Now someone that’s LGBTQ+ and just trying to fit in gets singled out.
allows lawyers to be present
Doesn’t say requires here. So the rich kids get their “full” representation and as a result probably get away with abuse more often than not.
Seriously, he makes essentially no good decisions. Every now and then he throws a bone to some minority group but his driver is causing pain for the marginalized.
Now someone that’s LGBTQ+ and just trying to fit in gets singled out.
How so, do you imagine that being LGBTQ+ makes you more likely to accuse fellow students or faculty of sexual assault? Thus singling them out because they have to recount their accusation to a closed hearing, in a way that can be subject to questioning by a representative for the person they accused, but only questions approved by the faculty member functioning as a judge analog?
Doesn’t say requires here. So the rich kids get their “full” representation and as a result probably get away with abuse more often than not.
Rich kid gets a lawyer, poor kid gets a faculty advisor trained in the process. Process is not a courtroom and thus much of criminal law experience doesn’t apply.
I suppose it would have been better under the Biden/Obama guidelines where the accused doesn’t need to know what exactly they’ve been accused of or by who, what evidence will be brought against them, what the process is supposed to look like or how faculty have been trained to follow it and any lawyer they might have can explicitly be kept out of the process?
Now someone that’s LGBTQ+ and just trying to fit in gets singled out.
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from live hearings.
Doesn’t say requires here.
Hey, I would also prefer if it did. It’s not like I believe Trump actually cares for fairness. Probably just broken clock being right twice a day. These changes happen to make it better than it was, though not perfect by any means.
So the rich kids get their “full” representation and as a result probably get away with abuse more often than not.
I think you are exaggerating a bit. Most people can scrape enough money for a lawyer when their future depends on it and expensive lawyer, while giving rich kids an advantage, does not usually decide the outcome like they do in TV shows. Trials are about finding the truth.
Seriously, he makes essentially no good decisions. Every now and then he throws a bone to some minority group but his driver is causing pain for the marginalized.
And here comes my original point. Being unable to discuss the policy on its merit rather than by who it was proposed by.
I don’t mean to fan the flames, but if trials were indeed about finding the truth, trump himself would already have been jailed or worse long ago. But we don’t live in such a perfect or ideal world.
My friend said it best when he brought up a point one day that “it’s scary to think that in court, it’s more about whoever can argue their case better that wins.” And I have to agree with him on that. (Not that it matters but he is a level-headed highly-educated doctor, not md but in biotech)
I get that you’re trying to be fair with your points about the accused having their rights and a life of their own that can be ruined, but try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you: how would you feel about having less protections and having to face them in a public court where public opinion is more likely than not than not to be against you?
In that instance, getting by with an affordable lawyer would be better than none, but let’s not kid ourselves. Big corporations don’t shell out millions on attorneys to lose in court, so it makes sense that more money equals better odds in court.
try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you
Easy, I’ll just remember the time that my director told me I was not allowed to discuss salary with coworkers. That is against federal law and workplace protections.
When I called the NLRB to report it, they basically said they could file the complaint and bring charges. They were honest but evasive regarding the chances of a complaint against a company this big going anywhere and as nice as they could be in telling me without telling me that whistleblower protections would not save my job.
I don’t mean to fan the flames, but if trials were indeed about finding the truth, trump himself would already have been jailed or worse long ago. But we don’t live in such a perfect or ideal world
I don’t disagree there but that is an extreme case rather then the common trial.
public court
It is not a public court. It is about the right to face the accuser and cross examine them (ask them questions). The only parties required to be present is the panel, the accuser, the accused and their lawyers if they have them.
so it makes sense that more money equals better odds in court.
Yeah, I admitted as much in the first post. But large corporations routinely loose to small guys with cheap lawyers. The quality of lawyers only matter when the case is close (unclear evidence). Which again isn’t perfect but better than any of the alternative.
I get that you’re trying to be fair with your points about the accused having their rights and a life of their own that can be ruined, but try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you: how would you feel about having less protections and having to face them in a public court where public opinion is more likely than not than not to be against you?
Again, what is the alternative? Just fuck it, judge people based on vibes? The lives being ruined is not hypothetical, it happened multiple times.
And again, maybe I would be more sympathetic if the original Title IX included harsh penalties for false accusations to deter them. But it was the opposite. Prosecutors refused to even apply the light penalties that exist for perjury.
And again, maybe I would be more sympathetic if the original Title IX included harsh penalties for false accusations to deter them.
The original Title IX didn’t say anything about accusations of sexual assault, at all. It literally just sad that federally funded educational programs could not discriminate with respect to sex. The interpretation that that included sports programs or similar extracurriculars came later, the interpretation that that requires a parallel court-like system for adjudicating sexual assault allegations by students under a looser standard than actual courts came even later.
The quality of lawyers only matter when the case is close (unclear evidence).
Given that the single greatest hurdle to gaining convictions in rape cases are the lack of witnesses, usually limited to the accuser and the accused, I imagine a good many rape cases, Title IX or otherwise, are largely decided by the relative quality of the lawyers involved.
largely decided by the relative quality of the lawyers involved.
I am not convinced that is true but let’s say it is. How much worse would that be, if lawyers were not involved? At least the difference between how convincing an expensive and cheap lawyers are is not really that big. Being convincing is a job requirement. Remove them and you decide guilt in these cases entirely based on how sympathetic and outspoken the accuser and accused are.
You clearly have no idea how harrowing a rape trial is for the victim, how few convictions there are proportionately and how underreported realise crimes are because of how awful and unsuccessful bringing a case to trial is for victims, or you wouldn’t be claiming that bringing that into the principal’s office of your local K12 school and your local college is somehow a good thing.
For every 100 reported to police, about 13 get sent to a prosecutor (the rest being dropped due to lack of evidence, strong contradictory evidence, inability to identify a culprit, that sort of thing) about 10 of which result in a charge and 7 in a conviction, prosecution and conviction rates not radically out of line with other crimes. Prosecutors only try cases they think have a good chance of being successful (meaning they don’t think the evidence is good enough in about a quarter of cases sent to them), and the standard for criminal trials is beyond a reasonable doubt. That 13 is a bit lower than other crimes, but not radically so. Most stats you see implying it’s much worse (like an order of magnitude worse) are essentially using a fudge factor for unreported rapes as though the criminal justice system can even hypothetically do anything about an unreported rape.
Considering that the standard for a criminal trial is “beyond a reasonable doubt” while the standard for a Title IX hearing is at strictest “clear and convincing” and is often “a preponderance of the evidence” (aka slightly more likely than not), the rate of being found liable in a Title IX hearing is much higher, though not as high as it was when some schools used training said that women never lie but men will say whatever they have to to get their way, the accused didn’t need to be told exactly what they were being accused of or what evidence they needed a defense for and an accuser’s testimony could not be questioned.
EDIT: Just to point out how ridiculous accounting for “unreported” rapes is, if every time a rape was reported to law enforcement the accused was summarily executed without any process of any kind, just accusation->death, the “conviction rate” would still be at most ten percent.
Me: reporting, prosecution and conviction rates are disastrously low.
You: that’s because they don’t come forward much, cases aren’t taken to court and men are found not guilty, therefore none of those men are guilty.
You need a higher standard of proof to put someone in jail, but this is just chucking them out of the same institution as their rape victim, and kids get chucked out of school for just punching someone, without lawyers being involved. Just move the guy on. That’s all.
You say that as if I want to do it for shits and giggles.
Yes, I would love for that to be unnecessary. For people to just look at a person and be able to accurately tell if they are guilty or not. That is not the world we live in.
So in absence of that, I want something to prevent innocent people being punished (to a reasonable degree). Nothing better than a (watered down) trial was invented as far as I know.
It’s just a school expulsion, not prison, and it’s well documented that women don’t go to trial because they know it will be them and their lives on trial, not the rapist, who will very very likely get off. Bringing all that into K12 is just bringing a set of scales that are tipped heavily in the rapist’s favor and a horrific experience for the victim into a school expulsion.
Trump knows the effect this will have, and I expect you do too, but you’re pretending not to. Admittedly Trump is clearly and publicly well practiced at using expensive lawyers to silence women who have been raped and sexually assaulted by him, and I can’t say the same about you, but use your brain and stop defending the Rapist in Chief for watering down consequences for rapists in education.
You are trying to pretend to some moral high ground with these comments, but what they boil down to is this:
“Everyone, please present to me fact based arguments that ignore the facts about the established goals and behavior about the person proposing these changes. THOSE facts are undesired.”
I disagree with your assessment of the legislation in any case, but you haven’t accepted similar arguments from anyone else, so I don’t see why you’d accept them from me.
It’s a shitty change that also comes from a shitty person.
We know trump serves only himself and his cronies. Ergo, any legislation from him is to serve himself or his cronies.
And you are incapable of hearing criticism of Trump without firing off about it. It’s relevant that the rich male rapist president is proposing changes that make it easier for rich male rapists to get away with it and trash their victims’ reputations when they speak up. These are his kind of people. He gets them. He protects them. Girls and others who have been raped? No, he just wants them to suffer in silence, shut up or be humiliated in public.
It’s relevant that the rich male rapist president is proposing changes that make it easier for rich male rapists to get away with it and trash their victims’ reputations when they speak up.
He’s not proposing changes. He’s rolling back the changes Biden made, which in turn mostly rolled back the 2018 changes made by Devos, most of which were either tied to basic notions of due process or were things people had won lawsuits over since the previous changes by the Obama admin.
You’re playing semantics over what counts and doesn’t count as change while the USA’s Rapist in Chief allows lawyers to obstruct school exclusion meetings. Did you conveniently forget that he (unsuccessfully) tried to sue his own rape victim for libel? Yes, of course he believes that wealthy men should be allowed to use high powered lawyers to cover up their crimes against women.
And you are incapable of hearing criticism of Trump without firing off about it.
You are delusional. I criticize Trump myself in multiple comments on this thread.
It’s relevant that the rich male rapist president is proposing changes that make it easier for rich male rapists to get away with it and trash their victims’ reputations when they speak up.
It is absolutely irrelevant who proposes changes when debating whether those changes are good or bad. Even Hitler enacted some good laws. Does not make him less Horrible person or excuse other things he did. But my whole complaint is that so many people are now unable/unwilling to discuss the actual policy on it’s own merit and you are proving me right.
Instead of forming your own opinion on the policy based on rational arguments, all you can do is “TrUmP bAd, PoLiCy MuSt Be BaD.”
changes that make it easier for rich male rapists to get away with it and trash their victims’ reputations when they speak up.
Because all I see is opportunities for rich boys’ lawyers the chance to disrupt a school exclusion meeting and turn it into a media circus debating the victim’s sex life in detail, and if you think that isn’t how that plays out, you haven’t been paying attention.
Your point is entirely based on trashing other people’s skepticism that the rapist president might not have young rape victims interests at heart, and I have to call out your gullability on that point. It’s absolutely not irrelevant that Trump himself is a rapist, and repeatedly insisting that it is defies logic.
Now someone that’s LGBTQ+ and just trying to fit in gets singled out.
Doesn’t say requires here. So the rich kids get their “full” representation and as a result probably get away with abuse more often than not.
Seriously, he makes essentially no good decisions. Every now and then he throws a bone to some minority group but his driver is causing pain for the marginalized.
How so, do you imagine that being LGBTQ+ makes you more likely to accuse fellow students or faculty of sexual assault? Thus singling them out because they have to recount their accusation to a closed hearing, in a way that can be subject to questioning by a representative for the person they accused, but only questions approved by the faculty member functioning as a judge analog?
Rich kid gets a lawyer, poor kid gets a faculty advisor trained in the process. Process is not a courtroom and thus much of criminal law experience doesn’t apply.
I suppose it would have been better under the Biden/Obama guidelines where the accused doesn’t need to know what exactly they’ve been accused of or by who, what evidence will be brought against them, what the process is supposed to look like or how faculty have been trained to follow it and any lawyer they might have can explicitly be kept out of the process?
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from live hearings.
Hey, I would also prefer if it did. It’s not like I believe Trump actually cares for fairness. Probably just broken clock being right twice a day. These changes happen to make it better than it was, though not perfect by any means.
I think you are exaggerating a bit. Most people can scrape enough money for a lawyer when their future depends on it and expensive lawyer, while giving rich kids an advantage, does not usually decide the outcome like they do in TV shows. Trials are about finding the truth.
And here comes my original point. Being unable to discuss the policy on its merit rather than by who it was proposed by.
I don’t mean to fan the flames, but if trials were indeed about finding the truth, trump himself would already have been jailed or worse long ago. But we don’t live in such a perfect or ideal world.
My friend said it best when he brought up a point one day that “it’s scary to think that in court, it’s more about whoever can argue their case better that wins.” And I have to agree with him on that. (Not that it matters but he is a level-headed highly-educated doctor, not md but in biotech)
I get that you’re trying to be fair with your points about the accused having their rights and a life of their own that can be ruined, but try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you: how would you feel about having less protections and having to face them in a public court where public opinion is more likely than not than not to be against you?
In that instance, getting by with an affordable lawyer would be better than none, but let’s not kid ourselves. Big corporations don’t shell out millions on attorneys to lose in court, so it makes sense that more money equals better odds in court.
Easy, I’ll just remember the time that my director told me I was not allowed to discuss salary with coworkers. That is against federal law and workplace protections.
When I called the NLRB to report it, they basically said they could file the complaint and bring charges. They were honest but evasive regarding the chances of a complaint against a company this big going anywhere and as nice as they could be in telling me without telling me that whistleblower protections would not save my job.
And I’m not even in a marginalized group.
I don’t disagree there but that is an extreme case rather then the common trial.
It is not a public court. It is about the right to face the accuser and cross examine them (ask them questions). The only parties required to be present is the panel, the accuser, the accused and their lawyers if they have them.
Yeah, I admitted as much in the first post. But large corporations routinely loose to small guys with cheap lawyers. The quality of lawyers only matter when the case is close (unclear evidence). Which again isn’t perfect but better than any of the alternative.
Again, what is the alternative? Just fuck it, judge people based on vibes? The lives being ruined is not hypothetical, it happened multiple times.
And again, maybe I would be more sympathetic if the original Title IX included harsh penalties for false accusations to deter them. But it was the opposite. Prosecutors refused to even apply the light penalties that exist for perjury.
The original Title IX didn’t say anything about accusations of sexual assault, at all. It literally just sad that federally funded educational programs could not discriminate with respect to sex. The interpretation that that included sports programs or similar extracurriculars came later, the interpretation that that requires a parallel court-like system for adjudicating sexual assault allegations by students under a looser standard than actual courts came even later.
Given that the single greatest hurdle to gaining convictions in rape cases are the lack of witnesses, usually limited to the accuser and the accused, I imagine a good many rape cases, Title IX or otherwise, are largely decided by the relative quality of the lawyers involved.
I am not convinced that is true but let’s say it is. How much worse would that be, if lawyers were not involved? At least the difference between how convincing an expensive and cheap lawyers are is not really that big. Being convincing is a job requirement. Remove them and you decide guilt in these cases entirely based on how sympathetic and outspoken the accuser and accused are.
You clearly have no idea how harrowing a rape trial is for the victim, how few convictions there are proportionately and how underreported realise crimes are because of how awful and unsuccessful bringing a case to trial is for victims, or you wouldn’t be claiming that bringing that into the principal’s office of your local K12 school and your local college is somehow a good thing.
For every 100 reported to police, about 13 get sent to a prosecutor (the rest being dropped due to lack of evidence, strong contradictory evidence, inability to identify a culprit, that sort of thing) about 10 of which result in a charge and 7 in a conviction, prosecution and conviction rates not radically out of line with other crimes. Prosecutors only try cases they think have a good chance of being successful (meaning they don’t think the evidence is good enough in about a quarter of cases sent to them), and the standard for criminal trials is beyond a reasonable doubt. That 13 is a bit lower than other crimes, but not radically so. Most stats you see implying it’s much worse (like an order of magnitude worse) are essentially using a fudge factor for unreported rapes as though the criminal justice system can even hypothetically do anything about an unreported rape.
Considering that the standard for a criminal trial is “beyond a reasonable doubt” while the standard for a Title IX hearing is at strictest “clear and convincing” and is often “a preponderance of the evidence” (aka slightly more likely than not), the rate of being found liable in a Title IX hearing is much higher, though not as high as it was when some schools used training said that women never lie but men will say whatever they have to to get their way, the accused didn’t need to be told exactly what they were being accused of or what evidence they needed a defense for and an accuser’s testimony could not be questioned.
EDIT: Just to point out how ridiculous accounting for “unreported” rapes is, if every time a rape was reported to law enforcement the accused was summarily executed without any process of any kind, just accusation->death, the “conviction rate” would still be at most ten percent.
Me: reporting, prosecution and conviction rates are disastrously low.
You: that’s because they don’t come forward much, cases aren’t taken to court and men are found not guilty, therefore none of those men are guilty.
You need a higher standard of proof to put someone in jail, but this is just chucking them out of the same institution as their rape victim, and kids get chucked out of school for just punching someone, without lawyers being involved. Just move the guy on. That’s all.
Your accusation->death line is hyperbole.
You say that as if I want to do it for shits and giggles.
Yes, I would love for that to be unnecessary. For people to just look at a person and be able to accurately tell if they are guilty or not. That is not the world we live in.
So in absence of that, I want something to prevent innocent people being punished (to a reasonable degree). Nothing better than a (watered down) trial was invented as far as I know.
It’s just a school expulsion, not prison, and it’s well documented that women don’t go to trial because they know it will be them and their lives on trial, not the rapist, who will very very likely get off. Bringing all that into K12 is just bringing a set of scales that are tipped heavily in the rapist’s favor and a horrific experience for the victim into a school expulsion.
Trump knows the effect this will have, and I expect you do too, but you’re pretending not to. Admittedly Trump is clearly and publicly well practiced at using expensive lawyers to silence women who have been raped and sexually assaulted by him, and I can’t say the same about you, but use your brain and stop defending the Rapist in Chief for watering down consequences for rapists in education.
Yeah, liars should be punished. There is however irony in that statement considering the current president…
Again, what the fuck.
Me: US people are incapable about talking about the actual policy without just bringing up who proposed it.
You: BuT tHe CuRrEnt PrEsIdEnT.
You are trying to pretend to some moral high ground with these comments, but what they boil down to is this:
“Everyone, please present to me fact based arguments that ignore the facts about the established goals and behavior about the person proposing these changes. THOSE facts are undesired.”
Yes, I am pointing out it is idiotic to assume everything an evil person says or does is evil or wrong.
Hitler pushed for animal welfare. Are we supposed to assume that was wrong and start torturing dogs because Hitler wanted animal welfare?
The policy is either good or bad. Whether it was proposed by Trump, Biden or Lincoln makes no difference to that.
The fact I have to spell this out for you is extremely concerning.
I disagree with your assessment of the legislation in any case, but you haven’t accepted similar arguments from anyone else, so I don’t see why you’d accept them from me.
It’s a shitty change that also comes from a shitty person.
We know trump serves only himself and his cronies. Ergo, any legislation from him is to serve himself or his cronies.
And you are incapable of hearing criticism of Trump without firing off about it. It’s relevant that the rich male rapist president is proposing changes that make it easier for rich male rapists to get away with it and trash their victims’ reputations when they speak up. These are his kind of people. He gets them. He protects them. Girls and others who have been raped? No, he just wants them to suffer in silence, shut up or be humiliated in public.
He’s not proposing changes. He’s rolling back the changes Biden made, which in turn mostly rolled back the 2018 changes made by Devos, most of which were either tied to basic notions of due process or were things people had won lawsuits over since the previous changes by the Obama admin.
You’re playing semantics over what counts and doesn’t count as change while the USA’s Rapist in Chief allows lawyers to obstruct school exclusion meetings. Did you conveniently forget that he (unsuccessfully) tried to sue his own rape victim for libel? Yes, of course he believes that wealthy men should be allowed to use high powered lawyers to cover up their crimes against women.
You are delusional. I criticize Trump myself in multiple comments on this thread.
It is absolutely irrelevant who proposes changes when debating whether those changes are good or bad. Even Hitler enacted some good laws. Does not make him less Horrible person or excuse other things he did. But my whole complaint is that so many people are now unable/unwilling to discuss the actual policy on it’s own merit and you are proving me right.
Instead of forming your own opinion on the policy based on rational arguments, all you can do is “TrUmP bAd, PoLiCy MuSt Be BaD.”
Which part of this are you on board with?
Because all I see is opportunities for rich boys’ lawyers the chance to disrupt a school exclusion meeting and turn it into a media circus debating the victim’s sex life in detail, and if you think that isn’t how that plays out, you haven’t been paying attention.
Your point is entirely based on trashing other people’s skepticism that the rapist president might not have young rape victims interests at heart, and I have to call out your gullability on that point. It’s absolutely not irrelevant that Trump himself is a rapist, and repeatedly insisting that it is defies logic.