Highlights: A study this summer found that using a single gas stove burner on high can raise levels of cancer-causing benzene above what’s been observed from secondhand smoke.
A new investigation by NPR and the Climate Investigations Center found that the gas industry tried to downplay the health risks of gas stoves for decades, turning to many of the same public-relations tactics the tobacco industry used to cover up the risks of smoking. Gas utilities even hired some of the same PR firms and scientists that Big Tobacco did.
Earlier this year, an investigation from DeSmog showed that the industry understood the hazards of gas appliances as far back as the 1970s and concealed what they knew from the public.
It’s a strategy that goes back as far back as 1972, according to the most recent investigation. That year, the gas industry got advice from Richard Darrow, who helped manufacture controversy around the health effects of smoking as the lead for tobacco accounts at the public relations firm Hill + Knowlton. At an American Gas Association conference, Darrow told utilities they needed to respond to claims that gas appliances were polluting homes and shape the narrative around the issue before critics got the chance. Scientists were starting to discover that exposure to nitrogen dioxide—a pollutant emitted by gas stoves—was linked to respiratory illnesses. So Darrow advised utilities to “mount the massive, consistent, long-range public relations programs necessary to cope with the problems.”
These studies didn’t just confuse the public, but also the federal government. When the Environmental Protection Agency assessed the health effects of nitrogen dioxide pollution in 1982, its review included five studies finding no evidence of problems—four of which were funded by the gas industry, the Climate Investigations Center recently uncovered.
Karen Harbert, the American Gas Association’s CEO, acknowledged that the gas industry has “collaborated” with researchers to “inform and educate regulators about the safety of gas cooking appliances.” Harbert claimed that the available science “does not provide sufficient or consistent evidence demonstrating chronic health hazards from natural gas ranges”—a line that should sound familiar by now.
Capitalism is such shit…
It really is…it’s outlived it’s usefulness and needs to go the way of the horse drawn carriage.
What is the better solution? What country has implemented something better than capitalism?
A system that fully accepts environmental realities and works against the wholesale ecocide of the planet as it’s first tenet. The rest is kinda whatever at this point. It could be a resource based economy or some sort of mixed planned/free market. Just gotta make sure that invisible hand doesn’t strangle us all in our sleep, ya know?
A climate-focused approach can be built into any economic system. This isn’t really an argument for ditching the economic system that has led to the least human suffering.
Saving the planet and endless expansion are simply not compatible. The way we are living is going to kill us all, and it’s just a fact. There are finite resources and the pollution and by products are not going away.
I mean you ever think about how much waste there is from regular everyday things like junk mail? From having to spend fuel on a tractor to plant trees to harvest paper and then process it into paper to then print the bullshit ads on the junk mail and then it has to be delivered and that causes more pollution and then you just put it straight in the garbage.
Or how about the plastic bag they give you with every purchase at literally any store? Those things don’t go away. And we are endlessly producing them, because that’s how capitalism works. You have to increase profits. That’s the whole point.
You can’t reconcile capitalism and the environment.
Seems like cradle to grave pricing would address the issues you mention.
We are still back at what’s the alternative? Planned Economies are notorious for not being able to predict the right things to produce, and that tended to massively misallocate resources too, arguably worse, but at best in a different way.
Corruption also just seems to be a human thing and in planned economies people still snuggle up to politicians in corrupt ways, just with a different veneer.
We also have tried regulation on capitalism - capture happens. We tried liberalization of communism and we got modern China.
I think tribe based society might be the only ones I’ve heard of that focus on sustainably living, but that loses out to larger societies force / power, and I haven’t seen a way to scale that up.
I really don’t think you can just point at China and completely rule out a system as a concept. It’s also worth noting that communism is the antithesis of capitalism. Why do you think that America aggressively attacked every country that’s ever tried it? If we didn’t attack them straight on, we ran a proxy war against them.
And just because the like 78 people that will see this thread don’t have the answer doesn’t mean that there isn’t one. This is obviously a massive and complex issue that will likely only be solved by all of the worlds power working together.
You can’t just say “Oh we don’t know what to do about this, so I guess we shouldn’t change anything at all”. We can still be taking smaller steps.
Just simple things like better public transit will do a lot. Stronger EPA restrictions on just about every industry would go a really long way.
We haven’t tried the one thing everyone’s asking for. Why is it that every time someone mentioned something like this, your minds immediately go to China, the Soviet Union, etc. And not any of the successful social democracies in Europe? Programmed much?
You do realize that capitalism itself is only a few hundred years old. There have been any number of other systems throughout history. And objectively capitalism hasn’t been any better than many of them. There’s been lots of differing circumstances under which they’ve all operated. It’s also arguable that capitalism enables and demands the worst of human nature.
It’s the basic premise of capitalism that it values capital over everything else. It’s in the very name. Socialistic theories of which there are so many outside leninism. Values, society and people more. You can still have markets. You can still have currency. Those things all predate capitalism and are not tied to it in any way. But having a robust social safety net and basic provisions for society always goes much better than leaving everyone to fend for themselves as the oligarchs gorge themselves on stolen wealth.
Also popping in to say you might get some mileage out of a book like The People’s Republic of Walmart, it’s neat, barring the stinky economist bullshit that pops up from the fucking cato institute as soon as you look it up on google.
A climate-focused approach can be built into any economic system
That’s worked super well so far
I feel like least human suffering is a rather insane statement with for-profit healthcare a thing. Or, you know, slavery.
How many people die every year to housing insecurity? To inadequate access to healthcare? How many people suffer because they can’t afford not to?
Absolutely ludicrous.
Or all the suffering that has been and will be caused by climate change on behalf of the shareholders
Regulated capitalism. Prosecuting corruption.
Regulated capitalism. Prosecuting corruption.
Right, regulate capitalism… by regulating the capitalists that have all the money and can buy the regulators any time they feel like it.
Sounds legit.
It was four words dude. I know it hurts, but try reading all of them.
deleted by creator
Well considering all it would take is knocking out the few corrupt people at the top that monopolized the industry that means it’s too fragile a system and bad design. So really it should be replaced. They are after all responsible for setting the pace of stolen wages, slave workers, lack of ethics and the reason why unions are a thing.
England trying to take over the world should have been the example on what to avoid.
deleted by creator
The problem is the mere existence of the state. Without a state, there’d be no politicians to buy.
Most would not agree. Capitalism has only existed for a few hundred years. We got along fine before it. And we could get along fine after it. The fact that you think that most on Lemmy just want to throw it out and that it would be disastrous. Just really only underscores you have very little idea of what capitalism is effectively. And that is a flimsy justification for a ruling class. Decoupling divine right , or rule by blood from wealth and power. Now wealth and power is the only measure that justifies who should be wealthy and powerful. Completely disregarding the fact that those who tend to be the most powerful and most wealthy are also some of the most immoral and harmful people society has ever produced.
But for a moment, I’ll humor this uneducated hot take of yours. What exactly is it that you think, objectively that is unique to capitalism that sets it apart and makes it beneficial from all other systems before it. Just a reminder. Currencies and markets existed thousands upon thousands of years before capitalism was even mangled malformed from the muck and sewage under the seat of merchants.
Marx figured it out 160 years ago. Spend some time and learn about it. Did the Wright brothers have to fly in a plane before they built one?
Marxist ideas just don’t seem to work in practice. You have to have a revolution that is authoritarian to force the change, and then the people in power never give it up willingly. Almost no one ever does.
But even if you did an ideal Marxist transformation, you have the huge economic problem of figuring out what to produce and where to distribute it. This is an impossible task for a committee to manage at a national scale. Capitalism outsources figuring that out to every transaction. Even when a company gets it wrong, it’s limited to that company or sector. But in planned economies when they get it wrong, it’s the entire economy. It’s all great depressions and no minor corrections.
Whats worse is you lose a lot of choices - at best a good hearted technocrat is telling you what to make and what you will get. At worse you get famines because of mistakes in prediction.
This has all been debunked. Particularly, Second Thought has a great video on planned economies if you are interested. Cybersyn in Chile would have worked if capitalism and the CIA hadn’t planned a coup.
Edit: Cuba is still going strong after 60 years despite sanctions and embargoes. To say Marxism/ socialism doesn’t work is a bit superficial and certainly not true.
Why not move to cuba…
Ergo decedo. Why don’t you learn why that’s a bad argument?
I love that you seem to think that it’s just as simple as pick up and move to the country you like. As if the red carpet in all other countries was always rolled out just for you. Let me guess, American? Can anyone just pick up and move to the US? Or the EU? Heard of all the crap around ‘migrants’? You don’t think you’d be considered a migrant if you wanted to move to Cuba, with all the restrictions that would entail? Or do you just assume that the whole world is just dying to welcome you to settle in their countries?
Why don’t you move to Somalia?
It’s pretty ignorant to act like we know it doesn’t work. If you’re having a race and one racer has his shoes tied together, do you really know who was fastest? Nearly every time a leftist government has been installed the US intervenes to ensure it doesn’t succeed. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d’état
The US feared a successful “communist” country, so they toppled the democracy and installed a dictatorship more aligned with US business ideals. If it’s guaranteed to fail, why was the US so scared of them succeeding?
The fact of the matter is the only countries that could survive the US attempting to topple then were countries with a strong central power and cultural hegymony. Those aren’t requirements to exist, they are requirements to outlast US intervention.
Why would non-capitalist countries need capitalist countries to do well? We have had very large non-capitalist countries, like the USSR. Can a country that size not do well if there aren’t capitalist countries to help it economically? What size does a non-capitalist country need to be to not have to rely on capitalist countries?
What?
I’m assuming you didn’t read my comment. They don’t need capitalist countries. They just are never given a chance by capitalist countries to even try to be successful. Capitalists are scared of the status quo changing, so they undermine any non-capitalist country. Why do they always do this, without exception, if they’re so certain they’ll fail regardless? Obviously it’s because they know they aren’t guaranteed to fail.
Feudalism is such shit.
What is the better solution? What country has implemented something better than Feudalism?
You, with a time machine, probably.
Reactionaries mad
Everyone’s gonna be like, oh the USSR, or venezuela, or whatever type of fully nationalized country that’s got embargoed to shit and has either gone under or has gone the way of cuba and just kind of lives with it. And I’m not gonna waste your time trying to convince you about how all those countries are actually great or yadda yadda ya. Instead, I wanna turn you on to a couple neat things. First, would probably be the Zapatistas, who are a pretty cool kind of anarchist group that tends to function well mostly independent of the mexican government. Kind of hard to find information on them, but they’re neat and I think outside of the general preconceived notions that people have against the idea itself, it’s hard not to empathize with opposition to the mostly corrupt and totally fuckied mexican government. There’s also, for your consideration the Mondragon Corporation, a co-operative that employs 80,000 people and rivals the size of probably a mid-sized country. If you’re just taking issue with power structures themselves, rather than the monopoly on violence or the borders said to define a country as different from a corporation, than that’s kind of an interesting counterpoint to like, global capitalism. Kind of ironic that they’re, you know, a corporation, but then the structure of the corporation is different enough as to call into question whether or not the insane wealth disparities of corporations that americans are generally used to are required. But then, the surrounding stuff also has some problems, because the corporation itself has been criticized for employing contract workers, much like a state might employ immigrant labor or outsourced labor, reaping the rewards but giving none of the benefits, kind of creating an internal sense of “nationalism” in the corp. But then, I suppose, let us not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
What country isn’t at least mostly capitalist?
Capitalism is industrialised greed, it keeps the wheels turning, having people forever chase shit that they don’t need for the sake of feeling better than the man stood next to them. What an inspirational ladder to climb.
You’re under the misunderstanding that it works.
You’re under the misunderstanding that it works.
Again, what works better? What country has implemented a better economic system?
paradism dot org
It’s more the sociopaths running the companies that are shit. They don’t give a damn about the people they exploit and the harm they cause. And every institution’s got their share of them, not just businesses.
And they’re in the positions they are because of capitalism. Capitalism dictates you should exploit as much as possible to increase profits.
they’re in the positions they are because of capitalism.
More specifically, they are in them because of human nature. Those who don’t care about others gravitate towards positions of power. That is not exclusive to capitalism. Any hierarchy is prone to sociopaths rising to positions of power. They seek them no matter what the economic system is.
In other words, power corrupts. People without power who get power inevitably start to act like sociopaths.
But feel free to blame capitalism if you like. It is the cause of many problems with our society. Any change that decreases its power should be welcomed at least in the context of American society.
It isn’t exclusive to capitalism or caused by it, but it is exacerbated by it. It is a system that rewards the worst parts of humanity. I never claimed it to be the cause, only part of the issue.
If it’s inherent to hierarchy, how about we work to remove as much hierarchy as possible. That’s my preference.
There are other forms of political economies without hierarchies. I once thought human nature was the problem like you, until I discovered David Graeber. David Graeber dismisses the notion that humans are inherently selfish. Society and culture shape our selfishness due to material needs. Capitalism shapes society and culture.
The recommended book The Dawn of Everything looks interesting. I’ll have to add it to my reading list.
There are other forms of political economies without hierarchies.
Would you mind giving some examples of them?
I was using human nature as a catch all term for how humans act on a population wide scale in our current society. I think the term status seeking fits better than selfish. Status seeking behavior is essentially seeking power within a hierarchy. It often is selfish, but isn’t necessarily.
Most people in a society and in an organization aren’t status seeking or selfish, but those few who are status seeking are rewarded by the going up the hierarchy faster relative to their peers.
That’s a political system not an economic system.
There are a wide range of economic systems that I would be broadly categorized on 2 factors.
- market vs planned economies
- social vs private ownership
For example, the US would tend towards a privately owned, market economy in most sectors.
On the other hand, Norway (or Vietnam to a degree) would trend towards a socially owned, market economy.
An example of privately owned, planned economy would be China. However, China would probably claim to be a socially owned, planned economy. I classify it as privately owned because of the authoritarian control the government has over assets and people.
These are broad generalizations of economies that do not apply to every sector of each economy.
Thank you. I tire from excuses for capitalism.
I don’t think it’s going away ever. We need regulations that require companies to have greater, more powerful ethics oversight. Launching fake research like this should be criminal.
It’s like everything is lies or something, that sure is surprising in a world where the only important thing is money. It’s like its an inevitable consequence or something. Like we shouldn’t have organized our society this way
fuckin shocking
I was told that the free market would naturally remove any bad actors… I guess we just have to deal with half a century of collateral damage before that happens.
That’s when they roll out the “it’s not really a free market” argument.
Within one hour of your comment. As if summoned…
Unironically, that’s the problem.
Half a century? This kind of thing has been going on much longer than 50 years…
It’s a strategy that goes back as far back as 1972, according to the most recent investigation.
Was basing it on that from OP.
Of course these fundamental issues with capitalism are inherent to the system, and in general, began long before 1972.
It’s not a free market.
It’s that neoliberalism is a lie. Neoliberalism which strated in the 70s with financial capitalism and then deployed fully with Reagan and Thatcher boosted disregulation to make all of this (profit before everything else) possible. Capitalism is a part of neoliberalism, but neoliberalism is more than just capitalism and free market. The fact is that both neoliberalism and capitalism have to be strongly regulated at best.
You might want to reread das Kapital. Capitalism and neoliberalism are the same.
They should, or at least a brief summary of it. I am not going to begrudge someone for not wanting to dive into such a dry dense tome. But Marx as someone who studied sociology has many astute analysis and critique of the inherent social dis-functions and toxicity of capitalism.
But so many of us, in the United States especially have been beaten over the head with mccarthy-ist propaganda since birth. As well as intense indoctrination to treat Leninism as a representation of all socialism. When that almost couldn’t be farther from the truth. Leninism much like fascism is much more tied to totalitarianism* or authoritarianism than it is to any particular socioeconomic model.
Never heard footballitarianism before. Is this what it means?
Nah, that’s just me not double checking ai dictation well enough lol.
I might be incorrect, but wasn’t Leninism supposed to be a temporary stepping stone to communism because the USSR wasn’t industrialized? In already industrialized societies we might be able to start with market socialism or a type of anarcho-communism. With my limited imagination it seems the next test after overcoming authoritarianism might be the abolishment of money. If that could be done, Then we will have achieved early communism.
Didn’t a lot of other places industrialize without communism? You’ll hear a lot of capitalist making similar claims. It doesn’t mean that it’s true. I think that at the time the world in general was industrializing. And the extent to which capitalism or communism aided in that is debatable at best.
Tokens of exchange. However, I don’t see ever going away. We might be able to minimize the importance and role in society. But they aren’t going anywhere
that sure is not surprising
but yeah. I got your point
Ever heard of sarcasm?
Yeah, like anyone would have ever heard of sarcasm.
That’s because 20% of what you read on Reddit is bullshit and 99.9% of what’s on Lemmy is bullshit - this post included.
I hear a lot that gas is cheaper for heating and I took that as the truth for a long time. A while ago I did the math though, and for my house is would have been nearly the same annual power bill if I replaced my 90% gas furnace and water heater with electric units. Although the price of gas is far more economical for heating, there’s a monthly gas usage fee that’s a flat rate. If you go all electric, you don’t pay that, and over the course of a year, I didn’t heat enough for the lower gas price to offset the flat fees. If instead of a regular electric furnace and water heater, they were heat pumps, electric would have been much cheaper than gas.
This certainly would depend on your local prices and weather and how well your house is insulated, but if you need a new furnace, I’d do the math over a year to see if gas is still the most financially attractive option, especially if you can install an air or ground source heat pump.
Heat pumps are so stupidly efficient that my coworker didn’t believe it, even when I showed him how it worked, lol. They are the SSDs of heating and cooling, particularly ground source ones. I had an apartment with one and loved the $60 summer power bills. God, it was fantastic. $60 for the AC, hot water, gaming PC, washer/dryer/dishwasher, oven, and lights.
…And no worries of a gas line leaking or carbon monoxide poisoning.
I heard that geo heat pump installation cost is very high. Did you do the math to see how many summers of $60 energy bills it will take to recuperate initial investment?
Geo heat pump install is indeed very high. But air source heat pumps (both heat pump water heaters and heat pumps for heating/cooling) don’t have that issue and have similar performance, except in extreme climates where geo outperforms.
They perform similarly in terms of heating a cooling ability, but ground source heat pumps are much more efficient. It’s still a tough sell though since the installation costs are huge.
Modern air source pumps work down to -17 degrees Farenheit even without resistive heaters. It’s something to consider, but it’s not a concern for most people.
Even in extreme climates, air source can have resistive heaters built in for emergency heat. Doesn’t save you nearly as much money, but it will keep your house warm when the temperature drops to -38f for a week or so. :)
It worked quite well when I was living in Montana.
Oh, it would take quite awhile to recoup, and air source is much cheaper to install than ground source. Pays itself back over the decades. Right now (and for the next 10 years or so), the federal gov will give you a kickback if you swap your furnace for a qualifying heatpump, up to 11k USD. The installation might be $30k, but a qualifying heatpump covered under that program will save you a serious chunk of change. And as long as you do maintenance on them, they should last for a very long time.
My apartment had them built in as it was all new construction. I miss that place!
One thing to deeming before you out one in: whether you have good insulation and good windows first. Those will go a long way in saving you $$$ on your energy bills regardless of what you are using to heat and cool your home.
I believe the cost of an electric heater was a lot higher even after using available rebates. Hopefully the prices go down or rebates increase and it becomes a more viable option
Gas stoves are easier and more comfortable to cook, but if this study is true im definitely going electrict next.
try induction stoves. they require certain pans (magnetic so test with a fridge magnet if it sticks you good) but its got INSANE temperature control on the high quality units. like, if something starts boiling and you don’t want that you adjust down and it almost instantly stops boiling. the only thing to watch for is getting a unit with variable power not duty cycles. this is a great counter top unit for trying it out tho!
Just got an induction cooktop and almost cried turning it from high to low and watching it stop bubbling almost instantly
Have you tried to cook in a electric stove? I personally hate them. I just turn the exhaust on.
Electric costs about 3x as much in my experience, and it is extremely dry and uncomfortable. Definitely need a humidifier if you’re using electric
???
What are you smoking? Energy is energy, it doesn’t matter where you get the heat from.
…i think he means heat from an inverter unit (heat pump) vs a hot water radiator.
I believe hydrocarbon fuels produce water (vapor) as a combustion byproduct, so LPG or natural gas could certainly contribute to humidity levels in some cases.
There may also be a separate effect by which the heat strips in an electric furnace dry out the air versus the heat exchanger in a gas furnace, but I don’t know about that.
Dude, you don’t just pump the combustion result through your house. Sure, it produces some water vapor, but hopefully you aren’t breathing in the byproducts produced by it. If your air is dry it’s going to be dry no matter what you use to heat with.
(An air conditioner conditions the air though and removes moisture from it, so that will dry out your air. Not your heater though. I also don’t think a heat pump in heat mode will dry the air, but I’m unsure on this.)
Dude, you don’t just pump the combustion result through your house.
I wrote “LPG or natural gas could certainly contribute to humidity levels in some cases,” and was thinking specifically of non-vented gas heaters, which are very common in my experience, and are in some cases used for whole-house heating where there isn’t a central air circulation system. In this case, the combustion result is literally released into the house.
While this thread is about gas heating, the article is about gas cooking stoves, which in most cases can be vented only at most very poorly (with a range hood), so the risk being dicussed is literally a result of releasing the combustion result into your house.
indeed some houses have gas-fired wall heaters which have shitty ventilation, if any. In which case the air would of course be moist.
It’s also worth noting that moist air feels warmer and is not prone to any evaporative cooling effects. Some people will vent their vented dryers into the house to boost the humidity in order to save on heating costs.
https://youtu.be/fmd0pMKxjhA?si=dRObkdpvaU8wRzpE
Please explain by what physical mechanism electric heat can remove water from the air.
Technology connections informed me of this long ago! And it makes perfect sense. But almost every house I go in has a gas stove because apparently people think it’s better or nicer or “more professional” or whatever.
I find this crazy. I live in SE USA and I’ve never even seen a gas stove outside of camping. When everyone was “freaking out” online about the gas stove ban, I was just confused.
Haha! I go in about three houses per day for work and the majority will have gas. Also SE US. Although I’ve never had one in the places I’ve lived so if not for work I’d never have seen them either.
There’s a certain wealth line where they all have gas stoves. Look up the Wolf 6-burner gas range. Not something you find in a 3-2 home.
See those and thermador all the time haha such a waste
I grew up in a rural area, hence the no gas. I now live in a metro area and maybe it’s just my friends, but I’ve really never seen one. They always sounded dangerous to me.
Outside of this (and the utility fucking up, sending too much pressure, and blowing up a bunch of houses) they’re perfectly safe. Millions of homes around the world have gas service and incidents are very rare.
But given the health implications of just normal operation, I’m still not going to get a gas stove in the future.
I’m just here to let you know that in some rural areas, bottled gas is/was the viable solution.
Are there any restaurants that use electric stoves?
I’ve never been in a restaurant kitchen. Can’t tell you.
It’s just nicer to cook on gas. Electric is a pain in the ass and generally less efficient time-wise. Induction apparently solves a lot of issues, though.
Shit, what one do you have? My family has some stupidly expensive one, and the goddamn electric pilot lights get dirty and fail to click off for about 30-50 seconds.
This is also their second gas stove in about 12 years. I only wanted electric because theirs was such a removed to deal with all the time. :P
Induction solves all of the issues.
Even old school electric burners typically heat water to boiling faster than gas.
Gas is more responsive, but induction comes close. Some of the new induction burners have fake flames to indicate how high the output is visually.
Well it is “better”, but it isn’t (as this article highlights) better.
Even against an induction stovetop though, it’s only better in some niche situations, otherwise I’d say the induction stovetop is better, especially because it can’t set stuff on fire.
For me it was Climate Town.
It’s been time to switch to induction stoves for a long time now, they are basically better in every way that matters.
How are they with temperature regulation? I think that’s a big holdback for a lot of people. A gas burner gives consistent heat output at the set level, while an electric burner cycles on and off, resulting in a wider temperature range.
ETA: Wow, WTF? Downvoted for asking a legit question. Are we Reddit now?
They’re probably more consistent than gas. Provided your cookware isn’t moved on the surface, they provide a constant energy output that is a simple linear equation of energy in - losses = energy out. Period. Induction elements “cycle” on and off – hundreds or thousands of times per second. They don’t work like a radiant electric stovetop at all. There is no human perceptible duty cycle.
Fancier models like Bosch and some of the new GE Profile/Cafe ones can even wirelessly communicate with special cookware that has a temperature sensor built in, and deliver you absolute parametrically controlled temperature output at a specific temperature down to the degree, with computer controlled precision. It doesn’t get any better than that.
Induction elements “cycle” on and off – hundreds or thousands of times per second […] There is no human perceptible duty cycle
See unfortunately what you’re describing here are good induction stoves, which is not the majority of what is on the market.
I’ve seen far too many of the bad kind, with duty cycles measured in the tens of seconds. Your 7/10 on the dial could be - like a non-inverter microwave - something in the neighbourhood of 7 seconds on / 3 seconds off. At that point they can actually be worse to use than old halogen glass cooktops, which at least remain hot during the off part of their thermostat’s cycle.
This is not even just cheap no-name crap either, have witnessed it with big-name-brand in-bench stovetops with four-figure pricetags.
If you’re doing something like poaching eggs (which typically calls for a wide, flat pan), you’ll actually see the water starting and stopping boiling in a cycle as it switches. Absolutely terrible.
I have a le cheapo Frigidaire, and mine definitely doesn’t do that. I also have a Summit tabletop single burner induction hot plate kicking around, which I think cost me all of $130 and came with three pans in the box. It doesn’t do that, either.
If you’ve got a recent model that does have a long on-off duty cycle like that, you should name and shame so people know to avoid it. People buying that kind of thing and being turned off by it is just going to slow down the course of progress, here.
Induction has instant temperature control, combined with the possibility of having lower temperatures than gas allows for.
Additionally, there’s no temperature leakage into the room, nor any particles from combustion.
They are perfect at temperature regulation. I have a little 120v unit that even has a hold @ temperature function. Goes as low as 180 and I think as high as 500°
Remember induction heats the pan directly via induction and thus requires cookware that a magnet can stick to. Otherwise faster, more efficient, easy to control
They also boil water faster than consumer stoves. My pans are no longer sticky with the un-ignited gas residue. Baking is so much more even as well. I cook the same amount and my power/gas bill is lower than before. Lots of benefits.
Baking in electric is better than gas because one of the combustion products is water, which reduces the drying effect of baking.
It depends on what you’re baking. You wouldn’t want your cake to have a crispy hard crust on the outside, but you would want that with bread and pizza.
Are we Reddit now?
Always have been.
And as others may have said, induction stoves hold perfect temperature, but also require you to use more substantial steel pots and pans to begin with. As such, they won’t suffer from poor temperature modulation like older resistive electric stoves with cheap aluminum pans would.
Just got rid of my gas stove and got induction. I will never cook with gas again. They have way faster heating and temperature control. Any one who says different hasn’t used induction.
A lot of other comments in this chain are getting a single downvote so far.
It’s ok Big Gas/Oil, we know it’s you.
All electric are fine. There is no discernible difference by the time it gets to the food. Like I had to be academically informed that this on/off even happened, I had no idea. This is such a ridiculous fake concern that’s been created.
I’m sorry, it is unbelievable to me that anyone who has done a good amount of cooking on both gas and old-style electric stoves would say they are equivalent. It simply tells me you do not have adequate experience, or are not observant enough to notice.
I don’t mean this as a personal attack. It’s just…this isn’t an opinion. Gas is dramatically more responsive and precise for heat control. This is objective. If the way you cook does not leverage fine heat control or require quick changes to heat levels, then no you will not notice.
But the difference is stark and noticeable for someone who wants and uses this level of precision.
Out of curiosity, what are you cooking that requires quick changes to heat level?
Completely fair question.
Tons of things require this. Eggs are much easier this way. Anything that needs to be brought to a boil then dropped to a simmer. Anything that needs to not be overcooked but still needs to hit temp. Fish and chicken come to mind. It also just enables fine adjustments while cooking. If I am searing something but realize I crowded the plate and things have started steaming instead, it’s easy and fast to turn the heat up one notch.
Granted some of this comes down to what kind of pan you have too. I cook a lot with a carbon steel pan and it’s very quickly responsive to heat changes. I have a set of all-clad pans and they also respond relatively quickly. But like, my cast irons obviously don’t so it’s a bit moot for them.
Gas is dramatically more responsive and precise for heat control.
Compared to coil definitely, but not if we are talking induction. Induction is as responsive as gas for heat control. Of course noone should be buying electric coil stoves in this day and age.
I’ve heard that from people and I’m eager to eventually have a chance to try one. Our gas stove is under 10 years old and works fine, so a new induction range isn’t really on the horizon for us financially.
But I’m definitely interested to try one.
Gas fanatic freakout exhibit A. Has to change the point being discussed and then yes attack. No point discussing because this will repeat.
Sorry if it sounded like a freak out. That wasn’t intended.
How did I change the point? You said all electric ranges are fine. I contend they are not and tried to support that argument. Happy to hear your interpretation of what I said beyond dismissing it.
And again what I said wasn’t intended as a personal attack on you. But if the argument is that electric and gas are equivalently effective at cooking, that’s a difficult discussion to have because it’s coming from a place of factual inaccuracy.
It might come from those cheap portable models. I tried one my mom had and the cycles were very obvious. It was difficult to do anything where I had to hold a temp, even doing a simple simmer was hard because it would go from boiling to nothing repeatedly. Things constantly burned on it due to poor temp regulation. I know it was a shitty model and I expect full size models to be much better, but it was a concern of mine as well.
I do hope to pick up an induction within a year or two. Can’t really afford it at the moment though.
That mostly has to do with your cookware. I’ve got an older electric unit with really distinct power cycling like you say and it’s only a problem with cheaper aluminum pans. My good laminated steel pans and cast iron are perfectly consistent because they have a lot of thermal mass so they retain the heat and even out the power cycles into a nice average temperature.
Freaking out because some idiot downvoted you. Are we Reddit now?
Consistent heat to that level doesn’t matter outside of VERY specific use cases like tempering a ridiculously small amount of chocolate with very little water in the double boiler setup. Oh, and you have like pure aluminum pans, I guess.
Because also? Gas stoves aren’t as consistent as people think. Yes, we assume they are because we can see the fire. But various impurities in the line, air in the system, etc and you still get minor sputtering and fluctuations.
All of which… almost never matters. Because even when you are doing the most delicate of baking work: You tend to have a double boiler set up so that the water can maintain the heat during these fluctuations.
How are they with temperature regulation? I think that’s a big holdback for a lot of people. A gas burner gives consistent heat output at the set level, while an electric burner cycles on and off, resulting in a wider temperature range.
That is not how induction works. The big holdback for people is ignorance about what induction even is. Temperature regulation is instant same way as it is with gas.
I wonder if the same levels of pollutants are found in restaurants. Most if not all restaurants use gas stoves. The ventilation systems are usually multiple orders of magnitude better than what a typical household would have available.
Having worked in a few restaurants, the vent systems are usually placed above the stoves but the vent itself is kind of high up. It’s definitely capturing the fumes from the cooking process itself, but not clear if it’s also capturing the pollutants from the stove while it’s on.
There definitely has to be some spillage into the kitchen. More than using a laboratory grade ventilation hood but less than the typical gas stove in a typical household.
Every kitchen I have worked in, those vents are so powerful the head chef could smoke while on the line, and the kitchen didn’t smell of smoke. I wouldn’t be surprised if those fans are fully circulating the entire volume of air in the kitchen a couple times a minute.
I think this assumes the restaurant is properly maintaining the ventilation system. I remember a couple of restaurants I worked at the grates were rarely changed out. The one time we did a proper cleaning the fucking things were caked with fat deposits and other crap. Took a power washer and some caustic industrial cleaner to get them to a decent state.
Usually there’s a make up air unit that keeps the pressure in the kitchen positive by pumping more air into the kitchen than what the exhaust fan is exhausting, so yeah the pollutants would have no way of spilling into the kitchen and missing the exhaust, as long as everything is set up properly, including having all fuel burning equipment below the hood.
Kitchens need to be kept under negative not positive pressure, typical make up air units supply 85% of the airflow of the exhaust. Source, I used to design HVAC systems and have done multiple McDonald’s restaurants.
Hmm. 4th year apprentice, and figured it would be the same as the rest of the building’s supply/exhaust balancing. Interesting, thanks
You might be surprised by how little airflow is actually required to displace some hazardous gasses.
deleted by creator
According to the American Lung Association, lung cancer diagnoses have risen a startling 84% among women over the past 42 years while dropping 36% among men over the same period. The overall number of cases remains fairly steady.
[…] Approximately 20% of women diagnosed with lung cancer today are lifelong non-smokers (by contrast, only 1 in 12 men with lung cancer have never smoked).
[…] These shocking statistics beg the question why?
“No one knows,” says John C. Kucharczuk, MD, Director of the Thoracic Oncology Network of the Abramson Cancer Center at Penn Medicine. “It could be hormonal. It could be attributed to high degrees of exposure to secondhand smoke. Some data suggests that among non-smoking females who develop lung cancer, there are chances of a genetic mutation. At this point, there’s no conclusive data.”
From: Penn Medicine
So… is the mystery behind women’s lung cancer solved? Lovely if so (/s).
Tried to see if this data was backed up at the ALA website. Didn’t look like it.
Actually, if looking at it from the 80s it looks like that might be accurate. But this graph tells a different story.
Sounds like a pretty clean answer to it unfortunately
"Make no mistake, radical environmentalists want to stop Americans from using natural gas. The Consumer Product Safety Commission’s proposed ban on gas stoves is the latest egregious scaremongering by the Far Left and their Biden administration allies. I am pleased to partner with Senator Manchin in this bipartisan effort to stop the federal government from issuing regulations that put the interests of the Green New Deal before the well-being of American families,” said Senator Cruz.
We tried voting him out, we really did. Coincidentally, he beat Beto by a very small margin while there was a small percentage of voting machines that reportedly flipped votes for Beto (I think they would flip them to Cruz, and if you didn’t double check all your votes before casting them, then a Beto voter could have inadvertently voted Cruz)
If you take the larger words out of this comment it really reads like Trump wrote it.Supporting article below.
didn’t realize there were so many Ted Cruz fans on lemmy
Is there such a thing?
My comment was in reference to a lack of trust in voting machines, and it reminded me of someone else who thinks they “flip votes” while not providing evidence.
Yeah there was a whole thing about it at the time, it made news and was credible. The fix for it being of course to double check your ballot before you cast, which could easily be a miss by a first time voter or maybe an elderly one.
My comment was in reference to the fact that Ted Cruz is a moron, and that we came really close to getting him out, but I do think there were some shenanigans with voting. Just the other way.
Every accusation is an admission
Here’s an article about it, a quick Google returns a ton of results
Appreciate the response and apologize for casting aspersions. Seems like a legit issue, hope y’all get new hardware soon.
The interesting part in the NPR article is:
As the scientific evidence grew over time about the health effects from gas stoves, the industry used a playbook echoing the one that tobacco companies employed for decades to fend off regulation.
This is the case in each industry from tabacco to at the other end Autism for example. People should do their research and look for the quality of the papers and the COI (conflict of interest).
Most people cannot judge the quality of scientific papers, that’s what public regulators are for, but they failed the people there.
That’s what gets me about the “do your own research” parrots. Ok - let me just google it and blindly trust the top SEOd results. That’s what most people’s research is going to be
It’s good advice if the audience knew how to critically evaluate articles, but people don’t even read the articles.
Google Scholar is a thing.
I don’t know what the autism industry is. I agree that lots of industries use these tactics, while actively poisoning/exposing their customers to toxins. There is a big problem with the baby formula industry using big tobacco tactics to obfuscate facts about premature infants being killed by their products. Johnson and Johnson has also done this with talcum powder.
The thing with talcum powder was that it contained a certain portion of asbestos from the talc deposits it was mined from, which was determined to not be financially viable to separate out. So Johnson and Johnson just didn’t. Some of their baby powder was found to contain asbestos and they recalled a bunch of it. Then J&J claimed at the time they stopped selling talc based baby powder that this was due to “misinformation” surrounding its product.
Yeah, okay, sure.
The stuff you buy as baby powder now is corn starch based. This was news to me because I used to use the stuff to help mount inner tubes in motorcycle tires. The corn starch based stuff doesn’t work for that. Like, at all. I use soap or Windex now instead. No idea how well it works as actual baby powder.
J&J hid the fact that there was asbestos in their talc products and even continued to advertise it for use by women in their ‘sensitive areas.’
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/
"In 1976, as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) was weighing limits on asbestos in cosmetic talc products, J&J assured the regulator that no asbestos was “detected in any sample” of talc produced between December 1972 and October 1973. It didn’t tell the agency that at least three tests by three different labs from 1972 to 1975 had found asbestos in its talc – in one case at levels reported as “rather high.” "
…autism is an industry??
You have an entire bad industry around autism. It’s worse than people think with human rights abuses. The industry produces papers with huge methodology and data issues and COI. Autism Speak is the first relay for this missinformation.
This is the case in each industry from tabacco to at the other end Autism for example.
Ah, yes. The autism industry strikes again!
What do you mean about Autism? The vaccine study?
There is a lot of money dumped by organizations like Autism Speaks into research geared toward “curing” Autism, and running ad campaigns about how Autism is lurking in every corner waiting to destroy your family, whereas other studies demonstrate that neurodivergent folks just need to be treated like human beings to gain access to a meaningful life. This is what I assumed they were talking about when I read their comment.
For those at the back, Autism Speaks is a eugenics organization who wants nothing less than a complete genocide of autistic people. The only reason you know it is anything else is because liberalism takes every chance they can to passively side with and whitewash fascists.
Is this natural gas or LPG
Natural gas. Although it wouldn’t surprise me if both have the same issues.
Yeah, pretty much whatever you burn it’s going to produce some compounds that aren’t good, unless maybe you’re running off of hydrogen or something which no one is. Pretty much always it’s some kind of carbon containing compound.
Even then, you’re going to get NOx. The atmosphere is 70% nitrogen and with high enough temperatures, some will always react with the available oxygen.
I’d expect LPG to have it worse
can raise levels of cancer-causing benzene above what’s been observed from secondhand smoke.
Yeah this is fairly concerning, I usually think of benzene as super carcinogenic. They actually limit how much of it can be used in gasoline for that reason.
I’d probably want to compare benzene content from various sources and consult the OSHA guidelines before saying how bad this is, but there’s no doubt in my mind that this decidedly bad. You’re getting directly and consistently exposed to the benzene.
I’d be curious about some of the other variables around that too. For example, how long are they running the stove on high vs how many cigarettes are they burning.
Yeah there’s a ton to account for. I’m particularly interested in how it compares against car exhaust
I even wonder what the benzene levels are in ambient air in a city like Bay City Texas or Texas City Texas.
Baytown Texas has a bunch of oil and gas industry. I’m a bit afraid to know.
Uh, why those cities? Wouldn’t the metro areas like LA, Houston, New York, etc. be better?
They are refinery towns and you can smell things in the air.
Is this natural gas, or propane, or both? The article mostly uses just “gas” but does mention natural gas once.
Everything I researched was entirely focused on gas stoves being unhealthy, which seems to be the major issue.
Propane doesn’t seem to show up in a general search on this topic, and the carbon monoxide levels from mine didnt seem to go up while in use. So I believe it’s not as bad or even has the same problems.
That being said… I think we can also generalize that burning solid fuel in the open inside your house is probably a bad idea.
I also hate open flame stoves for cooking they suck and I’ll fight you on that. I’m extremely interested in getting this propane stove replaced with induction.
Benzene is the major issue. You have the same issue at the gas pump.
Thanks for linking that!
Those are the same things.
They’re not the same.
Natural gas is composed of a few different things like butane methane even propane and a few others.
Propane is just propane.
For environmental purposes, propane is cleaner than natural gas.
I don’t think the article distinguished the two.
Yes yes and gasoline isn’t literally petroleum, good job.
wtf are you on about
Knowing things, like propane being a product of natural gas (and petroleum) refinement, just like gasoline is a product of petroleum refinement, you ignorant yet pedantic dorks.
ah, we are all refined big bang on this blessed day.
Natural gas and propane are not the same thing.
Natural gas is methane, not propane.
Laughs hysterically in South African… where we now have no choice but to use gas for almost everything because our electrical grid is collapsing due to IMF-approved neoliberal shitfuckery.
Don’t people blame it on
ANSANC short sightedness about banning new powerplants by Escom and failing to expand the grid and ANC’s corruption?*ANC
ANC short sightedness
What ANC short-sightedness? They’re doing what all the rich people wanted them to do, aren’t they? Running everything “like a business?” I guess South Africans are now seeing for themselves how short-sighted running “everything like a business” was always going to be, huh?
In your opinion where did it go wrong? How should it have been prevented? What should the government/country do to get out the current crisis?
In your opinion where did it go wrong?
1985… when the National Party decided to commercialise and deregulate everything in the hopes of causing socio-economic chaos in the country - which it did. They, for instance, knew perfectly wll deregulating the taxi industry would cause chaos - they literally commissioned White Papers to research the outcomes - and they did it not in spite of the findings of that research, but because of it.
Same thing with Eskom - commercialised in 1985, and by 2002 Eskom was disconnecting more households than they were connecting - I literally have the UKZN research papers on my desktop to prove it - because Eskom was now being “run like a business.” The outcome we see today shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone, but because the media has been lying to us about the root cause of our problems we are all making surprise Pikachu faces while whining about “corruption” and “incompetence.”
The ANC took one look at this state of affairs and went, “Oh, we’re fine with this” and they’ve been doing the bog-standard “living it up while the rich gets richer and the poor get poorer” neoliberal shuffle ever since. Don’t get me wrong… the ANC is as corrupt as fuck - but that doesn’t make them unique here in South Africa or the rest of the world. But they are not the root cause… it’s the socio-economic system that enables this shitfuckery that is.
What should the government/country do to get out the current crisis?
We already know how… the same people that now applaud the DA or ActionSA every time their talking heads use the word “privatisation” are the very people who remember (or rather, selectively forgets) how well our public infrastructure worked when they were actually run as public infrastructure and not profit-making “businesses.” That’s what the country needs to do - reclaim our public infrastructure. But don’t expect the snivelling racketeers (whether they be ANC, DA, EFF or any of the parasites squatting in parliament) in our political establishment to push that idea any time soon…
I am very happy with my induction range. I switched from gas just before this info about gas ranges became a thing.
Much less use of handle covers with my cast iron frying pans because it directly heats instead of throwing heat everywhere. Boils water faster than my microwave. And health bonuses too.
Gas stoves rock. Rather than banning gas stoves, just require that they be installed safely.
The answer here is simple- mandate a range hood with real outside exhaust (not the cheap ones that blow air back into the room). And require a make-up air vent with equivalent capacity.
Maybe require the stove to automatically engage the vent at low speed (near-silent) so when you start a burner the vent runs at like 10CFM or something automatically.
Yep. I’d rather not have a propane stove, but I live in an area with a lot of power outages. We have a propane generator for backup power. Makes no sense to size to generator to run and induction stove when we can just use our, properly installed, propane stove.
Mandating that someone renovate their entire kitchen to have a gas stove would have worse repercussions than just outright banning them
But it can be the required standard going forward
I vividly remember when they required fire-removedant insulation that every contractor and worker in the biz was up in arms, I can’t imagine how well it’s gonna go for contractors building high-rise apartments that are also required to have strong ventilation systems for dumb stoves
Do high-rise apartments tend to have gas stoves? I’ve never even seen a low-rise apartment without an electric range.
I don’t mean for existing ones. I mean for installing new ones.
