EDIT: no, I don’t sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)

  • Veraticus
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    2848 months ago

    Most defederation isn’t because people are disagreeing though. It’s because the people they’re defederating from are assholes.

    • @ATQ@lemm.ee
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      2188 months ago

      OP is a three day old account. They know this, this meme is just them crying about it.

    • Scrubbles
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      8 months ago

      Instance know for trolling and being assholes is eventually defederated

      You just don’t understand us!

      • Veraticus
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        1028 months ago

        Lol right? And if you even try to engage it’s constant sealioning, memeing, and dunking.

        • @mustardman@discuss.tchncs.de
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          8 months ago

          Sealioning? No, you just won’t read my 10,000 word post that is copied from someone else’s pHD.

          Edit: No joke, after posting this I got this message from a Hexbear user:

          I’ve read all three volumes of [Das Kapital] around a month ago because I had an autistic urge to do it

          tell me with full seriousness that you’ve even glanced at it

          • Veraticus
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            198 months ago

            Have you even read Gramsci? You really can’t disagree with anything I say until you’ve read Gramsci. Sorry, I don’t make the rules!

            This is why my instance is defederated with them though. It’s just bad faith nonsense all the way down.

            • @vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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              -28 months ago

              I mean, it’s not a huge problem to read Marx or Gramsci before arguing about Marx or Gramsci. You don’t have to read all they wrote, of course. To form an opinion on Gadamer I don’t have to read everything he wrote.

              • Veraticus
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                78 months ago

                That’s different than what I said though, which is that you can’t disagree with me without reading Gramsci. And is also typically how these authors’ names are invoked in arguments which are not about the authors themselves.

                • @vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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                  -38 months ago

                  While discussing Gramsci - then they’d be obviously correct that you should be familiar with the subject to disagree or agree or anyhing.

          • ANGRY_MAPLE
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            8 months ago

            It’s not even a good come back. It’s like saying that they’re right because they have the power of Shrek on their side

            • @mustardman@discuss.tchncs.de
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              128 months ago

              They are used to their echo chambers and high-fiving themselves. To be fair, I wouldn’t want to mess with them if Shrek was on their side.

              • ArxCyberwolf
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                48 months ago

                Shrek seems pretty anti-authoritarian, so he’s automatically a lib and an enemy as far as they’re concerned.

      • @acastcandream@beehaw.org
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        8 months ago

        To build on this point: I don’t get the whole “anti-echo chamber” thing and this demand we entertain said assholes. We select people to be friends we generally like and agree with. We often don’t associate with people we don’t like or disagree with. Why should our forums be some totally egalitarian social exposure? That’s literally never been the case ever. We read what we want to read. We talk to who we want to talk to. I’m not going to be guilted into listening to some jerk who thinks gay people shouldn’t marry and belong in hell. I don’t want to share a beer with them, I would never invite them to dinner in my home, so why should I have to deal with them living rent free in my mind because I saw some ignorant post of theirs and they called someone a slur? Hell, why should I be forced by some arbitrary, inconsistent moral code to deal with people who are simply disruptive/obnoxious?

        I have plenty of work colleagues and family I disagree with, I read sources I don’t always love. I get plenty of exposure to other ways of thinking and ideas, at least no less than anyone else does. Do I think people can go too far and literally only surround themselves with “yes men” socially? Sure. But come on. How many of us actually spend equal time with people we both agree and disagree ideologically with?

        The only people whining about defederating either don’t understand what it is or are butthurt because people are collectively showing them the door, and there is little they can do about it. 

        • Veraticus
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          228 months ago

          Yeah it’s just bad faith. They just want access to every space so accuse those that shut their doors on them of being an echo chamber.

        • @DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de
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          38 months ago

          Yeah you’re right. It’s not a binary choice between echo chamber and non-echo chamber. It’s just an open community where trolling antisocial behaviour is discouraged. If admins of an instance are encouraging antisocial behaviour then the only solution is to defederate.

        • Erika2rsis
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          138 months ago

          You might wish to be aware that your instance’s top-level domain was chosen because ML stands for “Marxism-Leninism”, and that the main admin of lemmy.ml has a photo of Mao as his profile banner. So you’re probably going to have a hard time convincing your instance’s admins to defederate from Hexbear and Lemmygrad, all things considered.

          • @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            268 months ago

            Hexbear is known for trolling, regardless of their political stance, unless there is a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow.

            • Erika2rsis
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              238 months ago

              I’m just saying that if one wishes to be defederated from Hexbear, then one should migrate off of lemmy.ml first. The admins of that instance are not going to be open to defederating Hexbear.

              • @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                78 months ago

                thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered

              • @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                58 months ago

                thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered

            • Erika2rsis
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              28 months ago

              Also, regarding “a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow” — basically ever since I first started seeing this sort of stuff coming from Hexbear in the brief time when they federated with Blåhaj Lemmy, I thought of stuff like pig poop balls in kind of the same way as, like, the climate/vegan activists who throw soup cans at paintings or pour milk jugs in stores or trespass F1 races or break fuel pumps or so forth. A lot of people express a lot of anger and frustration and annoyance at these sorts of things and say “How can these activists be so stupid‽ Don’t they know that this hurts support for their cause‽”, but… ehhhh, being goddamn annoying as all Hell is honestly a more effective form of political action than a lot of people consciously believe it to be. The video essayist Ponderful once said about this,

              People criticize actions like milk pours and soup…chucks? Because it “gives the right something to criticize”…but it seems like that’s the point! And at the same time, it makes other climate activists look extremely reasonable and “good, actually” in comparison! If pouring some milk on the ground will mean that Daily Mail readers might hear some messages about how messed-up the dairy industry is, and then also maybe even consider old enemies like our Greta as good in comparison, then…yay! Yay, I say! And if it makes the public look kinder upon activists who actually target oil infrastructure, in comparison to what they see as random and annoying publicity stunts, then f*ck!gn ay!

              Whether all of this applies in the case of Hexbear is something that people can argue about — it feels like kind of a silly comparison given that Lemmy is just an obscure social media platform, which doesn’t exactly seem like the type of place where meaningful praxis can happen… But it’s at least a thought that we can keep in mind. Hexbear has certainly succeeded in getting people on Lemmy talking and thinking about them and their beliefs, pushing the Overton window leftwards — especially if other, less annoying leftists look “good in comparison”. I’m kind of reminded of my own path towards leftism, honestly: I’d certainly been annoyed by communist interlocutors plenty of times over the years, but I think that without that annoyance, I probably wouldn’t agree with those selfsame interlocutors on so much today. That was just one of the many tactics that collectively led me down that path.

              I don’t think that this is necessarily Hexbear’s intentional strategy in the same way as those aforementioned climate/vegan activists, but nevertheless, this is at least my spitball of a material analysis of why Pig Poop Balls actually does advance the cause. This is just a little advocacy for the devil, as it were.

              • @captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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                108 months ago

                I agree with a lot of this, but this is Lemmy. You can just be a communist here. I’m one. A lot of us are. They aren’t pushing the window left at all.

                • Erika2rsis
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                  58 months ago

                  Yyyyyyou have a point.

                  But at the same time, there are also a lot more people on Lemmy now who came from Reddit and aren’t communists, right? So maybe it isn’t pushing leftwards so much as it’s trying to prevent a push rightwards. Does that sound more correct?

                • @mustardman@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  58 months ago

                  You can just be a communist here. I’m one.

                  I’m not a communist but I think it’s a welcome concept in discussing economic theory as I’m sure there are things that we can learn from.

                  I’m glad people like you exist who are not tankies. I wish that your group would be the actual face of your movement on Lemmy instead of those obnoxious Hexbear users.

              • @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                38 months ago

                i could certainly see that argument having same weight, but the practical application of it isn’t as a protest, but as a thought ending cliche. PPB is linked when the interlocuter has decided the thread is over, independent of whether they actually had much participation.

                I agree, there is certainly a place for confrontational protest, hell, if your protest doesn’t make people upset, then its not working. But as you say, this is lemmy. Its not a good context, in my estimation, for a soup pour, particularly when that soup pour is in defence some pretty controversial stuff. Many will say this is milquetoast waffling, which is probably fair, I guess, but I am here to relax and I don’t find threat of disgust for mistepping someone’s Bizmarkian statist realpolitik to be relaxing.

                And, ultimately, I advocate more for a filtering than a complete removal, simply because the discussion is important. There are forums here where conversation is ecouraged, and there ar forums where circle jerk is encouraged, and if the former is done stridently but in good faith, I want it to continue. I personaly don’t need the circle jerk, however.

                i do appreciate your analasys, and it does make me view that stuff a little more charitably. I also appreciate your use of the interobang. This open source phone keyboard can’t do that yet, and I feel its a loss.

          • mycorrhiza they/them
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            128 months ago

            .ml domains are named for the country code of Mali, and are used because they are free to register

              • @CAPSLOCKFTW@feddit.de
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                28 months ago

                I also pay for a ml domain now, 11$ a year. Used a free one, set up my mail server and some other stuff, now I need that domain because of the mail adresses I and others from my family use. Lemmy.ml has lots of users, it’s the main devs instance after all. I don’t think that the marxist-leninist thingy is the reason for that.

                Though I disagree with dessalines political views.

            • Erika2rsis
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              48 months ago

              I hadn’t heard of that, but you’re probably right. It’s still mighty coincidental that 3/4 of the admins have Cuban or Soviet historical figures as their profile pictures.

          • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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            18 months ago

            This does not get more true if you guys repeat it over and over again. This is just nonsense.

        • JokeDeity
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          68 months ago

          I haven’t seen much offensive stuff from Kbin, but the other two are burning dumpsters.

    • The Dark Lord ☑️
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      188 months ago

      Right. If I disagree with someone, I downvote. If people are being an asshole, it’s different.

      Generally the assholes also think it’s because people just disagree.

    • @guts
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      -28 months ago

      Even radical left liberals are assholes.

  • yukichigai
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    1848 months ago

    Yes, let’s enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.

    Fuck off OP.

    • @Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.

      These cretins have a right to post nazi and tankie shit on their own instances – them’s the beauty of the fediverse. But I also have a right to not want hate speech, genocide denial, and Hitler/Stalin/Mao simps polluting my feed. It’s not mere “differing opinions” when one person’s opinion is “Holodomor didn’t happen, and if it did, the Ukrainians deserved it” or “Holocaust didn’t happen, and if it did, the Jews deserved it” or whatever apologia they wanna peddle.

      • yukichigai
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        288 months ago

        It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.

        There’s an actual term for this: Motte and Bailey. One of many hallmarks of disingenuous shitbirds.

      • Gormadt
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        128 months ago

        Preaching facts right here friend

        I bloody hate fascist

      • @ImmortanStalin@lemmygrad.ml
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        -78 months ago

        Another horseshoe theory take… Last I checked the “tankies” saved everyone from the Nazis. Let’s equate genocidal/colonial violence to defend capital, with the efforts to establish socialism. LOL

        • @Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Tankies != communists

          Tankies are the insufferable fascists who take on a red aesthetic. There are plenty of great leftists, commies, and progressives who don’t deny the Uyghur genocide or Holodomor or simp for Russia and the CCP. I’m not a communist myself (nor am I a capitalist for that matter), but I’ve got nothing against non-tankie communists aside from economic disagreements. Tankies I do have issue with, as should anyone who gives a rat’s ass about the working class and basic human rights.

          Also, lol at that Stalin profile pic. Literally fetishizing a genocidal dictator who betrayed the working class and murdered millions of innocents.

        • @wombatula@lemm.ee
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          8 months ago

          Yes the angry internet trolls on Hexbear saved everyone from the Nazis, thank you Hexbear for winning WW2 for the world what would we ever do without them.

          You realize that to someone that isn’t a terminally online political extremist you sound like those dumb Americans that try and claim the moon landing as their own accomplishment right? Your pasty ass has nothing to do with the brave soldiers that fought the Nazis, and I doubt those badasses would think much of some kid screaming into a computer about why liberals are bad.

        • @scbasteve7@lemm.ee
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          68 months ago

          Oppressive nations tend to have powerful armies.

          Nobody is defuting that the USSR fought off the Nazis and had the biggest hand in their destruction.

          But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.

          • @Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.

            Exactly! You can’t just divide the world into “fought against the Nazis” and “didn’t fight against the Nazis” and use that as your entire basis of morality. By that same logic, America is the Good Guys™ and has absolutely zero neo-Nazi problems because they destroyed Imperial Japan and fought against the Nazis, right?

            It’s completely possible to fight against the Nazis and still be evil yourself (cough cough Stalin), or the reverse where the Finns technically cooperated with the Nazis, but only because the USSR was literally doing a colonialism against Finland and the Nazis happened to be the only ones fighting the USSR at the time.

            Morality and history are not black and white, despite these lemmygrad users’ naked attempts to coerce them into being such.

            • @Someonelol
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              08 months ago

              Careful where you speak such truths friend, the Pronoun Patrol would’ve thrown you to the gulags if it was in their instance.

        • Meldroc
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          -38 months ago

          Oh look, tankie horseshit. How many millions died as a result of “efforts to establish socialism”? So why don’t you shove that disingenuous bullshit up your ass.

        • @Someonelol
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          -48 months ago

          Last I checked the “tankies” signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis and only became a reluctant ally because they were betrayed.

      • gullible
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        298 months ago

        Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.

        • @jarfil
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          68 months ago

          He didn’t even want to kill all those people, he only wanted to exploit them and then deport everyone to Africa… but the Allies wouldn’t let him conquer enough Africa for all of them, so what was he to do? Killing then wasn’t even his idea, it was Reinhardt’s! He just signed it…

          (do I put an /s? it’s historically correct…)

    • Enkrod
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      I’ve been successfully reporting troll-accounts and got them banned, I’ve blocked entire communities (mostly some niche-nsfw communities, so they don’t turn up in my local feed on my lemmynsfw.com-account). And I’ve found most community-moderators reeeeeeaaaaally don’t like fascists on their turf and if you see something and report something, most will get the boot.

      This meme presents a false choice, defederation is not the only sane reason to choose (because understanding and/or engaging nazis is decidedly not sane).

      Once an entire instance is gone though… defederate like there’s no tomorrow.

    • @UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
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      28 months ago

      Right… So thinking that the Tzar’s invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that’s what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.

      • yukichigai
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        8 months ago

        My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. “Literal Nazi” isn’t some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.

    • @Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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      -378 months ago

      There is a block button. You don’t have to scream for daddy Admin every time someone says something stupid. I, for one, want to call them out, not keep everyone from my instance from interacting with them.

      • IHeartBadCode
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        328 months ago

        every time someone says something stupid

        Here’s a philosophical topic called emergence. Every “one” thing said by an idiot is one thing, but when pretty much every other comment becomes some asshole saying ignorant things it suddenly is something entirely different.

        I saw the very early Internet (mid-80s) and what happened when you gave people benefit of the doubt. There’s been no demonstration that anyone has changed. So fuck those stupid assholes, the Internet is vast they can go carve out their own thing. That’s the nice thing, they have every tool to make their own LOLverse. But they don’t because they don’t want to suck each other’s dick, they want to be an ass to everyone else. Just as it was the case with talk.*

        Same as it was, same as it ever will be. I for one am glad this time around people are being proactive. It shows that some have actually learned something.

      • yukichigai
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        8 months ago

        Yes, let’s give the Nazis a platform to spew their bullshit. It’s entirely so we can laugh at them and completely could not possibly lead to them continuing to propagate their message of hate. /s

        Fuck off. Fuck off as far as anyone has ever fucked off before, then dream the impossible dream and fuck off even further.

        • @Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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          8 months ago

          I don’t even trust you to properly define what a nazi is. People are calling Hexbar users Nazis, they are calling Lemmygrad users Nazis, and they call the lemmy.ml admins Nazis as well. Just because you say they are nazis doesn’t mean I agree with you.

          • yukichigai
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            218 months ago

            What, is it only Nazism if it’s from the Reichstag region of WWII Germany, and otherwise it’s just Sparkling Fascism?

            Maybe ask yourself why it is that when someone explicitly denounces Nazis you feel personally offended.

            • Norgur
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              -138 months ago

              The Reichstag Region of WWII Germany, eh?

              Like…from the Brandenburger Tor then?
              I get what you are trying to say but to a German this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledyremoved.

              • yukichigai
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                88 months ago

                this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledyremoved

                SelfAwareWolves material right here.

                • Norgur
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                  08 months ago

                  Wait… What? So I’m a Nazi or something who didn’t realize what they are because I told you that “the Reichstag region” is an ignorant thing to say when it comes to Nazis since the building itself is a sign of democracy and still seat of the German parliament? It burning was literally used by the Nazis to reduce democratic powers in Germany. You used the word because you happen to know it and it sounds all harsh and German to you.

          • Norgur
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            -188 months ago

            Besides: De-Federating is a mistake. That’ll lead to them reinforcing their bullshit unchallenged inside of their echo chambers and draw in everyone who comes by and stays long enough. That’s exactly what strengthens the AFD in Germany or certain religious groups in the US. The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.

            De-federating so you don’t see them and then pretending that solves anything is like throwing a blanket on a unexploded bomb that has slammed into your bedroom: You can pretend it’s not there all your want, until one day where the cover is being lifted rather radically.

            • yukichigai
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              298 months ago

              On the contrary, deplatforming works very well. In the wake of Reddit banning FatPeopleHate and CoonTown the Georgia Institute of Technology did a study on walling off and removing “safe spaces” for bigots:

              Working from over 100M Reddit posts and comments, we generate hate speech lexicons to examine variations in hate speech usage via causal inference methods. We find that the ban worked for Reddit.

              More accounts than expected discontinued using the site; those that stayed drastically decreased their hate speech usage—by at least 80%. Though many subreddits saw an influx of r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown “migrants,” those subreddits saw no significant changes in hate speech usage.

              In other words, other subreddits did not inherit the problem.

              Banning an entire bigoted instance from yours, i.e. defederating, will accomplish the goal of reducing and removing bigoted behavior from your instance.

              • Norgur
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                -208 months ago

                Yes, it worked for the platform. It didn’t make the bigots go away. They just withdrew. No one actually changed their mind by being banned. They will just move to ever smaller platforms until they land on a platform where they are the only crowd and there they will keep reinforcing each other, leading to more radicalization.

                That’s exactly what I said: defederating will make the problem invisible to you, but the hateful bigots will still exist.

                • @kmkz_ninja@lemmy.world
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                  158 months ago

                  I’m tired of people thinking that racists and bigots and morons deserve a warm shoulder to vent to. It isn’t anyone’s responsibility to make someone be something they aren’t, and it’s really suspicious anytime someone tells you that you should be nice, or hear out, or let join people that hold disgusting views.

                • @Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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                  8 months ago

                  They will become more radical, but they will be prevented from radicalizing others. When normal people encounter the now hyper-radicalized members of the deplatformed groups, they will tend to write them off as the crazed radicals that they are.

                  Convince those who you can. Exile those who are too far gone. Doing the opposite in either instance is harmful.

                • yukichigai
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                  128 months ago

                  Why is it every instance admin’s responsibility to fix bigots? What is it about running a Lemmy instance that obligates people to actively work to find the one glimmer of redeeming quality in these human septic tanks? Why should the targets of their hatred have to do all the work to avoid being victimized?

                  Well it isn’t, nothing does, and they shouldn’t. Bigots are the ones in the wrong here, and kicking them out works plenty well. Bigots spread by being given platforms. Take away even one of those and it lessens the spread.

                  “We shouldn’t have echo chambers” is just propaganda from bigots who were upset that their soapboxes got taken away. Stop falling for it.

                • Grow the fuck up and accept the fact you’re not wanted. Instance admins are allowed to associate with who they want. You are not owed anyone else’s time and attention simply because you exist.

                  Also, has anybody reported this guy yet?