Full IDF Spokesperson statement:
Attached is the briefing: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC1810202362
Attached is a recording of a conversation between Hamas operatives regarding the Islamic Jihad failed rocket launch on the hospital on October 17, 2023: https://bit.ly/3S4xqiG
Attached is a visual analysis following the IAF’s examination on the subject: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC1810156854
Attached is an infographic of all the failed rocket launches in the Gaza Strip since the beginning of the war: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/1810202309876543672
Attached is a photograph from the IDF launch identification system on the subject: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC18102023984
Looks like evidence has been published, and at least partially verified by OSINT groups (in the linked article)
Alright, gonna be a skeptic.
We’re seeing an Israeli news source followed by an IDF statement with IDF evidence, so a conflict of interest does exist with these sources, though that doesn’t mean either is lying. That being said, if Israel did deliberately target a hospital in Gaza with as many eyes on Gaza as there are, that’d be a really fucking stupid move. At the same time, If they did, lying and completely fabricating everything is in their highest interest. At minimum, though, I think that any trustworthiness one would associate with journalists or military Intel be thrown out, and the evidence be viewed with skepticism
There is also some oppositely damning evidence in circulation. GeoConfirmed apparently did their own locating of where the video occurred, and - if accurate - from the videos perspective, the missile was moving northwest, from the direction of Israel. They are also A third party in this, though, so their bias is not immediately determinable from this one tweet, nor can the factuality be easily confirmed.
We’re still in the fog of war, and simultaneously a war for our minds and support is being waged. I am going to wait for more information from more parties to arrive.
EDIT: I previously stated the tweet I linked claimed the missile was moving north east, which it doesn’t - that’s my misphrasing. The tweet I linked specifically repeats the falling shrapnel story - though the evidence they show shows the camera looking southeast, with the missile coming from said direction towards the camera. I’ve rewritten it to be more clear.
If it were Israel, they would just say Hamas was using the hospital as a military facility like they have in the past.
Their minister did say that before he deleted the tweet. I guess they realise what they had done and decided to say “wasn’t us”
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Something that occurs to me that I can’t really get out of my head is perhaps Israel using it’s iron dome system to intercept missiles so that the shrapnel lands inside Gaza. I don’t know much about the iron dome system, nor what the alternatives to making missile shrapnel fall on civilians are.
If anyone with more knowledge about these things could weigh in, I’d appreciate it.
No shot a Hamas rocket has that kind of firepower, especially after detonation.
If you watch the comparison video, it sounds very much like a US JDAM rig (which is like a strap-on guidance system for normally-dumb ordinance; so instead of just falling from a plane and hoping for the best, it can aim and steer to a target.
Do you know who has US military tech? Hmmm
If it was a misfire, it could still have been full of fuel, could that have had an effect?
(Not seen videos)
Yeah, I pulled open those clips from @zerfuffle and had an “oh damn” moment. It sounds identical.
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Alright, let’s get an independent to verify, but it’s looking pretty damning for Hamas at this point.
Yeah, they didn’t shoot that, it was the Palestinian Islamic Jihad according to the evidence delievered by Israel. Not the same groups, although they coordinate sometimes. But Hamas went right out of the gate blaming Israel despite apparently knowing better, and that’s just not a good look at all if true.
Blatantly lying all over the Internet and media is actually a semi-good look these days, unfortunately.
Oh damn, lying online might tarnish Hamas’s reputation?
Hey guys, specifically targeting, torturing, and murdering hundreds of civilians was fine - but we should really draw the line at lying online. That’s just barbarous.
Does it? Israel is the last person to trust. I wouldn’t even trust them if they admitted it
Lol. But you would trust these Hamas psychos?
I mean an Israeli minister actually went out and said “we hit a Hamas base”. That’s also pretty damning.
Edit: To correct myself, I have no idea why I thought he was a minister. He’s part of Netenyahu’s “digital team”, whatever that is.
Very compelling evidence, especially if it gets verified. They even adressed the question mark of it being more damage than these groups usually do when their missiles hit. It would be very high stakes lying, but then again, this is a high stakes situation. Whoever did that has a lot of innocent blood on their hands.
Lots of Islamic Jihad & Hamas missiles fail during flight and kill Palestinians. Israel had published videos in the past showing e.g. 8 launches at night, pausing the video and showing how 2 or 3 suddenly turn down to the ground to hit the Gaza strip. And of course the local terrorist groups accounted dead Palestinians to Israel striking those locations. It’s sometimes easy to show, with visible rocket engines at night and sometimes harder.
News outlets don’t give a shit nor does the public. They all jumped at the initial news, regurgitated it verbatim and now that cool heads are analyzing everything it doesn’t matter anymore. PR was done.
It happens all the time. Hamas and Islamic Jihad don’t care for civilians or conventions and never did, all they care about is literally “killing Jews”. Next question people should be asking: “why are they launching rockets from a hospital’s parking lot? Isn’t that a warcrime?” And the answer is yes and always has been.
Does anyone have sources on what kind of missiles Palestinian groups typically have access to? I think that would be very useful in evaluating the claims being made.
They build their own.
I would count that as having access to them. But that by itself doesn’t answer the question of what exactly they’re able to build and if it’s big enough to do as much damage as we saw. Based on someone else’s link it looks like they do have missiles big enough to do catastrophic damage to a large building, especially if they crash right after takeoff and are full of propellant. That was a surprise to me. It’s not proof of anything but it does make Israel’s story seem more plausible.
Oh yeah, I’m not out here to weigh in at all about what happened.
Just weighing in with the answer to the very reasonable question of “where do the rockets come from?”
Holy shit, those are much bigger than anything I had imagined them having.
Those are all rockets that claim to have been used. Notably most were caught trying to enter Gaza because they’re goddamn huge. 99% of everything fired from Gaza is going to be homemade, small and slow as fuck which is why iron dome even though it’s not particularly sophisticated compared to ciws of major nations.
Well, there’s this: https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235
So, what I gather from this thread and others:
Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas and not getting missiles from Iran, cobbles together their own home-made rocket made out of duck tape and twine and fires it at Israel. The rocket, unsurprisingly, falls apart and part of it falls on the parking lot of Gaza city hospital, killing about a dozen or so people. Hamas rushes to the scene and asks how many are dead. Gaza hospital says 500 - 12 from the missile and 488 from the … you know siege and food/medicine blockade.
Hamas knows that the IDF has targeted this hospital before and had no doubt that they would it again, and since the missile didn’t come from them, releases a press release saying the IDF bombed a hospital and 500 are dead. This makes President Abbas call off his meeting with Biden and throws a wrench in the peace process, just what Hamas wants.
The IDF initially just say “Hamas did it,” and if you disagree we’ve got this new law that jails reporters for saying bad stuff about Israel. Then they release a video footage of a different rocket barrage that has nothing to do with anything. Biden comes over and goes: “Come on, this isn’t the cold war, it’s the information age. We’ve got like 10 live web cams throughout Gaza city streaming, OSINT probably got it. If you didn’t do it, there ain’t any reason to lie about it.”
Of course, that is just what I got from Lemmy, so probably a mix of propaganda from both sides. Feel free to yell all the corrections in the world in the replies.
Speaking of livestream, this seems to be a video from that night, from a geolocated position :
https://twitter.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106
We see a rocket being launched, seemingly missfire and blowing up high in the sky, then two explosions, the second one being near the hospital.
To someone who can’t be bothered doing any independent research, this sounds the most likely.
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Do you think linking to an electronic intifada article makes you seem more or less biased?
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Read the article. Separate sources have come up with videos from another angle, backing Israel’s claim.
Oh, is that the one with the wrong timestamp? Or is that the one where all the lights are still on in Gaza? Sorry I’m getting all my IDF propaganda confused
The sound of the munition used in the strike and the size of the explosion is in line with JDAMs used in prior conflicts, not that of a misfired missile: https://x.com/wyattreed13/status/1714338974544625692?s=20
Feel free to compare with the use of other JDAMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_uwzugvv-g
No Palestinian authority has demonstrated the capability of launching a munition of this degree of capability, and there has been no indication of secondary detonation that would suggest that a munitions depot or oxygen tank is to blame. Evidence of this is that the sum total of all prior Palestinian rocket launches (including misfires) hasn’t come even close to this level of casualties.
I wonder where all the people from yesterday are now…for them it was damn sure Israel and if you made the mistake to publish this second opinion or made the suggestion to wait for other sources your were downvoted into oblivion…
But also with this new source I would wait until it is verified independently. I really like this approach from our german news station Tagesschau, where all news get a label until they are verified by different, independent sources. Makes fake news a lot less common.
It would not be the first time Israel has targeted health treatment facilities
https://theintercept.com/2021/05/21/gaza-bombing-hospital-israel/
I think most people were rightly suspicious because it has happened before.
just to be very clear here: Even if this cruel and should be absolutely prevented, when the space around or the medical facility itself is used by the enemy forces to launch attacks or store ammunition or other equipment, it makes it a valid, military target. Attacking a hospital is not automatically a war crime as it is declared by many here…
I wonder where all the people from yesterday are now…
this article is 25 minutes old at time of writing, how is anyone supposed to talk about any of this stuff when you start comments like this.
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German news already posted about this yesterday and I added it to the thread from yesterday which is now deleted…
German news already posted about this yesterday and I added it to the thread from yesterday which is now deleted…
damn those people for not reading your comment on a thread from yesterday that is now deleted, what are they even doing? they need to answer for themselves.
Not engaging with deleted comments is a literal war crime!
Not saying that there are vile people that are just rooting for their football team no matter what happens, but I did fine here offering the opinion that both statements were - at the time - equally not backed by evidence. I did mention, that the Guardian did mention that the size of explosion is more than usual for the weapons of the militants, but even that didn’t necessearily mean that it was Israel.
If we’re looking at this we should look at all neews criticial, especially if one supports a side over the other. It’s too easy to fall for hopeful rumours and fantasies anyways. Seen too many people who just go on any unbacked claim by either side “aha! I knew it”. It’s a volatile and chaotic situation and a lot of bad actors just try to score points.
Thousands of missiles were fired from Gaza last week, and apparently none of them turned around and struck Gaza. On the other hand Israel has been conducting a bombing campaign this week that has blown up a whole lot of buildings, including (according to the NYT) 4 other hospitals… It is obviously possible that this was an errant missile from Gaza, it is much more likely that this was a bomb from Israel.
Did you see the report? Quite a lot of rockets fired from Gaza fails and hit somewhere in Gaza.
That would be a remarkable fail rate if that is the case
and apparently none of them turned around and struck Gaza.
5-20% depending on the type of missile/rocket generally land inside the Strip. They don’t use aerospace grade materials, so imperfections that wouldn’t cause a problem in 100 years of use as an irrigation pipe end up failing on the multiple G forces associated with rocketry.
Bro just watch the video of Hamas rocket impacts and compare it against the hospital impact, there is no fucking way that’s a homemade sewer pipe rocket.
Lol sure
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