• Riccosuave@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    The battle lines are being drawn in the court of public opinion. Now the question becomes how steadfast is the public support behind demanding a peaceful yet forceful resolution to this conflict and finally ending this apartheid regime.

    • SaakoPaahtaa@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Public perception outside Israel has affected a total of 0 policy decisions in the country

        • randon31415@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Um, actually… it currently IS turned off until the house gets it’s act together. Of course, the sink is filled to the brim with soap and plates, so it will be a while before the water runs out - but it will make the genocidal plate scrubbing of Gaza a bit harder without the tap turned on.

        • SaakoPaahtaa@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Israel is too important for the USA’s goals and stature in the area for public perception is the US to change the flow of money.

          And in practise, Israel is not getting money but weapons systems, which is quite lucrative for the US

    • boyi@lemmy.sdf.org
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      11 months ago

      How successful the court of public opinion has been in influencing the outcome of Israel conflict before?

      • wewbull@feddit.uk
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        11 months ago

        Very. Israel has been on several benders that were curtailed due to international opinion. Unfortunately it’s never outrightly solved the issue.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        It was successful against South African Apartheid. There’s a reason conservatives are trying to literally outlaw the BDS Israel movement. (Boycott, Divest, Sanction)

      • gmtom@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Pretty effective. It’s backlash to Israel that has stopped Netanyahu from wiping palestine off the map.

      • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
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        11 months ago

        Israel is a small country that relies on the implicit assumption that Western countries will defend it if a large invasion ever comes to be. If they didn’t need some considerable international support, they would have ethnically cleansed the whole of Palestine already.

        • cannache@slrpnk.net
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          11 months ago

          Imagine how angry and disappointed our ancestors would be knowing that the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door, make millions selling spyware tools and then carpet bomb hospitals because anyone can be a terrorist. Meanwhile Sweden has had literal gunmen attack youth campus.

          Now imagine that you’re actually a hardcore supporter of a Jewish homeland, or Zionism so to speak, and then imagine that this is the hell your government has created and nobody in power could be bothered building a road or a school but depends on a million dollar empire in a faraway land to provide them billions of dollars of weaponry, guns, tanks etc while they claim the country is under 24-7 threat. When you really think about it it’s almost like if it was imaginary or true it wouldn’t matter, because dogma and paranoia overrides any sense of logic with these people, meanwhile they’re literally unironically spreading their little paranoia and fear by knowingly selling spyware to dictatorships to target “dissidents”

          You could have been born yesterday, or be a hundred years old, and you would still have known where energy and LOVE has been squandered

          • SwampYankee@mander.xyz
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            11 months ago

            the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door

            Ignoring the borderline antisemitism there, in reality the people of the region were essentially abandoned by the West to fight it out. The Arab League didn’t like the results of the UN vote, and so riots broke out and the violence escalated into a war in which the Zionists were victorious against 7 Arab nations. To be clear, I’m not saying it was moral or ethical for the Zionists to settle land that was already inhabited by Arabs in the first place (it wasn’t), but that ship had long since sailed by 1948. My point is there was a very serious war over the land and no one was “given” anything. After the war, the Western powers agreed to enforce the 1949 armistice borders, and began supporting Israel materially because they were seen as a counterpoint to Soviet-Arab relations.

            It follows that the point of support for Israel has never been “love, peace and prosperity”, but a geopolitical calculation, and one that has been wildly successful in maintaining Western hegemony in a region of the world that has never been particularly receptive to Western liberalism. Because of its geopolitical positioning, Israel is under constant threat, as evidenced by the Six Day War, two Intifadas, the bus & cafe bombings of the 90s & 00s, and the frequent rocket attacks of more recent times. Yes, they are under attack because they are unwelcome in the region due to their history of violence against native Arabs, but that doesn’t make the fear of Israelis irrational or paranoid - just hypocritical. It doesn’t justify the violence, but it does perpetuate it.

            And so the clearest route to peace was through the normalization of relations between Israel and its Arab/Islamic neighbors, leading to a gradual detente and eventually a regional consensus. This latest flare-up of the conflict is a major setback in that effort, though, and speculatively, that aspect of it may be intentional on the part of Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.

        • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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          11 months ago

          And if support for Israel stops Palestine and countries like Iran will kill everyone they can in Israel and the country will be replaced by another extremist country lead by terrorists.

      • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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        11 months ago

        They probably mean forceful as in strong, not nonviolent. Like the world needs to band up and tell Israel to cut their shit out like they did to South Africa.

        • cannache@slrpnk.net
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          10 months ago

          And I remember that Mandela died until one day I flicked on the telly and found out apparently not

      • Omega_Haxors
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        11 months ago

        Peace is NOT the same as nonviolence, and you have all of history to prove that. Incapacitating a murderer is a peaceful act of violence.

        • cannache@slrpnk.net
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          10 months ago

          Remind me who gave Israelis the right to their homeland and international recognition of statehood again?

          I vaguely remember it was given, just like how language was given to us. And it can all be taken away. Everything. All taken away and destroyed. Without mercy.

      • MataVatnik@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Israel has full political and military control of Palestinian land. They control every aspect of their lives. Remember when Jewish people where placed into ghettos and they each had different insignia that would indicate where they were from and were they could travel and what freedoms they had? Israel does the same thing with palestinians.

      • Clymene
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        11 months ago

        If you don’t want apartheid and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, then you want to rape festival-goers. Those are the only two choices!

  • Gazumi@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Palestinians asking for a homeland. They are at home and have been invaded for over 70 years

  • Clbull@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    I’m from Bristol. Haven’t seen a single Israeli flag or show of support for Israel in this conflict, but I have seen loads of Palestinian flags waved around, and even witnessed a march last week.

    I think public opinion has drastically changed in favour of Palestine.

    • Necronomicommunist@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      11 months ago

      Israel has the support of powerful governments the world over, it doesn’t need the support of a hundred thousand marchers. This is why they get away with what they’ve done for decades.

      • Tony@lemmy.stad.social
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        11 months ago

        Same as for South Africa, basically. Segregation started in 1908. Formal apartheid in 1948. Full on boycotts with government support late 1980’s, and 1990 the regime fell.

    • masquenox@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I’d say we’re looking at a generalized propaganda failure here all across Europe and most of the world - ten years ago you were banned off any sizable English-language forum for calling Israel genocidal… that’s simply not the case any longer.

        • masquenox@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I’d say that’s a big factor to it, yes. And it’s not just in regards to Israel - the people at the top had the information tap perfectly in hand until the internet came around to spoil all that. That’s why you see so many attempts to clamp down on the internet - everything from AI surveillance to Phony Stark taking a $44 billion hit to “fix” sites like Twitter.

    • cannache@slrpnk.net
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      11 months ago

      I think a large part of the issue is that the settlements themselves are actually a reflection of Israel failing to develop vertically. Even without picking a side, even if we ignore the ridiculous hypocrisy of Israel for selling literal spyware tools like Pegasus for the Saudis and other dictators to use on their own citizens and commit murder, the reality is that Israel’s current problem with terrorism is entirely of their own making, because they’ve funded settlements and wasted time and money when they’ve had more than 20 years since the Nakba, Fatah and had millions of dollars of US funding and done fuck all. Mate, you could be a hardcore Zionist and supporter of the state of Israel, and still think that they’ve done a shit job.

    • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Good, pity the people’s views are seldom represented in government

    • Sunfoil@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Bristol has a very left wing lean, I’ve seen the graffiti around. It’s a vocal minority. Public opinion is mainly indifference but condemnation of both sides, maybe a bit on Israel’s side right now. The way Hamas has conducted themselves I would argue has seriously damaged the perception of the Palestinian cause.

      • Clbull@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Fact that it’s even that close when there’s a lot of Western bias towards Israel and with how Muslims are often painted as terrorists by the media is a testament to how badly Israel fucked up.

        • Mrkawfee@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Also that was before the videos of kids being murdered and traumatized started streaming in. Although MSM buries these because the UK is pretty much an Israeli proxy now.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        My experience is the opposite.

        I have a lot of Jewish friends and live in a place with a lot of Jewish people, and I see plenty who support Israel and have no problem being loud about their unequivocal support for Israels response. While the comments from my Jewish friends who don’t support the response have been much more muted. Except for one girl who is pretty pissed that her suffering from the attacks is being used to justify what she calls is atrocities against the civilians of Gaza. My neighbor even told me over drinks this weekend that he keeps his mouth shut about it because he fears the retaliation (primarily social) from his Jewish community about the fact that he strongly disagrees with Israel’s response.

      • letsgocrazy@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        That’s not the reason.

        The reason is because Israel decided to squander any good-will they had by launching a massively disproportionate attack. Public sympathy was with them for while.

        • masquenox@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          The reason is because Israel decided to squander any good-will

          There’s a very big difference between “good will” and “luxuriously-funded propaganda” - every measure Israel has taken against Palestinians in the last seventy years has been “massively disproportionate.”

        • MataVatnik@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          You are getting downvoted but you are objectively correct. It only took a few days for Israel to squander any goodwill they had after the attack. And they’ve been squandering good will for decades. I grew up in a Jewish community and it’s amazing to see how fast they destroy sympathy for their cause, if I didn’t know any better I would think it’s self sabotage.

    • boyi@lemmy.sdf.org
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      11 months ago

      Genuine question: How many, in term of proportion, if you can estimate, of the protesters are non-Muslim, or simply say white people/Chinese etc? I am saying this because they’re a lot of Muslims living near cities, especially London, Manchester and Birmingham. Having many muslims protesting for the Palestinians is no brainer, as they share the same values. It’s much more impactful if the protesters are consisted of many different religious demographics.

    • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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      11 months ago

      Removed. I’ll try to make this as simple to understand as possible… You can’t advocate against the genocide of a people by promoting the genocide of another people. I don’t care if the argument is “Palestinians need to die so Israel can exist.” Or “Israel needs to die so Palestinians can exist.” Neither view is acceptable.

      • Octagon9561
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        11 months ago

        Israel is not a people. It’s a genocidal fascist neocolony. Palestine needs to be decolonized. I’m not advocating for the genocide of French people when I’m saying that Algeria needs to be free. The same applies to Palestine.

    • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      So how, exact, do you see the process of making Israel not exist proceeding? Genuinely, I’m curious. Do you really see absolutely no way for a state of Israel to exist in some fashion without the genocide of Palestinians? If not, then what exactly are you proposing?

    • Fades@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Edit: keep upvoting the comment that literally is calling for the end of Israel as they “don’t have the right to exist” using some shit strawman with Palestinian genocide as a fulcrum as if that’s what Israel is. The is gov does not define the people just like Hamas doesn’t define Palestine. Are you fucking kidding me?

      Israel doesn’t have the right to exist? What kind of brain dead shit are you talking about??

      Israel absolutely deserves to exist, they were placed there after they themselves were genocided. THAT is the problem, they were placed there and it’s fucked everything.

      Israel absolutely deserves to exist just like Palestine.

      If Israel’s very existance is dependent on the genocide of Palestinians, and it is, then it doesn’t deserve to exist. Rights are for people, not countries so kindly stop saying that “Israel has a right to exist”. It doesn’t, Palestinians have a right to exist without being killed and ethnically cleansed from their native lands.

      Jesus fucking Christ, how are you this fucking stupid? Israel’s existence is not dependent on the genocide of Palestinians, that’s just a bullshit strawman you just pulled out of your ass so you could knock it down. Rights are indeed for people but guess what, when people say Israel deserves to exist they’re talking about the Israeli people. Those people deserve to not be killed or ethnically purged from their homes as well, the difference is the Israel never should have been placed there. But guess what they were. So what do the Israeli citizens do? If we ask you, I guess your stance is go fuck themselves because of what the Israeli gov has done over the many years. Do you not see how reductive and fucked that is?

      Personally, I have always been a free Palestine supporter and a strong hater of Israeli gov but the mindless emotional backlash like the one in your comment only enables more hate and bullshit. Israel deserves to exist they just don’t deserve to exist on other people’s lands. That’s a big fucking difference to the emotional bullshit you vomited out. When you say “it (Israel) doesn’t (have the right to exist)”, it sounds quite similar to the Hamas goal of the extermination of Israel. Hamas doesn’t represent the Palestinian people, yet here you are with this bullshit. No, I’m not saying if you don’t suck netanyahoo’s dick you’re an antisemite, I’m saying if you seriously can’t see that there are an insane number of innocents on each side of this conflict, then you are lost and unreasonable.

      • Octagon9561
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        11 months ago

        Aha and why does Israel deserve to exist exactly? I couldn’t care less if every single country in the world disappeared tomorrow. Again, rights are for people, not countries and if your statehood relies on genocide and ethnic cleansing, it needs to go. Call me sympathetic to Hamas talking points all you want. I certainly don’t support their ideology but at the end of the day, one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter and armed struggle against an occupying force is legal under international law. Hamas isn’t even recognized as a terrorist organization by the UN. Hamas could be flowerpower hippies and they’d still be called “terrorists” by Israel and its allies. Really shows how meaningless that word has become.

    • CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      British media likes to undersell any and all protests, they typically take their photos at the end when there’s a much lower number of people and then knock at least half off the number of people who attended. Oh and if one person brings a joke flag/banner then you better believe pictures of that from different angles will be all over the place rather than any pictures of actual protestors.

  • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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    11 months ago

    Hardly surprised, the tube outlet right under parliament had pro palestinian posters last I was there

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldB
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    11 months ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    The shipment of 20 trucks bringing medical supplies offered limited relief to Gaza’s 2.3 million population, under fire and with barely anything to eat or drink.

    The home secretary, Suella Braverman, has previously labelled the slogan antisemitic and claimed that it is “widely understood” to call for the destruction of Israel.

    A small group of protesters held a separate demonstration in central London on Saturday in which a large banner read, “Muslim armies, rescue the people of Palestine.”

    The Met said it was deploying 1,000 officers to police the demonstration, as well as mounting extra patrols around synagogues and places of worship following a 1,350% increase in hate crimes against Jewish people and a 140% rise in Islamophobic incidents.

    The Met said there had been “pockets of disorder and some instances of hate speech” in the series of vigils, protests and public gatherings, but that most had “been lawful and taken place without incident”.

    In Australia, thousands marched through central Sydney after police gave the event the green light, and rallies were also held in Perth, Hobart and Brisbane.


    The original article contains 666 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 73%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

  • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
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    11 months ago

    Serious question: would this be historically considered Casus Belli for Israel to declare war against the UK?

        • cannache@slrpnk.net
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          11 months ago

          I don’t think there are many people that are seriously pro hamas, just benign or neutral, in respect to the fact that one side which has a large collection of groups working together, the Israeli defense force and US government etc, etc yet has kind of made some blunders and has not played their cards very well.

          Even for the USA, after 9-11 and Iraq, when they moved ahead with invading Afghanistan, there was still an attempt to spend some time with negotiation and “state building” despite being seen across the world as barbarian invaders. See, the gift of being ignorant but having a lot of guns is that you don’t have as much weight on your shoulders if you screw up, the biggest project could be a highway, but for Israel, they’ve had a lot of international support and has had more than 50 yrs to resolve the Palestine question, I think it’s quite fair to say by now that they’re kind of bulldozing just to act like they have easy answers because they have an urban growth problem now more than an actual terrorism problem.

          Ironically the fact that they now have a terrorism problem is more a symptom of government incompetence than terrorists actually actively seeking to destroy the state of Israel

          To be blunt, even a Zionist here would understand that it’s not about being for or against the state of Israel having a right to exist, it’s about the issue of the IDF failing to resolve real issues with terrorists while essentially turning a blind eye to repeated problematic behaviours.

            • cannache@slrpnk.net
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              11 months ago

              Warmongers unintentionally keep each other employed, what a suprise, truly a potential future case of systems producing human displacement as a means of sustaining other systems

    • livus@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      @rivermonster

      LOL that any brit has the guts to be out there protesting when literally they are one of the founding pillars of the conflict

      Wait, are you saying that people should never protest against something their country is doing/was involved in?

      • notenoughbutter
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        11 months ago

        I mean, how is the democracy in Israel?

        I hear the media is somewhat free there

        Israelis should’ve taken some action the past years

    • DerisionConsulting@lemmy.ca
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      11 months ago

      The most charitable view:
      To show western governments that the population doesn’t just blindly side with the Israeli government. A major difference between the two sides who are committing heinous acts, is that one side is a government committing genocide, and the other is a military organization (not the government) which was made in response to being forcibly expelled from their land by that government.
      Neither side should be killing innocent civilians, but we should not be collectively taking Israel’s side, like is traditionally done.

      The least charitable view:
      Because people want to get away with yelling Nazi-shit in public.

    • SCB@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Mostly to vent out anti-Semitic frustration in a way that is politically viable

      • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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        11 months ago

        Don’t confuse criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism. Otherwise you’re just saying “Israel can do no wrong, even if they’re doing war crimes.”

        • Shadywack@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Maybe if terrorists didn’t hide behind human shields, Israel would’ve been accused of far less war crimes. Grabbing a toddler after setting off a bomb and murdering a crowd is basically Hamas’ strategy.

          • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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            11 months ago

            Maybe if Israel hadn’t been doing everything they could to drive Palestinians from their land for decades they wouldn’t have helped grow these terrorist groups that are lashing out at them.

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                11 months ago

                Tit for tat ever since… with Israel receiving plenty of international support and an Iron Curtain supplied by the US.

                It doesn’t matter if Mike and Steve have been going at each other since Elementary school. If Mike grows up to be Mike Tyson and Steve grows up to be an accountant, then Mike is the bigger asshole if he keeps coming around to punch Steve in the face, and screams “See? He deserves it! Both Sides!” if Steve gets lucky sucker punch in on occasion.

            • Shadywack@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              All I see from you is pro terrorist bullshit. Fuck Hamas and I hope Israel kills every Hamas sack of shit out there. Hamas at this point could do the right thing and surrender, and spare the civilians, but they’re too cowardly to do that.

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                11 months ago

                All you see from me is Anti Israeli Government bullshit. When the Israeli government spends decades committing crimes against humanity the end result is not a surprise. When no one listens to the suffering of Palestinians what options are they left with?

                • Shadywack@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  I call bullshit, on several fronts with what you said. Decades of crimes against humanity is unsubstantiated. What you call crimes against humanity is likely debatable at best and an outright lie at the worst. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I agree with the sentiment that “Palestinians” are an invention from the last century. You have people who moved to the area under the Ottoman Empire, and the world decided back in 1947 that Israel shall again be a nation. When you have the despicable acts of the PLO and extremist organizations spring up from what appeared to be peaceful coexistence, this narrative about the light of Palestinians and the “freedom fighters” who cut infants’ heads off can go pound sand.

                  I don’t want the innocents harmed either, but I do believe Hamas must be exterminated. If that means flattening a building that they’re hiding in and using human shields, so be it. The people who support Hamas are making their bed, and we should not be surprised by the humanitarian crisis going on when the cowardly Hamas militants hide behind innocent families.

                  Exterminate Hamas, that’s my take on it. Don’t like it? Too fucking bad, it’s going to happen anyway and you can wring your lying hands all you want.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Well if that isn’t the most outlandish illogical leap I’ve seen in a while…

        • SCB@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          In London, some of the protesters chanted, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, despite a controversy around the slogan’s meaning.

          From the article.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Nothing antisemitic about that. Wouldn’t matter what race, religion, ethnicity the apartheid occupiers were.

    • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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      11 months ago

      LGBTQ people being pro-palestine might be the weirdest thing I’ve seen in a public demonstration.

      • wewbull@feddit.uk
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        11 months ago

        Does pro-“the defense of the innocent” and pro-human rights make more sense to you.

        • Five@slrpnk.net
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          11 months ago

          Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners also received a lot of backlash from the British LGBT community for supporting a group that was stereotyped as homophobic and intolerant. And yet:

          The alliances which the campaign forged between the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community and British labour groups proved to be an important turning point in the progression of LGBT matters in the United Kingdom. Miners’ labour groups began to support, endorse and participate in various gay pride events throughout the UK, including leading London’s Lesbian and Gay Pride parade in 1985. At the 1985 Labour Party conference in Bournemouth, a resolution committing the party to the support of LGBT rights passed, due to block voting support from the National Union of Mineworkers. The miners’ groups were also among the most outspoken allies of the LGBT community in the 1988 campaign against Section 28.

    • superguy@lemm.ee
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      11 months ago

      Seems like they’re trying to shoehorn their cause into another.

    • Maeve@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      Since many of us left Reddit without any desire to give them traffic, could you please put a warning with your link?