’t it an easy “skilled labor”?
That last paragraph is miles away from the truth. Developers are not coders and you need a lot of fundamental knowledge in things like math, logic, design, etc., a degree, very strong grasp of a lot of technical skills, and plenty of practical experience to be worth six figures, much less 250k. Well paid coders are quickly being replaced by either AI, offshore resources, or a combination of both and at the best of times they made half of what you suggested.
If you were able to grind your way into 250k with only a GED and skills you taught yourself off the Internet, consider yourself a unicorn and also an artifact of the past that is basically impossible to replicate now.
A buddy of mine just cracked six figures. He has a degree in development. His degree literally says “programmer analyst”.
Even after all that, he didn’t hit six figures until many years into his career.
programmer analyst
This is more of QA / testing than programming. What title did he start with, how many job changes and what is the current title?
I know TONS of people who went to school for CS but couldn’t cut it because they didn’t sit down and continue learning and building a portfolio to really be the shining star to land the job they wanted. If you count them the average cs major probably gets paid like 40k or some shit. It’s easy to not make it over the bar because you have ADHD, can’t keep enough things in your head, don’t have the work ethic etc.
Also i’m talking US salaries, not other nations. Not working for non profits, schools, startups etc that are low wages.
You misunderstand. That’s what his degree says.
He’s been a developer since starting his career. He has no intention of moving to QA.
He’s spent a lot of time between colleges and universities and holds several diplomas for programming, and even spent time teaching during his degree. He has deep knowledge of programming fundamentals, logic, even dabbled in AI and compiler design, making his own compiler at one point as a project for school.
He’s spent the better part of a decade acquiring the knowledge he has. He’s been a senior developer at several companies, and when he broke six figures, it wasn’t a raise he asked for, nor one he had to change jobs to get. He’s also not the type of person who changes jobs for a raise. He’s had four different employers over the past 5-10 years…
He’s a very smart person and very logical. I feel very privileged to be his friend since highschool.
What school offers a degree in “Programmer Analyst”?
Interesting. I would be happy to get to know y’all
Yeah, no.
It’s a title solely meant to pay less for software engineers, and usually dedicated towards IT folk working with vended products.
I know this because I got a 30k bump when my org remapped people’s titles based on their work, and they really didn’t want to keep losing software engineers.
Software developers can make 250k++
That’s what I said, it’s possible. It’s not everyone. It’s not show up first day after your coding bootcamp with 0 self study and 0 effort outside of an education program. It’s a few years of learning bleeding edge skills.
There have been machine learning roles paying over 150k for someone with 2 years of experience programming and “an interest in machine learning” all this year because of the AI craze. 150k is way beyond low income by all measures and is very realistic for the typical dev after 2-3 roles and fiveish years of experience. every year that goes by someone with practical experience designing and implementing ML projects in business is going to be worth their weight in gold, so long as businesses are willing to pay.
You don’t need a degree for dev. My brother doesn’t have one, he’s doing just fine. He took a boot camp but put WAY more effort in on his own time than a simple course. He did manual labor before the boot camp and made less than a third of what he is paid now. He’s looking at roles that pay well above 100k after less than two years of experience.
Saying that programming roles are being placed by AI or offshore labor is the biggest red flag that exposes that you do not know how things actually work in CS. I will say that going offshore is a thing many businesses decide to do but it bites them in the ass in this kind of position.
The claim was that different kinds of labor require different skills.
Do you have any substantive argument to the contrary?
You gonna pay your plumber the same as a fry cook?
Without first I don’t get water, without second I don’t get food. Yeah.
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I’m sorry you’re unable to do basic plumbing tasks though.
Says who?
You said you don’t get food without fry cooks
OK.
OK.
No, he thinks it’s more work. More work but he was paid slightly more until fast food workers got the bump.
Someone should tell him the harder you work the less people seem to make unless it’s something very specialized.
All Labor is Skilled Labor.
Ask Bezos to work in one of his own warehouses. Ask him to flip burgers. See how long he lasts before he is asked to leave.
Nah nah I agree my guy, but your getting caught up on the social definition. The guy who made the statement, legitimately thinks it takes significantly more skill to pack a box than to flip a burger. Like his definition of unskilled labor just unapologetically includes everyone below him, and all he does is pack fucking boxes. It’s GOTTA be satire.
One skill differs from another qualitatively.
None is higher or lower than another.
I think this is an example of how much the upper crust has done to divide the main ingredients.
Whooosh? I don’t know, but I know what I want to believe.
All labor is skilled labor.
Not when I’m doing it!
💀
I got the joke, but I definitely see why others may have missed it
Yes, but some labor, like McDonalds fry cooks, is also skillet labor.
Well then some labor, like working in certain music industries, is also Skrillex labor.
Mom said to bring home some chicken nuggets.
What kind of fucked up centaur is this?
It’s not a centaur, it’s a leftaur.
All jobs are equal but some jobs are more equal than others.
On a more serious note:
Of course all labor requires some level of basic human capability and as such must pay a living wage. But there is very much a distinction you can draw, based on the amount of training required to perform a job accurately and safely without supervision, and how much background knowledge is required to go above and beyond the daily work, e.g. to respond to emergencies or to further develop e is ting procedures.What is the reason for such a distinction being constructed and becoming entrenched?
Who determines such processes, and who benefits?
Because it’s a convenient way to talk about work. The collective of all who speak the language drives the process of word creation and definition and benefits from it.
The fact that companies pay workers too little is independent from this. I also don’t think that the word itself is “weaponized” so to speak.
For whom is it convenient to discuss work, in the way work is commonly discussed, in our society?
Language both expresses and determines constructs and values in the society using and evolving the language.
Does everyone contribute similarly to language? Is everyone affected similarly?
Guys desperate to put himself above another, with the delusion of throwing shit in a box being skilled labor, instead of standing in solidarity with the mcdonalds worker and demanding more for both of them
If he thinks packing boxes is skilled labor, then flipping burgers is also skilled labor.
It’s just not specialized, and doesn’t require any certification or further education. Which would command the premium he’s thinking of.
All labor is skilled labor. Can you think of any job that doesn’t require learning some sort of skill(s)? It’s just an arbitrary designation intended to justify low wages.
I’m highly educated but you couldn’t just stick me into a traditionally “unskilled” roles for which I have neither experience nor training and expect me to function. I’d crash and burn because jobs require the development and utilization of… wait for it…skills.
Some labor is inherently more skilled than other. I can train you in a day to flip burgers. You’ll be better in a month than you are on day one, but you don’t need hands on training after that first day.
I can’t train you in a month to operate a break press. And in my plant that’s the least skilled job.
I get that all jobs require some skill, I’m not disputing that. But when we’re talking about skilled labor, were talking about those jobs that require significant investment in time to learn, often requiring the laborer to seek that education on their own before even being considered for a job.
I’ve always assumed skilled labor referred to like, electricians and plumbers. Tradesmen kind of positions, the stuff you have to apprentice for. So if you’re a really good plumber or whatever, you can demand a premium on top of whatever your trade normally allows. Whereas this dude could be the best box packer in all of the Amazon warehouses and should never expect a cent more than any of his coworkers, because the job only takes like a week to train for.
Yup. Skilled labor is jobs that require real training. Unskilled labor is like, can be learned to a tolerable level in less than a week
While that’s true, it’s much easier to get someone with formal higher education to learn how to operate a cash register than to get someone without education to operate industrial equipment. In other words, we need more and better formal education for everyone.
In the past, the privileged would be mocked for their lack of capacities in practical activities.
These days, the myth of the meritocracy compels the unprivileged to identify with the values of those by whom they are devalued.
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More reasonably: failed to use /s
I don’t think dude knows what “skilled labor” means.
Seriously. It takes more skill to prepare food than to pack a box.
I think he’s referring to the standard Amazon packer assortment of skills: pissing in a bottle, hiding workplace injuries, sleeping in your car, etc.
You might upset him if you try to taint the good name of the company.
TIL packing boxes is skilled labor
Everything is skilled labour. For 99% of jobs you couldn’t roll up and be proficient at it without training or practice.
But correct me if I am wrong, but in my country skilled labor means you have to have a relevant formal education to qualify for the job, (in addition to getting training on the job which is inevitable).
You are correct.
Yes, all jobs take skill. Unskilled jobs usually mean jobs that require no prior training or experience. They will train you and you will get experience there.
They’re jobs for, currently, unskilled workers. Or at least, workers that do not have a skill they can transfer over to the workforce.
Phrasing means whatever the powerful groups who promulgate the phrasing establish that it should mean.
Yeah, but not all jobs offer training on-site.
If you’re an unskilled worker, you’re only eligible for unskilled positions, i.e. ones that don’t require outside training.
Came to say this. It’s hard labor, sure, but it’s probably the least skilled job there is.
I think (choose to believe) the original tweet is satire.
Oh yeah, calling box packing skilled labor can’t not be satire.
we are in the post-poe era.
Satire is dead.
Reality is far more ridiculous than satire could have ever hoped to be.
Since when is packing boxes a skilled labor?
I think that’s the joke
Everything’s a skilled Labor job if you use your imagination hard enough.
It does get easier, though.
I rather a dude handling my food get paid better than someone touching cardboard.
No balls ony food is preferred over no balls on my Amazon packages.
But what if we could have both?
Think of the shareholders!
Extra cheese flavor all around!
This is the American way though isn’t it? Push downward instead of moving upward. If flipping burgers is easier than packing boxes, and makes you the same money, why not quit at Amazon and start flipping burgers at McDonald’s?
The idea is that apparently it is not necessarily easier to flip burgers, but it requires less skill and training/education than picking items from warehouse shelves and putting them in a cardboard box.
I’ve never worked in a warehouse, but I’d assume there’s no significant difference between the two tasks when it comes to education or training. I’d be pretty pissed off if the guys at McDonald’s were paid the same as me, but I’ve spent years at university and accumulated some debt along the way.
Having done both, this is pots & kettles being pissed at each other for boiling water. Flipping burgers and packing boxes are both trivially easy on their face, and the hard parts of both jobs are accuracy, speed, and figuring out how to get your job done when your capitalist overlords have erased your support staff and passed their jobs on to you.
It’s really easy to flip burgers. It’s fucking hard to take orders, flip burgers, make drinks, and keep the fryer rolling by yourself while also doing freezer pulls to keep everything running.
It’s really easy to throw shit in boxes. It’s fucking hard to throw shit in boxes when you’ve been standing for 10 hours on your day off because of mandatory overtime, none of your equipment is maintained, none of the shit you’re supposed to be packing is where it belongs, and your management who are supposed to make sure that shit gets taken care of are busy sexually assaulting the 18 year old new hires.
Everybody’s jobs suck and corporate skeleton crews are making it worse. The average $15/hr worker in 2023 is doing 3 to 4 workers jobs from 2019. Eat the rich, Unionize, etc…
It’s really easy to flip burgers. It’s fucking hard to take orders, flip burgers, make drinks, and keep the fryer rolling by yourself while also doing freezer pulls to keep everything running.
Not to mention the occasional psycho who wants to pick a fight because there’s no mayo or something
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Pissed at who, is the question
Pissed at “what”. The system.
Pissed at whoever have the least power and are the most harmed by the system.
Why not?
ship it.
I’d be pretty pissed off if the guys at McDonald’s were paid the same as me, but I’ve spent years at university and accumulated some debt along the way.
But for some reason nobody gets pissed when someone whose whole actual job was to fall out of the right va jay jay and directly into the ivy leagues gets paid much more (100x in most cases) what they do to blabber on phone calls about market share or whatever.
McDonald’s workers aren’t the problem at all and nothing about the labor market changes substantially by them being able to afford diapers.
We have wealth hording dragons in this country ruining the whole thing with their wrath and greed and yet everyone’s pissed that some serf got an extra ball of cheese this week.
The tasks are quite different, and so is the training.
Each skill is different, not higher or lower, or greater or lesser, than another.
I agree.
I don’t see anyone arguing for this here.
Why not punch upward, to help fight the powers that punch down on everyone from their heights?
Seems a lot of the comments are focused on debating the word ‘skill’ applied to each job while another capitalist gets off free while infighting amongst people who should be supporting each other in a shit world that capitalism built and benefits off of.
Enshitification is where there’s a CEO somewhere that fucks everyone over and remains untouched.
That person really should be the focus of hate here.
Indeed, in a nominally free-market system, it would be completely irrelevant how much ‘skill’ is involved in a job. All that would matter for pay level is how much money the worker brings in. In an actually-free-market system, it would matter, because companies would have to compete on price, and they could lower their prices by paying less for skills available in abundance.
We don’t have a free-market system of any stripe. We have capitalism, in which the capitalists have been extracting record profits from the efforts of workers at company after company, while real pay has been stuck at the same level for decades. Neither he pay at McDonald’s nor the pay at Amazon reflect skill of the workers or the value they create for the company. It reflects only what the company can get away with.
Enshitification is where there’s a CEO somewhere that fucks everyone…
That person really should be the focus of hate here.
Speaking of which, why is some waged labor characterized as “skilled”, and other not?
How has such a construct become entrenched, and in what context has it been utilized?
A legal definition stating that special training/experience/certifications is required for that job, vs “routine” job functions.
For the guy at Amazon this could be fork lift certs, equipment certs, etc For the McDobalds worker this could be hazardous job training for chemicals, hot work, food prep/food handling training/culinary training, and maintaining the equipment.
Note, both could have job responsibilities “beyond the normal range”.
That is what is intended by the “skilled” description.
I have provided labor to employers using specialized and advanced skills, though I had no formal credentials or training.
Was I an “unskilled worker”?
In a similar position, I’d consider myself a skilled worker in an unskilled role. I do work with hazardous stuff though, so maybe it is defined as skilled even though I didn’t have to go through hours of training.
In my case the role was considered formally as skilled, but demonstration of aptitude on the site and from past engagements was accepted at evidence of my having acquired the skill.
Seems to me like “skilled labor” is some job that cannot be quickly and easily learned by new workers. (Build me a shed is a little less intuitive than grill me a hamburger)
Is there value in characterizing certain kinds of labor as “unskilled”, and if so, who realizes the value, and who imposes the distinction?
Some jobs need education to do and certain qualifications to know overall what needs to be done and when . Either way getting mad at someone for not having the same qualifications but getting paid a living wage is not an ethical basis for a grudge. And the most unethical person in the mix is ignored.
All jobs may be described as you have done.
Again, who imposes such distinctions, and who benefits from such distinctions being imposed?
Sounds like you already know the answer to the questions your asking.
Some have considered such questions more carefully than others.
I am only suggesting everyone consider them personally, before anchoring to any strong opinions.
So long as you get hung up on the catch phrases, those will be the easiest goal posts that get switched.
Just watch, tomorrow it’ll be defined by ‘how much more dangerous’ a job is to create the same infighting rift.
I am only adding that it may be worth considering how particular catch phrases are utilized and become entrenched.
Maybe it should be considered that the amazon worker in the picture would be able to go to his boss and say ‘I could go flip burgers at McDonalds for the same as what you pay me, I want a rise’.
They should absolutely take it upon themselves to go to their boss for their rise. Would be even better if they back off attacking someone who flips burgers and is allowed a living wage to do so. It is unnecessary to kick down.
I’ve never worked in fast food but I’ve been to them and I’ve watched the workers. You can’t tell me packing boxes at Amazon is skilled labor and that shit isn’t.
Also, I’m not entirely sure that putting an item that a machine gives you into a box that the machine tells you to put it in requires more skill than working at McDonald’s.
I don’t really feel great about making fun of the skill needed for low paid jobs. I’m sure it’s not as easy as it sounds.
Edit: there is a left leaning argument that the label of “low skill labor” is used as a cudgel to justify low wages. If you think it’s so easy, try picking fruit for a season. An experienced fruit picker with years of experience will be many times more productive than a newbie.
Both jobs are difficult and worthy of respect, Neither are what you would traditionally consider skilled labor.
It is worth considering how norms and practices become established, or as you say, traditional.
True. Though in this case it’s pretty appropriate. Neither requires specialized education or training beyond normal job training.
While I am glad you opened with agreement, you proceeded then simply to sidestep my suggestion in the substance of your response.
I do agree with the general statement that norms and practices are worth examination after their establishment for continued validity. But this specific case isn’t a great example of a space where such consideration needs a deep dive. But here we are.
For dividing kinds of labor, the difference between skilled and unskilled is reasonably satisfied by my definition. Such designations are logistical. A career advisor in high school probably doesn’t have the time to delve into the nuance of work that requires further education (be it trade school, college, whatever) vs that which can be obtained with a high school diploma (if that) with every student (maybe not the best example, but lets keep moving). Skilled vs unskilled draws a useful, descriptive line for the sake of understanding. It also has the unfortunate effect of implying that skilled inherently deserving of greater respect than unskilled, which is wrong. I would hazard that it’s a wider societal issue that we feel the need to rank ourselves, but that’s a tangent I don’t want to go off onto. There’s an argument for a change in vocabulary to mitigate this (specialized vs general maybe?), but I would think that some terminology would arise naturally regardless as such categories of labor will continue to exist and need description.
Labor is not organized through systems that are natural, but rather through ones that are social.
Terminology is not emergent from systems that are natural, but rather from ones that are social.
You insist particular terminology is useful, but decline to consider carefully for whom it is useful, or for whom it may be harmful.
Do you think career advisors represent the group in society that benefit most substantially from the terminology you characterized as natural and logical? Do you think their work is truly being expedited by its use?
How could you conclude that the reason norms and values have become established is not worth considering for some particular case, despite the utility of doing so in general, while declining actually to consider the particular case about which your reached your conclusion?
I would actually argue that the workers at the burger place have the harder job, because they would actually have to deal with people more and people tend to suck on terms of respect for those in lower-income jobs
Yep service industries jobs just really kill your humanity some days… if you happen to have all the asshole customers on same day you leave freaking pretty exhausted of a day serving shitty attitudedes.
If your boss is good he gives you one customer per year you can punch
I worked at BK in a dark time of my life. It was physically and mentally demanding. You had to memorize the order of every ingredient of every burger and assemble them in the least possible time and there were themed burgers or some shit so you had to re-learn from time to time. Wasn’t exactly un-demanding mentally. From time to time I had to re-arrange big packages in the cold storage for hours. Fun times. Very hectic and demanding job.
Agreed
It’s not making fun of at all. Skilled jobs are the kind of jobs you need to learn a specific skill to do, E.g building contractor. Unskilled jobs are jobs that are simple enough that almost anyone can do, E.g. flipping burgers or packing boxes.
No matter what kind of job it is, the employee MUST be compensated for their work fairly and be given adequate measures such as annual or sick leave to ensure that they remain healthy while working.
I’d rather a system where an employee can vote their bosses out of the job so that the bosses end up working for the employees rather than the other way around. A salary isn’t a gift and neither is labour.
Every job is easy and that’s why he wants someone else to do it instead of doing it himself.
Packing boxes is not skilled labor.
There’s no such thing as unskilled labor. I guarantee you that dude is better than you are at packing boxes. That’s known as “skill”
There is definitely such a thing as jobs that take lots of book learning and tests to get, and jobs anyone can get by applying for them. This semantic fight of “No such thing as unskilled labor” is just going to make people call it something new and politically correct, but it won’t change reality.
It’s not semantics, it’s just refusing to use an inaccurate name. Just because anyone can get a job doesn’t mean anyone can excel at it. Why are you suggesting we should all consent to the lie that unskilled labor exists?
Which is why everyone is an engineer these days. Guy with a mop? Sanitation engineer. Guy who sells stuff all day? Sales engineer. Help desk? No, systems engineer.
Title inflation isnt a big deal but it is silly.
Which are the people who are dominating culture and language, who carry the power to fulfill your prediction?
How do such distinctions and constructs originally emerge, and why do they remain entrenched?
Goalpost moving. You can’t defend the redefining of the word so you attack the people who did define it.
Straw man attack.
Ad-hominem appeal to motive.
I have not advocated for a definition being imposed.
I have encouraged critical inquiry over the emergence and entrenchment of terms and constructs.
You don’t know what those terms mean.
Go encourage the next person who makes the mistake of being polite to you.
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You have not been in fact particularly kind or charitable.
Nevertheless, please advise me over which terms I misused.
I will accept any correction that can be validated.
If you can master it in a week it isn’t a skill. You are redefining the word to make it so broad it is useless to make some ideological point. Also given what I see with Amazon boxes I doubt they can in fact pack better than I can.
That would require lasting a week at Amazon. Anyone who does that is indisputably skilled.
You are describing someone acquiring skills over the course of a week.
An assessment as you have given would depend on, as a basis, the general skills already prevalent within a target population.
Also, it is questionable that someone would not continue to develop skill through practicing a task longer than a week.
Your invocation of a judgment is essentially vacuous, as you have done with the word “master”.
Jesus who are you trying to impress talking like that? Putting shit in a box is not skilled labor in the sense being a plumber or an accountant is. Just because I can’t define the line exactly does not mean there is no line and pointing out that my reasoning isn’t perfect doesn’t make your reasoning correct.
It is unskilled labor because words are defined by consensus.
The line is imaginary, and division by any line is not particularly natural or useful.
What consensus are you imagining? I cannot recall being asked to offer an opinion for any consensus.
Who participated in constructing the consensus? What processes are generally available to challenge the entrenched consensus, or to direct the development of a new consensus?
Which groups have supported such a consensus more strongly than others?
Bullshit lines don’t matter. You clearly act like it does. Do you eat anything randomly or do you have standards of hygiene and taste and nutrition?
Yeah you weren’t consulted. Your whims don’t outrule billions of people who refuse to be ordered to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.
Still goalposting moving, which is also unskilled labor.
You asserted a consensus had been formed.
Who participated in forming the consensus?
Did you participate? Are you benefiting from such a consensus? Would you be harmed by its being replaced?
Why is your tone so protective and forceful?
Skilled labor is something that you need outside training in order to do.
When someone is an ‘unskilled worker,’ it means they’re only eligible for positions that train them.
Nevertheless, a worker who has been trained is a worker who has become skilled.
A worker who has been trained on a job site is worker who has become skilled in work at the job site.
When one has spent half a day learning to pack boxes, then a week learning to do it quick enough, I’ll grant they have acquired a skill. Probably not a transferable skill, but definitely a skill
It’s still unskilled work
Name one thing that doesn’t require outside skill. Literally nothing you know in your life you learned on your own.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, just what people intend to mean when they say unskilled labor.
The “people” who intend to mean that I shouldn’t even be paid aren’t people.
It is not about compensation. If the work is unskilled it is unskilled. How much it should be paid is a different discussion.
The people who invented the term invented it to justify low or no pay
I can’t fathom cognitive dissonance of being able to say unskilled and implying it isn’t equivalent to $0
I have a master’s degree, but I can honestly say working at Wendy’s took just as much skill as what I do now. “People” who use terms like “unskilled labor” are part of the problem. There’s no such thing as “unskilled labor.” I’m agreeing with you.
I only have a bachelor’s degree and can honestly say that there is no way I can do my job without it.
Packing boxes, unless you mean “outside training” to include walking and talking
It’s unskilled in terms that any moderately competent person can do the job and become proficient at it quickly
My skilled job required tertiary education, plus about two years on the job for a person to become good at it
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This commenter’s never had top score on Tetris
The only, truly, skilled labor.
Have you ever received an Amazon package? They are not masters of Tetris
Fry cook or box packer. He upset he picked a harder job?
Did he tho? I’ve cooked and dealt with customers and I’ve packed boxes and packing boxes feels wayyyyy easier to me
You’re good at packing, some folk are better with customers. It’s a skill. And it’s skilled labor.
Grass is always greener.
Ehh. Both have their challenges. I think it’s difficult to say.
What I’m fairly sure of, is that he thinks he’s worth more than a fry cook.
He’s not upset that the fry cook world be making more, he’s upset that he would no longer be making more than a fry cook.
The problem of him thinking his job is more skilled than a fry cook, is entirely another issue that I’m not going to get into.
I like how everyone is upset with the “skilled work” part. But nobody did the calculation, that with Bezos pay and 16 dollars per hour, you could hire 562500 Workers. Which I think is crazy
You can hire way more than that, people don’t work 24/7, but I assume Bezos’ income in this post isn’t based on a peasant workweek.
But Bezos’ earnings are in addition to what Amazon uses for personnel expenditures, so that’s not instead of, it’s in addition to the number of people Amazon already can and does employ. Something like ~1.5 million employees, though that includes higher paid employees as well as the warehouse and delivery personnel.
I think the relevance of the observation relates to how the business’s income is distributed among all those receiving some share.
That is actually pretty nuts.
Imagine having half a million people working under you, and you don’t even need them to turn a profit.
Leave first world nations, and you become a god. Not sure why more billionaires don’t do that.
