Basic Income is often promoted as an idea that will solve inequality and make people less dependent on capitalist employment. However, it will instead aggravate inequality and reduce social programs that benefit the majority of people. At its Winnipeg 2016 Biennial Convention, the Canadian Liberal Party passed a resolution in support of “Basic Income.” The
  • Stoned_Ape
    41·
    2 years ago

    The author of that article lives in Germany.

    …whaaaaaat? Seriously. What the fuck? How on earth can he talk like that, while living in a reality that is completely different? Nobody here would accept anything like the UBI he’s talking about. And I’ve not seen anyone talk about UBI like that in Germany.

    He essentially asks: “Do we want UBI, if we get less money than before?”

    Then answer is: Of course not. Why are you asking that? Who would want an UBI that makes it worse for poor people?

    If you are in Germany, and you have an accident and can’t walk anymore, you receive the health care, and on top of that, you get a wheelchair and you get benefits based on the needs for people who can’t walk. This is completely normal in Germany, and nobody even talks about it. It’s expected and normal.

    If you have an accident and can’t use your arms anymore, you get everything you need to live. That includes a person who cleans your appartment. That includes a person who helps you building new muscles and capabilities to achieve some kind of autonomy.

    Whenever you can’t do something on your own, you get help. This is completely normal and expected in Germany. If you would cut literally every social service, people would be outraged. That’s insane. Nobody ever has meant it like that here in Germany, and there’s been quite some talk about it. ONLY the offices who deal with work-related insurance and benefits are meant. Damn. To think that UBI would replace health care… does this dude really live in Germany? I honestly can’t imagine it, or he has a very disconnected way of living here.

    If someone would come and tell our society… “Here’s an universal income, but overall, you get way less money”… he would get laughs. Because everyone would think he’s just making an obvious joke. Nobody would take it serious. I have no idea what this dude is talking about. You know, at least from a German perspective.

    Isn’t Germany’s so-called “universal healthcare” actually just compulsory insurance, where many residents are required to pay hundreds a month to a private company which still doesn’t cover everything

    What you pay is based on your income. If you don’t have income, you don’t pay anything. If you have a moderate income, you contribute moderately. If you have more income, you pay more. And no matter who you are, if you need health care, you get it.

    What do you mean with “it doesn’t cover everything”? If you have a car crash and are in the hospital for 2 years (!), you don’t pay anything.

    • Arthur BesseOPA
      41·
      2 years ago

      If you don’t have income, you don’t pay anything. If you have a moderate income, you contribute moderately. If you have more income, you pay more.

      Does that apply to the 11.8 million residents who aren’t German citizens?

      And no matter who you are, if you need health care, you get it.

      What happens to people who allow their compulsory insurance to lapse (eg, by missing payments)? Don’t people sometimes end up getting the minimum-necessary emergency care but also acquiring substantial debt with it, like in the US?

      (I do think the healthcare outcomes in Germany are better overall, but I don’t think Germany’s health care system is actually much more “universal” than the US currently.)

      Nobody here would accept anything like the UBI he’s talking about. And I’ve not seen anyone talk about UBI like that in Germany.

      Are you sure? Look at this table listing numerous German UBI proposals, and hit ctrl-f and search for the word “replace”. Almost all of them actually involve replacing existing social programs.

      This document is pretty old but is still prominently linked from the the Netzwerk Grundeinkommen, who i think remains a major force in the UBI movement. If there are some UBI proposals that explicitly reject cutting existing social programs to fund themselves, I haven’t seen them. All of the ones with serious political inertia that I’ve looked at seem to match the description in the original article.

      • Stoned_Ape
        21·
        2 years ago

        Does that apply to the 11.8 million residents who aren’t German citizens?

        Of course. Very much of course. This is absolutely normal and expected in Germany, and if it would be any other way, people would be outraged. And I’m not exaggerating. I’m not sure if people from the US or other (socially bad) places can believe that.

        What happens to people who allow their compulsory insurance to lapse (eg, by missing payments)? Don’t people sometimes end up getting the minimum-necessary emergency care but also acquiring substantial debt with it, like in the US?

        Never heard of one single example. I think this is extremely rare, and it has to be some really fucked up sitaution where you did everything wrong that can be done wrong.

        Are you sure? Look at this table listing numerous German UBI proposals, and hit ctrl-f and search for the word “replace”. Almost all of them actually involve replacing existing social programs.

        As I said, it’s about replacing needless bureaucracy. It’s not the payments that are to be cut. It’s not the social service that is to be cut. Just the way of distribution. It’s a simplification and streamlining, not a reduction. It’s a gain for people who receive it.

        If there are some UBI proposals that explicitly reject cutting existing social programs to fund themselves, I haven’t seen them.

        None of the UBI proposals explain their funding that way. This is a big misunderstanding from the author. If that is the understanding of the author, he has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about, and has no clue of German society.

        • Arthur BesseOPA
          31·
          2 years ago

          If you don’t have income, you don’t pay anything.

          Does that apply to the 11.8 million residents who aren’t German citizens?

          Of course. Very much of course. This is absolutely normal and expected in Germany, and if it would be any other way, people would be outraged.

          That was a rhetorical question. In reality, no, non-citizens who can’t afford payments on their private health insurance (many/most of whom don’t even qualify to pay for the so-called “public” options) can have their residence permits revoked and be deported.

          As I said, it’s about replacing needless bureaucracy. It’s not the payments that are to be cut. It’s not the social service that is to be cut. Just the way of distribution.

          It is social services (including some payments) that are proposed to be cut. Did you ctrl-f “replace” on that table i linked, and see all the things they’re talking about cutting? The notion that replacing working social programs with UBI will “replace bureaucracy” and not reduce the quality of outcomes for the poorest people is absurd. As the linked article says:

          From a social welfare point of view, the substitution of social programs with market-based and charitable provision of everything from health to housing, from child support to old-age assistance, clearly creates a multi-tier system in which the poorest may be able to afford some housing and health care, but clearly much less than the rich — most importantly, with no guarantee that the income will be sufficient for their actual need for health care, child care, education, housing, and other needs, which would be available only by way of for-profit markets and private charities.

          • Stoned_Ape
            21·
            2 years ago

            That was a rhetorical question.

            It should be a real one, because you don’t know how it is. You are misinformed. Extremely misinformed.

            In reality, no, non-citizens who can’t afford payments on their private health insurance (many/most of whom don’t even qualify to pay for the so-called “public” options) can have their residence permits revoked and be deported.

            You very obviously have no idea how Germany works. I seriously can’t overstate how ridiculous and wrong this statement is. This is so fucked up and off the rails… holy shit.

            • Arthur BesseOPA
              21·
              2 years ago

              I think this is one of the relevant statutes that links up-to-date health insurance payments with immigration status?

              • Stoned_Ape
                1·
                2 years ago

                You literally just linked to applicable law and asked me if that is applicable law. Just make your point. But better make it a good and informed one, and not just one based on your misconceptions and a machine translation.

                • Arthur BesseOPA
                  21·
                  2 years ago

                  What do you think my misconception is exactly? Do you think this site’s description of the situation regarding compulsory health insurance is also mistaken, or is it saying something different than I am?

                  • Stoned_Ape
                    2·
                    2 years ago

                    A very simple answer: Yes, you need insurance. And yes, it will be paid for you if you can’t pay it yourself. If you are a resident (not a visitor), you always get it. Always. Believe me.

                    Dude, you’re simply grasping straws. I asked you to make a point, and you chose to ignore that, because you don’t have one. I already told you. You are faaaaaaaaaaaar off the rails.

                    I’m sorry, but I have the feeling that you are unable to believe that the US is in contrast to other countries a cluster fuck. There are a lot of problems in Europe and Germany, but health care is not one of them. At least not in the sense you’re trying to argue here. There’s room for improvement, but the health care system of Germany is a few levels above the situation in the US.

                    I’m sorry. I hope you can acknowledge reality and find some motivation in there to improve the situation in the US. Because everyone should have universal healthcare, on the whole planet.